Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">With a comparison tool I have seen a lot of extreme changes, I need some time to get into this.
What's the reason for the unusual values (11,9, etc.)?

I agree if you intend to restructure everything, this will be a big task. If you lower the structure kT it will be harder to hit, but if it gets a hit then the component will be more vulnerable plus the overall armor effect of the ship will be lowered. The intention of hardened life support is to increase protection of the ship, like a kind of armor component. I mean, the higher the structure tonnage the easier to hit (like armor)... Wait a minute, now I recall why I (probably instinctively) never used hardened LS so far:
LS is an important component which needs to be protected by ARMOR, but it should not get the same ability to work like armor, because this would change it to an easy to hit component. This evaluation should be done with every other component, probably at the end we could come to the conclusion that hardened LS better should be removed, the structure tonnage of the important componants to be lowered if they are armor-like too high etc.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Errr, planet yards need to be improved, that's what I was complaining about, not Spacestation yards. The first facility on a planet has to be a yard, because you have downgraded the population modifiers extremely against proportions modifiers. But it still takes about 45 turns until you get the first small production rate bonus from the planet yard.
Another observation: Race setup has repair ability of 80%, 2 orbital SYs over the homeplanet (planet yard with "can repair 1 component per turn", usually works with 80% also...). I upgraded both orbital SYs in the same turn, but they get no repairs in the following turns -> scrrrrraaaaappppp !</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">i agree with you about the length of time it takes for a colony to build anything, takes forever. once colony is created it takes 10 YEARS to build a spaceyard on the planet. i have noticed that the reason for this is the construction penalty the planet recieves for having such a small population. when you start off with 1 million people you only get 5% of your actual construction rate. even once you get to 100 million you still only get 40% and that takes several years of moving population back and forth. for these newly created colonies i have created mobile spacedocks (shipbased shipyard) and send them to the colony to build bases while my planet is building the shipyard (once i have researched the required techs which still takes several years itself). plus i have dedicated starliners going from my homeworld to each colony set to just move people to the colonies.

edit: regarding the repair of bases. yeah it also takes forever to repair the upgraded facilities. at least it sounds like you did it over a planet so the planets yard will eventually repair the bases upgrades. i made the mistake up upgrading all my bases over a wormhole and my mobile space docks (MSD's) were all in the middle of constructing bases at other locations so i had to wait about 2 years to have one completed before i could send it to repair the bases upgrades. fortunately it was a wormhole well within my territory.

[ April 11, 2003, 20:01: Message edited by: desdinova ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed

What of below examples:
Base se4; Robo – Miners at structure 100
Not to mention large non combatant SM Component structures 100-400 as well as the 2000 structure of Grav Plates and Cables, etc.
What kind of affect do they have on combat.

[ April 11, 2003, 19:57: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Assuming the Basic Life support at structure 11kt would be more vulnerable over crew Qtrs, sensors etc.
9kt refers to not hanging the Lvl 3 Life Support out to be shot at.

I was throwing the option on the table for Level 3 LS to be a miniaturized Version at 5 kt tonnage and structure.
~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed

Level 3 Life Support to be miniaturized to 5 kt both in tonnage and structure may be the way to replace and discontinue Hardened Life Support. What would you say?

[ April 11, 2003, 20:19: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

starting to look at the files you sent me. one question about the spaceyards. for ships the size is 460kt but for bases it is only 400kt.

plus i noticed you reduced the structure on the base spaceyard and increased it on the ship spaceyard. this i take it is to help balance the size vs frequency of hits.

as far as the mtc cost of spaceyard bases they are manageable so far. but i have only built 1 base and 1 ship so far. havent tried combat yet to see how the penalty is going to affect things though. not sure if the penalty to hit is really a good idea since bases would seem to be very stable platforms to fire from. plus with the penalty for starbases to be hit already due to their size the additional penalty may be overkill. but then again shipyards should be protected by other ships, fighters, bases, etc as they are a valuable resource so we'll see.

edit: plus i see you use space station hulls where i use starbase hulls so that would also make a difference. so will have to try with a few of those as well.

[ April 11, 2003, 20:26: Message edited by: desdinova ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Like plain armor. I think it is all right for robo miners, grav plates etc., they should resist proportional to size. In most cases they are the only component in a hull. If a 2000kT structure should be protected, the structure tonnage should be increased, additional armor components below 2000kT would not help. Heavy components which can be protected by armor should not get too much reduced in structure tonnage, because this would be a malus on smaller ship hulls with lower protection by armor (because of no space available for protection).

