.com.unity Forums - OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

.com.unity Forums (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/index.php)

- Space Empires: IV & V (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20)

- - OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=8684)

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by tbontob:
I don't know why they included Revelation in the Bible.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by Aloofi:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tbontob:
I don't know why they included Revelation in the Bible.

Yeah, and I don't know why they took only 4 of the 40 gospels existing when in 325 C.E. in Nicea they made what we know today as the New Testament.
Maybe to save paper? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <hr /></blockquote>Because they wanted to get a very specific message across, and so chose only those that relayed that message. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Because they wanted to get a very specific message across, and so chose only those that relayed that message. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It looks to me more like they chose the ONLY 4 that said that guy, what his name?, was born from a supernatural sperm injection instead of good o'l sex.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

I'm going to regret this....

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I am not sure what else I could have said that I did not say, as the Bible was written after the historical events it supposedly predicted (or more precisely, the parts that did the "predicting" were written after the fact, as not all of the Bible was written at the same time) <snip>

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
I'm going to regret this....

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I am not sure what else I could have said that I did not say, as the Bible was written after the historical events it supposedly predicted (or more precisely, the parts that did the "predicting" were written after the fact, as not all of the Bible was written at the same time) <snip>

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

You keep saying that, but in this entire thread you have never offered any evidence of it. If you have any evidence, I would like to see it, otherwise you cannot keep putting down Rags for his belief (and mine) that the Bible is true.<hr /></blockquote>When do you think the parts of the Bible that supposedly make predictions about the future were written?

A very basic understanding of ancient history would show you that the Bible (all of the various parts of it) was written well after every historical event it supposedly predicted. As I am not a historian, I can not give you a bunch of commonly accepted dates off the top of my head. If I had a sufficient history book and a scanner, I could show you some dates. I think that the main problem here is that you guys are confused about or do not know about the basics of the historical timeline.

You and Rags have shown no evidence of these supposed predictions. All that Rags ever did was to say that the Bible predicted some events. Him just saying that does not make it true. I am still waiting on some actual evidence to be shown here.

And again, neither of you has given any convincing reasons on why Christianity is right and the vast majority of humans that have ever lived (as Christians make up less than a fraction of a percent (though that is probably overly generous) of the humans that have lived) are all wrong about their religious beliefs.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Also, where are you getting your facts from about the predictions the Bible has made?

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

About that majority thing.
Yes, the Christians aren't in any majority of the population.
But remember that today more people lives than there has ever existed in all of mankinds history , added up in atotal over time!

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
When do you think the parts of the Bible that supposedly make predictions about the future were written?

A very basic understanding of ancient history would show you that the Bible (all of the various parts of it) was written well after every historical event it supposedly predicted. As I am not a historian, I can not give you a bunch of commonly accepted dates off the top of my head. If I had a sufficient history book and a scanner, I could show you some dates. I think that the main problem here is that you guys are confused about or do not know about the basics of the historical timeline.

You and Rags have shown no evidence of these supposed predictions. All that Rags ever did was to say that the Bible predicted some events. Him just saying that does not make it true. I am still waiting on some actual evidence to be shown here.

And again, neither of you has given any convincing reasons on why Christianity is right and the vast majority of humans that have ever lived (as Christians make up less than a fraction of a percent (though that is probably overly generous) of the humans that have lived) are all wrong about their religious beliefs.

I have not tried to make any statements about particular predictions, in fact I have not posted to this thread before. I am merely pointing out that you continually insist that the Bible's predictions were always written after the fact, yet you show no evidence of that.

As to the percentage of people who are Christian, I do not have information about that for all people who have ever lived thoughout time, but I do have information for the current day (or at least 2000) and you might be surprised. According to ReligiousTolerance.org about 33% of the population of the earth claim Christianity. I actually did not make a statement about the correctness or incorrectness of anyone's religious beliefs, but you certainly have.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by Aloofi:
Hell, somebody rated me 1 star again! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I bet it was someone in the Moon thread. Everytime I say something politically incorrect I get a bad rating.
Lol, I think I understand now what Fyron was feeling when he started this thread........

I want 5 stars!
*runs crying into the night*

Hah. Everytime you say something in these off topic threads, a person is not going to like what you say. Those that agree ith what you say, will not bother to vote, the other will want to show you they do not agree so they vote and give you a low rating.
Look at my rating http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Anyway, i like OT discussions on a board with great diversity like this one.
Always provides fireworks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

You and Rags have shown no evidence of these supposed predictions. All that Rags ever did was to say that the Bible predicted some events. Him just saying that does not make it true. I am still waiting on some actual evidence to be shown here.

Fyron, this contridicts all arguments you provided against me. By you saying this, you say that your arguments are no good either. As you have provided no proof as of yet. Therefore, I would suggest that you refrain from saying that I am wrong just because you say so until you provide solid evidence.
If I get some extra free time, I will pull up some dates for you to prove that events were indeed written in advance. But that is providing I get the time to do so.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
I have not tried to make any statements about particular predictions, in fact I have not posted to this thread before. I am merely pointing out that you continually insist that the Bible's predictions were always written after the fact, yet you show no evidence of that.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Fyron, also going back to this...

Quote:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Fyron, the only reason I kept coming back to offer counter arguments was because you were putting words in my mouth, or computer in this case.

No I did not. Again, you are wrong. bwhahahah.<hr /></blockquote>Actually you did. Thus you are wrong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif You said towards the end of the Last thread that as a Christian I only accept only the New testiment as true. That is totally not the case. 2nd Timothy 3:16 says that "All scripture is inspired of God and benificial." Therefore, I take the whole Bible seriously.

I will work on those dates sometime whenever I have the free time.

[ March 05, 2003, 23:08: Message edited by: Ragnarok ]

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by DavidG:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
I have not tried to make any statements about particular predictions, in fact I have not posted to this thread before. I am merely pointing out that you continually insist that the Bible's predictions were always written after the fact, yet you show no evidence of that.

Ture but some have. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I would think that if someone makes the bold claim the bible predicts the future then they should be the ones to provide some evidence. Otherwise I could make all kinds of wild statements and then defend them with "well you can't prove me wrong..."?<hr /></blockquote>I only (and reluctantly) started posting to this thread because of the fact that Fyron insisted on arguing without proof that the Bible's predictions were always written after the fact. I accept his right to believe that, but I have a problem with his insistance that there is no possibility that another point of view could be correct. You are welcome to make any wild statements you want. I will only refute them if I have evidence to the contrary. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Fyron's a good guy. opinionated, argumentative, and so full of himself that he had to start a thread about his own frickin reputation.. but a good guy.

Ratings are stupid. most of what i say is stupid, so i continually ask people to rate me at a 1, so that newbies wont make the mistake of taking me seriously.

and thats most peoples problem. they take themselves to seriously. nothing you say or do is that significant, that you should lose any sleep over it. nothing someone says to you is that important. peoples beliefs are not that important. agree to disagree. agrue your point, but dont think everyone else should feel the same way.

diversity is the spice of life. lighten up.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

It would seem that Fyron has become Atheism's first preacher.

How can you turn a religionless belief into a religion? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Puke > You are hereby the first one I ever has rated, you got a five from me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Fyron: As to whether or not a person is willing to accept the claim that the writers of scripture were predicting (or more accurately from a Judeo-Christian-Islamic perspective were given knowledge of) the future:

Many ask that proof be provided to show that the predictions were written down prior to the unfolding of events, and may insist that this is the only way of validating that the prediction event occurred. Unfortunately this demand of proof is (IMHO, in the humble opinion of western legal process, in the humble opinion of scientific method) to be borne not by the author, but rather the critics of the author must bear the burden of proof. That is to say, unless you have a good/solid reason to claim the author was fraudulent, you just can't call him a liar! (i.e. if the scripture in question was written three decades ago as proven by carbon dating, but claims to profess an event that happened 1000 years ago, then you can claim that the scripture is fraudulent - or is a copy of an earlier document).

Then, to impose that a document meets todays' standards of veracity is unfair and somewhat modernist/arrogant. The reality is that most ancient documents were not immediately transcribed, but were often (in most cases?) carried by oral tradition for centuries with incredible accuracy. Have you read the Odessy? Iliad? These were regularily recited verbatim and in their entirety from memory by Greek performers, sans mistakes, due to i) good memories that didn't use print as a crutch, ii) poetic mechanisms and meters that were self correcting, and iii) a public knowledge of the material that would correct any luckless bard who was unfortunate enough to mess up on the story during a public performance. Written copies of these plays were created, but the written word was not the repository of knowledge - peoples brains and corrective devices were!!!

just my couple of cents

[ March 05, 2003, 23:55: Message edited by: jimbob ]

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by Ruatha:
About that majority thing.
Yes, the Christians aren't in any majority of the population.
But remember that today more people lives than there has ever existed in all of mankinds history , added up in atotal over time!