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Originally posted by desdinova:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I increased the size to 460 for the Ships (Yard Component) so it would fit snuggly on a medium transport with one supply. This was done to limit some creative Human Exploitation of the SYS, where the AI or an unfamiliar Human multiplayer opponent would not be at a great disadvantage.
Other wise I would of taken cargo abilities off the SYS component to prevent this, alltogeather.
~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is just a start, we will tweak the Structure sizes on all Components for the next release.
~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Combat minus modifiers have not been changed on the Base vehicle hulls, but just on the Base Shipyard and Repair Component.
Other wise one may put this on a Defense Base design; just for the Maintenance Modifier.
However, I just thru those numbers on for the example I sent you, play testing will determine the best result. What would you say a good starting figure would be?
~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This may be best solution I have at this time for the Base Repair Bay (Maintenance Modifier) not to stack, and preserve a long Frontier build time with out the extreme maintenance cost.
We can go back to the faster build; SE IV default Repair Component or even add an additional individual one with no MTC to Complament the new Repair Station.

It seems to play well, but lets see if it works for you, with some large base hull designs, notice you have a low level Repair Base Station just from Ship Construction 2 tech, now.

[ April 12, 2003, 01:04: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Makes sence.

What do you think of Level 3 Life Support to be miniaturized to 5 kt both in tonnage and structure may be the way to replace and just discontinue Hardened Life Support.

[ April 11, 2003, 21:19: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, there is not much of a difference to regular LS anymore. Mmh, probably on very small scout ships without much available place for armor a HLS would be good, I am curious about the initial intention about this component (PvK?). Probably much more than 150kT, so that you need 4-5 hits before destruction? This would still make it the first component to be destroyed, but protection would be improved.

Can you increase hull structure in case of HLS component is used, like channel more plain armor to hull in case of HLS? I guess this is not possible without implementing additional hulls...

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A 10kt Armor structure fits well on a scout and I don't know if I would invest in High end Components for most scouting tasks.

[ April 11, 2003, 21:26: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I was going to suggest something like this, but was too sleepy to come up with any specifics. Probably Shield Generation, along with Emissive Armor? I guess you'd need a Version for regular shields and one for after phased shields are researched (using Shield Generation and Phased Shield Generation abilities, respectively). Maybe even a small crystalline effect or shield regeneration. Of course, any shield generation abilities would be nullified by shield depleters, and the component would be damaged by shield disruptors. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

There will probably have to be some combination of shield generation, shield regeneration, emissive ability, and fairly high tonnage structure. The structure shouldn't be too high, though, because it shouldn't outstrip the protection of armor--after all, the point of the component is to survive. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I seem to recall such a component being discussed in a thread a while back, but I can't find it right now.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LIKE IT http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
I will get started on your suggested design and get in test for the mourning.

Thanks
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ April 12, 2003, 00:54: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

i am having a problem with the files you sent me. if i start a game with medium or high level technology then i dont get cultural centers i get mining expedition I's, Rad expedition and farm settlement. if i start with low technology then i get cultural centers. i do however get the temporal cultural centers regardless of what level of tech i start with.

edit: i normally start with a low tech game so i dont know if this was happening in previous Versions or not. but in this case since i wanted to create fully researched base and ship components i tried a high tech game. i am playing a organic temporal race. i double checked to make sure i had selected the required human tech since that is a requiremnt of the cultural center and i had done that.

[ April 12, 2003, 02:16: Message edited by: desdinova ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

All set, file on the way...

Nice Job, Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ April 12, 2003, 02:22: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

i am at work and have no way of downloading at this time. is it a simple fix that i can just edit my copy?

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Problem was in the Construction Tech file Raised level setting; allowing Resource Facilities from the Beginning of the game, at Med Tech.
There by breaking the Organic, Psychic and Crystal Culture Centers. Temporal Cultural Centers gives you a small Research Bonus that is why that Loaded.

You should be all set for Low and Medium Starts now, with this change.

Please edit your Tech File to this setting:

Name := Construction
Group := Theoretical Science
Description := The science of constructing buildings and City Centers.
Maximum Level := 6
Level Cost := 10000
Start Level := 0
Raise Level := 0
Racial Area := 0
Unique Area := 0
Can Be Removed := False
Number of Tech Req := 0

File is already in the Mail.
Thanks, again
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ April 12, 2003, 02:53: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

thanks. have done. playing now.
edit: tried a high start and now i dont even get the temporal cultural centers. all i get are the mining exp, rad exp, and farm settlement, i dont even get the temporal cultural center. on the medium tech start it still same problem but i do get the temporal cultural center.
i will just wait until i get home. i will reload AICampain and copy the patch you sent.