Actually, that is not true.

Quote:

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
You and Rags have shown no evidence of these supposed predictions. All that Rags ever did was to say that the Bible predicted some events. Him just saying that does not make it true. I am still waiting on some actual evidence to be shown here.

And again, neither of you has given any convincing reasons on why

Quote:

As to the percentage of people who are Christian, I do not have information about that for all people who have ever lived thoughout time, but I do have information for the current day (or at least 2000) and you might be surprised. According to ReligiousTolerance.org about 33% of the population of the earth claim Christianity. I actually did not make a statement about the correctness or incorrectness of anyone's religious beliefs, but you certainly have

That is still 67% of the people on the planet that get to go to Hell because they are not Christians.

Before somewhere around 1 AD (which is an innacurate date anyways, so an exact value is irrelevant and also not very possible), there were 0 Christians. So, all the people that lived and died before that time got to go to Hell, according to Christianity.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />You and Rags have shown no evidence of these supposed predictions. All that Rags ever did was to say that the Bible predicted some events. Him just saying that does not make it true. I am still waiting on some actual evidence to be shown here.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
Fyron, also going back to this... <blockquote>quote:<hr /> <blockquote>quote:<hr />Fyron, the only reason I kept coming back to offer counter arguments was because you were putting words in my mouth, or computer in this case.

No I did not. Again, you are wrong. bwhahahah.<hr /></blockquote>Actually you did. Thus you are wrong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif You said towards the end of the Last thread that as a Christian I only accept only the New testiment as true. That is totally not the case. 2nd Timothy 3:16 says that "All scripture is inspired of God and benificial." Therefore, I take the whole Bible seriously.

I will work on those dates sometime whenever I have the free time.<hr /></blockquote>No I did not. I said that the New Testament was the important part of the Bible to Christians. I never once said that Christians do not accept the Old Testament at all.

Quote:

2nd Timothy 3:16 says that "All scripture is inspired of God and benificial." Therefore, I take the whole Bible seriously.

This is very circular reasoning. You can not use something to define or defend itself.

Quote:

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DavidG:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
I have not tried to make any statements about particular predictions, in fact I have not posted to this thread before. I am merely pointing out that you continually insist that the Bible's predictions were always written after the fact, yet you show no evidence of that.

Quote:

Originally posted by Puke:
Fyron's a good guy. opinionated, argumentative, and so full of himself that he had to start a thread about his own frickin reputation.. but a good guy.

Ratings are stupid. most of what i say is stupid, so i continually ask people to rate me at a 1, so that newbies wont make the mistake of taking me seriously.

and thats most peoples problem. they take themselves to seriously. nothing you say or do is that significant, that you should lose any sleep over it. nothing someone says to you is that important. peoples beliefs are not that important. agree to disagree. agrue your point, but dont think everyone else should feel the same way.

diversity is the spice of life. lighten up.

My point is that Rags is wrong about the predictive capabilities of the Bible. That is what I have been arguing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Quote:

Originally posted by TerranC:
It would seem that Fyron has become Atheism's first preacher.

How can you turn a religionless belief into a religion? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

No. Preachers use divine revelation when they preach to people, not logical argument. I have done no preaching.

Quote:

Originally posted by jimbob:
Fyron: As to whether or not a person is willing to accept the claim that the writers of scripture were predicting (or more accurately from a Judeo-Christian-Islamic perspective were given knowledge of) the future:

Many ask that proof be provided to show that the predictions were written down prior to the unfolding of events, and may insist that this is the only way of validating that the prediction event occurred. Unfortunately this demand of proof is (IMHO, in the humble opinion of western legal process, in the humble opinion of scientific method) to be borne not by the author, but rather the critics of the author must bear the burden of proof. That is to say, unless you have a good/solid reason to claim the author was fraudulent, you just can't call him a liar! (i.e. if the scripture in question was written three decades ago as proven by carbon dating, but claims to profess an event that happened 1000 years ago, then you can claim that the scripture is fraudulent - or is a copy of an earlier document).

Then, to impose that a document meets todays' standards of veracity is unfair and somewhat modernist/arrogant. The reality is that most ancient documents were not immediately transcribed, but were often (in most cases?) carried by oral tradition for centuries with incredible accuracy. Have you read the Odessy? Iliad? These were regularily recited verbatim and in their entirety from memory by Greek performers, sans mistakes, due to i) good memories that didn't use print as a crutch, ii) poetic mechanisms and meters that were self correcting, and iii) a public knowledge of the material that would correct any luckless bard who was unfortunate enough to mess up on the story during a public performance. Written copies of these plays were created, but the written word was not the repository of knowledge - peoples brains and corrective devices were!!!

just my couple of cents

I know perfectly well about oral narration in the ancient world. Historians have ideas about when such stories started being told. The stories of the Bible were not being told before the historical events the Bible supposedly predicts, but afterwards.

Quote:

Unfortunately this demand of proof is (IMHO, in the humble opinion of western legal process, in the humble opinion of scientific method) to be borne not by the author, but rather the critics of the author must bear the burden of proof.

If you write something down that makes claims, you have to back those claims up for them to be credible. Otherwise, anyone is fully within their rights (even many millennia ago) to call the author a liar/fraud/whatever.

[ March 06, 2003, 00:36: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Lighten UP people....

***
Ten reasons why beer is better than religion:

1. No one will kill you for not drinking beer.

2. Beer doesn't try to ruin your sex life.

3. Wars are not fought over beer.

4. They don't force beer on minors who can't think for themselves.

5. When you have a beer, you don't knock on other people's doors trying to give it away.

6. Nobody's ever been burned at the stake, hanged, or tortured over his brand of beer.

7. You don't have to wait 2000+ years for a second beer.

8. There are laws saying beer labels can't lie to you.

9. You can prove you have a beer.

10. If you become addicted to beer, there are Groups to help you escape.
***

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Nice list Wardad.
I knew beer is the only saviour http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by Wardad:

6. Nobody's ever been burned at the stake, hanged, or tortured over his brand of beer.

Don't hangovers count as torture?

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
That is still 67% of the people on the planet that get to go to Hell because they are not Christians.

Before somewhere around 1 AD (which is an innacurate date anyways, so an exact value is irrelevant and also not very possible), there were 0 Christians. So, all the people that lived and died before that time got to go to Hell, according to Christianity.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
That is still 67% of the people on the planet that get to go to Hell because they are not Christians.

Before somewhere around 1 AD (which is an innacurate date anyways, so an exact value is irrelevant and also not very possible), there were 0 Christians. So, all the people that lived and died before that time got to go to Hell, according to Christianity.

You are avoiding the point on this one. You specifically said that Christianity only comprised a fraction of a percent of people. I merely refuted that with documentation.

Further, your statement of the fate of those who lived before Christ shows a lack of understanding of the Christian faith, which is based upon Judaism. Traditional Christian belief is that prior to the coming of Christ, people were responsible to meet the requirements of that religion.

Additionally, I have made no statements as to what I believe to be the fate of anyone. I do not claim to be God, nor do I pretend to have any control over the eternal fate of anyone.<hr /></blockquote>I said a fraction of a percent of the people that have ever lived, not that are currently living. I am inlcuding all of our line, not just the people that have been living in the Last few 1000 years.

Very few people were followers of Judaism, so that doesn't really change a whole lot.

I never said you made statements as to people's fate. But Hell is the fate for non-Christians according to Christianity (after the alleged coming of Christ).

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Things are not heavy in here, so lightening them would not have that great of an effect.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

It's the concept.

2 sides to a coin.

Your on one I am on the other.

There is no inbetween.

I see it all the time everywhere else. I do not want that to take over here.

This is my fav. part of the internet. Where I can chat with people about games, books, movies and sweet tea. Dicussions always involved learning new ideas.

I do believe that the Politiks , etc... should be in another forum if their just back and forth arguements. I am not learning anything except that I do not want to get involved. Both sides are entrenched. So they become like a stagnic pond. There is no flow.

Look at the recent threads.... There all the same.

They start off as an open ended converstation and then divide into two sides with no movement. It's like a broken record.

Sorry it's how I feel.