[ April 12, 2003, 02:58: Message edited by: desdinova ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

just checked in v2.02 and it was the same way with high and medium tech starts. i will check v2.01 when i get home also. plus try installing the patch you sent.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Desdinova.

You defiantly found a bug for Medium Tech starts, that was in all previous AIC Versions that would effect Human Player. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The fix I posted or the File I sent you will defiantly resolve your Medium Tech Start Situation in loading Culture Centers and we will no longer have Resource Facilities as a problem; in a Low or Medium Tech Starts.

If after the new Tech file install and you are still experiencing trouble:

1: Please Reinstall the Full Version of AI Campaign that you have, so we will start fresh.

2: Then please install the 2.02 FILES update, this will add the new AI files.

3: Then please overwrite the DATA files with 2.03p Beta update.

4: Then overwrite with the Tech File Fix I sent you Last night.

I am curious what you think about the new, Base Repair Station component?

~
Please Note:
At this time, with MOST MODs that have Cultural Center designs; we do not recommend to Play a game in the High Tech start mode…

But I may be able to fix this, I will take a look at it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ April 12, 2003, 17:45: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Now that the Cultural Centers are Loading normal with the beta 2.03p tech fix and after we resolve the new Base Repair Station for 2.03, we can take a look at the need to Balance the type CC that is loaded for a Dual Race Class.

In Finite Play:
Imperial Trade from the Different Cultures really can make the difference in Cities and the various Large Culture Centers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Since {RADs} are the first resource to be depleted, we have to be sensitive to that. Organics from mother Planet, are very easy to accumulate and do not deplete near as fast (if at all) as all other recourses.

So for Races:

Organic + Temporals (Perfect). There should be about 50% Basic CC's, 30-40% in Temporal CC's for the (Imperial Trade in RADS) and 10% Agrarian Culture Centers.

Psychic + Temporals, Perfect

Psychic + Crystalline, Perfect

Organic + Psychic, Looks good.

Organic + Crystalline, YUK, Added more Crystalline CCs for v2.03

Psychic + Crystalline , Looks ok, but added more Crystalline CC for v2.03

Beta v2.03 Facility File, on the way.

[ April 12, 2003, 17:37: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Methinks planet SY always have to accelerate production rate, that's why I always try to build SY as one of the first facilities. Tested on high tech start, created a new colony near homeplanet, start building SY 1 , 7.5 years http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
Sent population shuttles until colony has reached 153 million. After 2.5 years at Last the SY has been 1 turn before completed. Stopped the shuttles to compare the production rates with the next turn:

Before SY = 980/980/980
SY completed, same population, same happiness (jubilant) = 760/760/760

SY production rate penalty alert !
But I fear there is a similar issue in proportions with this...

And I still think, we need a kind of early production rate acceleration facility, maybe a pre-SY facility (after the issue above has been fixed) with limited SY abilities but with a SY production bonus, NOT a malus http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Proportions Ship Yard Rate is absolutely Perfect for what PvK wants to achieve.

If I understand you correctly in regards to AI Campaigns; Ship Yard Rate, I agree it is slow with a small population and the Base Ship Yards are structured so there are now 5 levels to reach the Maximum production. This is part of AIC concept, the game is a Campaign and your Primary Enemy will be the AI, and the game is not designed to end in a quick fashion, unless the AI decides you are out of the game early. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ April 12, 2003, 22:03: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I disagree. The problem with this is, SY rate HAS to begin with 100 % minimum, otherwise it adds a malus when completed. It is the only facility with a malus, I don't want to build planet SYs in AIC and proportions anymore.

EDIT: ... not before 2000 million people (100%). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[ April 12, 2003, 22:20: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Ship Yard Basics for new se4 Players

Ship yard rates can be improved in many ways, in your Space Empires Game.

When creating your Races Attributes:
Workers or Engineers Culture Selection.
Increased Construction Aptitude in the Characteristics Selections.
Hardy Industrialist from the Traits selections.

In Game:
Always raise your Colony population up with Pop Transports or Starliners.
Keep your Colonies happy.
Up Grade to level 2 Ship Yard Tech; as soon as you see the Ships Production start to lag, this will happen when you start installing expensive components.

It is wise to be at a decent Ship Yard rate when you Plan to use Stellar Manipulation.
Also never retrofit all your Base Ship Yards or Base Repair Station at the same time, by doing this you lost that Bases abilities to contribute in the over all retrofit.

In regards to Base Repair Stations, they should be designed and built as soon as you feel your ships will need repair, and always try to have one built prior to retrofiting many ships with engines, do to the number of engines on each ship.

~~~

With above said, and with out acquiring any of the above Construction Attributes, you still will be right were the designer intended.
Above will make you stronger in the Construction Category, but you may loose some strength in the other Categories.

John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ April 12, 2003, 23:34: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

[ April 12, 2003, 22:51: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

i forgot rennaisance festival started this weekend and for next 5 weekends. i am pretty much out weekends btwn that and working evenings. will play with this weekdays before work, or if it stays slow here i will play here at work.
i had not noticed that build rate on planets gets worse with shipyard, that is definitely a problem. i will check that also. how about a shipyard that once you have a sufficient level of computer it gains automated control that helps increase the shipyard rate regardless of population. i mean if a computer can pilot a ship across galactic distances then surely it can control a shipyard with minimal (insert race here) supervision.
edit: then again i dont think this would be possible with the rules since they take into account the population bonus/penalty regardless.

[ April 12, 2003, 22:43: Message edited by: desdinova ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I disagree. The problem with this is, SY rate HAS to begin with 100 % minimum, otherwise it adds a malus when completed. It is the only facility with a malus, I don't want to build planet SYs in AIC and proportions anymore.

EDIT: ... not before 2000 million people (100%). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I was posting SY FYI while you were posting this, I could not see your following post.

PTF, You know I value your opinion, and it is realized that in Base se4 that SY Rate starts at 100% from the start but some MODs want a alternative Progression towards 100% of certain applications.

Considering the MODs you spoke of, a Colonizer colonizes at 1 pop about 20% that of base se4 and starting transport capacity is 1 pop, this about 2% of base se4, then in theory all else could be scaled (some what) accordingly.

True the Ship Yard Rate for AIC is not as liberal as base SE4, but there are some MODs that have more of a restrictive progression in SY rate then AI Campaigns.

[ April 12, 2003, 23:15: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

I am sorry, I have tested with slow builders, they get a 25% production malus once a planet SY is built. Without slow build and 100% SY characteristic the production rate is the same as before SY completed.

Everything all right and I was wrong...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No prob... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I also hate the Slow Builders trait.
But the 500 Point bonus from it, is useful at times http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ April 12, 2003, 23:48: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

PTF has brought up a valid point in regards to the SYS requiring the need to make at least 2 repairs. Do to the lowering of Repair Abilities below 99% for a Human Players culture choice.

In the next upgrade the SYS will make repairs of 2-3 and 5 as per level http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thanks PTF http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ April 13, 2003, 21:38: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

AI Campaign UPDATE 2.10
~~~~(Release date, soon)~~~~

==================

New* Repair Base Station Component's ~ Des, PTF
New* Miniaturized Life Support replacing HLS ~ PTF
Revised SYS Component Repair ~ PTF
Revised Some Structure KT Sizes ~ PTF
Organic Race Facilities fixed and Revised ~PTF
ECM VII fix ~Des
Medium Tech Starts Fix ~ Des
Revised some Fighter Weapons and Tech Requirements ~ GLV
Extra levels for the Combat Bridge ~ GLV
New* Fighter Solar Collector ~ LAN
Lowered Some AI Mine Sweeping Abilities ~ LAN
NEW* Finite Friendly Dual Race Class CCs~ DES
NEW* Ships Engineering Component ~ Krsqk
NEW* Sick Bay Component; Cures level 1 plagues and increased Crew performance. ~ LAN
NEW* Basic Crew Qtrs at 5kt. ~ LAN
NEW* Religious Culture Centers complete with built in Fate and Nature Shrines.

Added some race specific abilities on all Culture Centers.
Planet Engineering and Utilization research tree streamlined basically back to default se4.

No Warp-Style Games optimized
Reduced Sizes and Costs on some Stellar Manipulation Components.
Tweaked AI Research and Const Vehicle Files.
NEW* Two new Warp Open Components added for Humans Players; starting at Stellar Manipulations Tech ONE.