And the great thing about here is that I can post it.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Tesco, I would tend to agree. From here on out I think I'm going to agree to disagree. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
There is going ot be no changing of minds in this discussion so what is the point of it all? I strongly believe the way that I have stated and nothing will change my mind. There is no hard evidence to Fyrons arguments to defer my beliefs. So from here on out do not expect me to partake in any conversations on this matter, as it will just lead to chaos.
But Fyron, for my closing statements I would like to ask that you not assume that just because I am christian, that I believe certain ways. You don't know at all, or even remotely close to how I believe. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Now, how about them Pacers?! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

There are basic ideals that define Christianity Rags. I am just going along with those.

If you really want to believe that the Bible predicted events that happened before it was written, I guess there is not a whole lot I can do to convince you otherwise. You have no hard evidence to support your claims, so their is not much to argue against there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Judge from the Simpsons:
Religion must stay 500 yards away from science at all times

I agree!

[ March 06, 2003, 02:13: Message edited by: Captain Kwok ]

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

There are basic ideals that define Christianity Rags. I am just going along with those.

In general Christianity these are the beliefs. But I'm not a general Christian. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Quote:

You have no hard evidence to support your claims, so their is not much to argue against there.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Nope guess not. But not much to argue against you either as you have no hard evidence to show me. You claim you have, just as I have claimed. But claims alone are not enough.

But now that this is over. At least for me... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I notice you took your rating system off.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

A look at the historical timeline is all the evidence I need to tell you that the Bible was written after the historical events it supposedly predicts. How many times must I repeat this before you will start noticing it? 50? 100? My evidence is basic historical facts.

I'd like to see one of these historical "facts". I'd be very surprised that anyone on earth could make an accurate claim on when any ancient text was originally put to paper. Certainly historians can carbon date the earliest document found to date, but this simply does not rule out the existance of an earlier document. That said, I personally believe that the oral tradition is as good as the written tradition in many cultures. If you want, I'll dig up some "expert opinions" from the Classics department that agree. We have very few contemporary documents regarding Julius Ceasar or Alexander, yet the transcripts that exist are 1) widely regarded as being resonably accurate (even though the earliest surviving documents are easily 200 years post-Julius or post-Alexander) and 2) often passed down originally by oral tradition prior to their "codification".

Quote:

My point is that Rags is wrong about the predictive capabilities of the Bible. That is what I have been arguing.

It seems this is so only because you have already decided that this is so. If you believe that accurate prediction is impossible, then we're already done here. But not on the basis that we have reason to doubt what happened a few thousand years ago, but because you have a world view that excludes the possibility that the writers were not lying.

Quote:

The stories of the Bible were not being told before the historical events the Bible supposedly predicts, but afterwards.

But why do you believe this? If it's because of an expert opinion, please, for your own sake, check your source(s). If you have some good sources (or if you're a historian yourself) then please, share and enlighten us all!! If it's because you believe that anything supernatural is impossible, then it really isn't about the authorship at all.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

When you are talking about centuries to millennia of time difference, a few years (even decades) do not matter.

Don't be so literal. Would you prefer if I used the term "composed" instead of "written"? I was not necessarily refering to the actual act of writing them down, but when they were created.

Quote:

It seems this is so only because you have already decided that this is so. If you believe that accurate prediction is impossible, then we're already done here. But not on the basis that we have reason to doubt what happened a few thousand years ago, but because you have a world view that excludes the possibility that the writers were not lying.

They were not necessarily lying, so much as distorting the facts just enough to get their message across.

I have seen 0 evidence that the stories were (insert verb of choice relating to being written/composed/created) before the events took place, and plenty of evidence that they were (insert verb of choice relating to being written/composed/created) after they took place.

Quote:

But why do you believe this? If it's because of an expert opinion, please, for your own sake, check your source(s). If you have some good sources (or if you're a historian yourself) then please, share and enlighten us all!! If it's because you believe that anything supernatural is impossible, then it really isn't about the authorship at all.

As I already said, I am not a historian, and I do not have any history books at present. So, I can not at present cite you sources that will prove what I am saying about when these things occured. I am certain that if I spent the time to find them, I could find more of them than you ever wanted to see.

I know this because I have learned enough about ancient history to be able to place things in a relative timeline, and the (insert verb of choice relating to being written/composed/created) of the stories/books of the Bible happened well after the events that Rags posted in the original thread that the Bible supposedly predicted.

Quote:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You have no hard evidence to support your claims, so their is not much to argue against there.

Nope guess not. But not much to argue against you either as you have no hard evidence to show me. You claim you have, just as I have claimed. But claims alone are not enough. <hr /></blockquote>The difference is that if I wanted to, I could find enough hard evidence to support my statements from reliable sources, as they are factual. You, on the other hand, would not be able to because your claims are not factual. I am sure you could find sources that make the same claims you have, but you could find sources making just about any claim you can think of.

Quote:

But now that this is over. At least for me... I notice you took your rating system off.

If you want to stop the debate, stop posting things that require responses. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Only one person that gave me a 1 rating fessed up to it. The other people have remained silent. If they are too cowardly to come forth, then there is no point in giving them the satisfaction of seeing my rating drop. Actually, it would probably be best if the rating system was disabled entirely. It serves no real purpose, except as a cheap shot for petty people that don't like people disagreeing with them.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I never said you made statements as to people's fate. But Hell is the fate for non-Christians according to Christianity (after the alleged coming of Christ).

As others have said, it is probably time to agree to disagree. All I ask is that you accept the possibility of other views. As for Hell being the fate of non-Christians, I look at it this way (different Christians look at it in many different ways, so I am only speaking for myself here):

Suppose for a moment that there is a God who created the universe and everything in it. In this small corner of the universe He created man on planet earth and gave man a free will so that God and man could experience a true relationship. Man rebelled against God and the relationship was broken. According to the Bible, the price of rebellion against God is death. Hell, meaning an eternity without God, became man's fate.

At this point God could have abandoned man and created someone else to have a relationship with. Instead, God chose to take the form of a man in the person of Jesus in order to pay the penalty (death) for man's rebellion (sin). When Jesus died and rose again, the curse of death was broken for those who would accept his gift of eternal life.

It is in this that I am trusting. I do not seek to condemn others, only to marvel at the grace of God that He has provided a way for me to have a relationship with Him, for I know that I am a sinful man who cannot possibly relate to God in my own strength. It is not for me to say who will have eternal life and who will not. If a person spends their whole life telling God that they want nothing to do with Him, what will become of them when they come face-to-face with Him?

As for those who have been faithful in other religions, I am thankful that I do not have to decide their fate. I believe that we are accountable for what has been revealed to us. God is both just and merciful, and I believe that when all is said and done, all will agree that His judgments are correct.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him." John 3:16,17

I am not trying to force this view on you, only to try to explain my view of eternity. You are welcome to agree or disagree.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

And from that follows that those that do not accept Christ will not get into heaven. Hence, a large majority of people get to go to Hell, assuming that Christianity is right.

Of course, no one has yet answered my question as to why Christianity (or whatever their personal belief system is) is right, and all other religions are wrong. What is so special/different about Christianity that makes everyone else wrong? How do you know that your religious beliefs are the right ones, and Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Australian Aboriginals, American Indians, non-converted-to-Christianity Africans, etc. are all wrong? And no quote from the Bible could possibly be a valid logical argument for this, as that would require very circular reasoning, which is a huge logical fallacy.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Hmmm... were to begin, were to begin.....

Well, I think wardad is right, I need some alcohol.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Fyron: That is the whole point of religion, it isn't about logic, it is about faith. Believing something you cannot be sure in because someting inside tells you it is right. You must understand this, as you show great faith in science.

I personally am not a christian, and find it, along with most organized religions, flawed and mostly a sham. But in the end it doesn't matter, I still choose to respect their beliefs because they could be right, I don't know, and there is no way for me to find out, and if it makes them feel a little better, and doesn't hurt anybody else, more power to them.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by ZeroAdunn:
Hmmm... were to begin, were to begin.....

Well, I think wardad is right, I need some alcohol.

Don't worry, I'm done. There is nothing else that needs to be said from my perspective. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by Alpha Kodiak:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ZeroAdunn:
Hmmm... were to begin, were to begin.....

Well, I think wardad is right, I need some alcohol.

Don't worry, I'm done. There is nothing else that needs to be said from my perspective. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>Because you are rigidly set in your ways and not open to new ideas.

Quote:

Something inside me (that thing called a brain) tells me that some of it is wrong. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I do not show faith in science as you meant it. There is a tremendous difference between science and religion, and faith does not apply to science (unless you do something dumb like turn science into a religion).

[ March 06, 2003, 06:32: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ruatha:
About that majority thing.
Yes, the Christians aren't in any majority of the population.
But remember that today more people lives than there has ever existed in all of mankinds history , added up in atotal over time!

Actually, that is not true.
<hr /></blockquote>Ah, Fyron. Now you do it again.
I haven't rated you but I can see why people rated you low.

You state a belife you have as a undisputable fact.
You give no arguments saying why this isn't true.

No one can actually say that it is absolutely true or not.
Many estimates ends up saying that it is true but it depends on how old the human race is and the population growth in prehistoric times.

I for one belive that this is so.
Actually it is one of the problems that those who belive in reincarnation has to explain (Altough they have produced several theories explaining it, very few says that the population growth problem is untrue)

Some links:

Reincarnation
Demography

Or:
Do the math yourself...
Methods of historical demography

Other references:
David Bishai, 'Can population growth rule out reincarnation? A model of circular migration', Journal of Scientific Exploration, vol. 14, no. 3, pp. 411-20, 2000

(Start Edit)
And some more:

http://www.globalchange.si.edu/image...y_worldpop.gif
(Image from the smithsonian institute)

A pedagogic site on world population growth.

(End Edit)

[ March 06, 2003, 09:49: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

It's a well known and documented historical fact that Jesus was into Slayer, Megadeth and Def Leppard.

I'll leave you all to draw your own conclusions.

Oh, and whoever talked about judging people by their shoes..? I agree. 90% of the time I find that people wearing big, solid boots (as casual shoes) are good people.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Rating system

* Ruler of The World
** Vice Roy
*** General
**** Captain
***** PFC

By these standards, I would guess the Fyron is RotW http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif HE IS!!!!

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

dogscoff he was also into line dancing.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by dogscoff:
It's a well known and documented historical fact that Jesus was into Slayer, Megadeth and Def Leppard.

It's also a known fact he liked Sepultura, at least their early work.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by minipol:
It's also a known fact he liked Sepultura, at least their early work.

Well, I don't think that guy ever existed, and if he did he should have been cruxified 20 times over for all the crimes his followers have done to the rest of humankind.
And Sepultura first album, the "Schizophrenia" was pretty good but the production quality was not up to the standars of the time. Only with "Beneath the Remains" they got a real piece of art. I would easily rate Beneath the remains as the best Metal album of 1989.

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

I just go 2 more Ratings of one star because of the Moon Hoax thread, so I'll follow Fyron taking my rating from public. I should have known better.
What was I thinking?
How could I say that the Moon landings were faked in a sci-fi forum? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
This is just like saying that the New Testament was faked in a christian forum...... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Lol, talk about faith....

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Quote:

Originally posted by Aloofi:
What was I thinking?
How could I say that the Moon landings were faked in a sci-fi forum? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
This is just like saying that the New Testament was faked in a christian forum...... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Lol, talk about faith....

Actually it's not quite the same Aloofi. As a person who believes in both the New testament and the moon landings I can see the difference in the two.

For my belief in the New Testament I have only my faith to rely on.

For the moon landings I have quantifiable, observable evidence and credible eyewitness testimony. Actually to disregard the moon landings as a hoax I would have to accept on faith the exsistance of a vast conspiracy and believe the claims of fakery which are quite easily seen to be irrational at best and out right dishonest at worst.

One giant leap of faith is quite enough for me thank you. I'll keep my faith in the New Testament and rely on the evidence for my acceptance of the fact of the moon landings. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Geoschmo

[ March 06, 2003, 14:18: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

I've read all the evidence that supports the stuff in the New Testament. There's quite a bit of it. But I've always taken it on faith that we went to the moon. I mean, it seems like we probably *might* be able to do it. I'm not really sure *why* we would want to though. (Yeah, yeah, some junk about competing with the Russians or something.) Anyways, yeah, if you have some evidence other than pictures of the side of the moon that we can't see, I'd like to see it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Personally, I am sure that they did land on the moon back in 1969. The cold war with Russia was still going strong at that time and I am sure the Russians (as well as anyone else with the capability) had telescopes tracking the lander and would have shouted out loud if the Americans had in fact gone for a quick spin round the earth, dicked about with the Van Halen belt (maybe air guitared to "Eruption") and then came home clutching a piece of pumice and saying "oooh, look what we found"

Re: OT of OT: Rating Fyron -- no longer possible

Fyron: No, you take Science on faith to be true. Because you can't prove any of it.

And your veiled insults towards others need to stop.