[ April 25, 2003, 21:21: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I was going to suggest something like this, but was too sleepy to come up with any specifics. Probably Shield Generation, along with Emissive Armor? I guess you'd need a Version for regular shields and one for after phased shields are researched (using Shield Generation and Phased Shield Generation abilities, respectively). Maybe even a small crystalline effect or shield regeneration. Of course, any shield generation abilities would be nullified by shield depleters, and the component would be damaged by shield disruptors. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

There will probably have to be some combination of shield generation, shield regeneration, emissive ability, and fairly high tonnage structure. The structure shouldn't be too high, though, because it shouldn't outstrip the protection of armor--after all, the point of the component is to survive. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I seem to recall such a component being discussed in a thread a while back, but I can't find it right now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Krsqk,
This design seems to play well, do suggest any additions or changes?

Name := Damage Control
Description := Quarters for trained crew members assigned to ships Maintenance and Damage Control Parties.
Pic Num := 50
Tonnage Space Taken := 10
Tonnage Structure := 60
Cost Minerals := 100
Cost Organics := 30
Cost Radioactives := 5
Vehicle Type := Ship\Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := One Per Vehicle
General Group := Construction
Family := 352
Roman Numeral := 0
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 4
Tech Area Req 1 := Repair
Tech Level Req 1 := 2
Tech Area Req 2 := Ship Construction
Tech Level Req 2 := 5
Tech Area Req 3 := Advanced Design Engineering
Tech Level Req 3 := 1
Tech Area Req 4 := Human Balance Tech
Tech Level Req 4 := 1
Number of Abilities := 3
Ability 1 Type := Armor
Ability 1 Descr :=
Ability 1 Val 1 := 0
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Ability 2 Type := Armor Regeneration
Ability 2 Descr := Repairs in Combat.
Ability 2 Val 1 := 15
Ability 2 Val 2 := 0
Ability 3 Type := Modified Maintenance Cost
Ability 3 Descr := Increases Ships Maintenance Efficiancy.
Ability 3 Val 1 := -1
Ability 3 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

[ April 19, 2003, 11:03: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Damage control, to me would be more like the organic armor regeneration ability.

Put one point on any component that can possibly be repaired during battle, and give the damage control team 20 points of OA ability.

When the combat sensors are hit, the damage control team rushes over to fix it. As long as there are only one or two components damaged each combat round, they can keep up.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I like it SJ, I already received 3 Emails saying YES-YES, we like SJ way….

So you are basically saying put some Regenerating Armor on some key Components when Damage Control tech is reached, for example:

Bridge
Life Support
Crew Qtrs.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Looks like a lot of great additions, and I am glad you changed Planet Utilization back to usual and the Organic Facilities look great http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The Religious Culture Center is awesome Im going to play another Finite game this time with some Religion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

When are you going to be done with v2.10 upgrade? Looking forward to a No Warp Finite game.

[ April 25, 2003, 21:47: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tech trees have less bombs now, and I increased Out put from Research Facilities 25 to 50%.

I added something extra to All the Culture Centers; Racial and other wise, that may help the Human Player. After the release I am sure their will be tweaks and desires from other Players.

I like the Racial Facilities now. With many thanks to PTF, Oleg and yourself of coarse GLV.

I am testing the Components File for a few days. This upgrade should be released by the end of the week.

[ April 27, 2003, 17:07: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

The only research tree that showed at none was Planet Engineering, and you fixed that.

I like the new Temporals CC, what do you think about a small system intell bonus instead of the Pychic traning bonus on the new Psychic CC?

I know theres not much else for Psychics.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

JLS,

I have looked over your files, and I must say you have done a great job fixing the AI. I was just wondering what your progress has been on the individual races in regards to these files: settings.txt, anger.txt, and politics.txt files.

Through my research I found that the main cause for the ai to act toward a human player and the other ai races are directly related to these files.

Based on the races that I looked I had some questions for you:

1.Cue Cappa: If another race treats them well, that race will be treated well in return, but should another race treat them badly, they can be quite dangerous. (FROM the general.txt file)
Demeanor := Honorable
Culture := Merchants
Happiness Type := Peaceful

Anger.txt File
Receive Offer Counter Treaty Proposal := 20
Receive Propose Trade := 15

In this short example, this race will have their anger increase by 20 points if a race provides them with a counter treaty proposal. In the next example if this race receives a trade request their anger automatically goes up by 15 points.

If this race is peaceful and will treat another race based on their dealings, the setting just within this one file contradicts the initial concept of this race.

Politics.txt File

Score Percent For Demanding Tone = 60

By setting it to this value a peaceful and honorable race will start a demanding tone when their race has a score of 600 and the target race has a score of a 1000. If this is a peaceful race why would they start a demanding tone to a another race that is stronger than them?

Settings.txt File

Get Angry Over Allied Colonizable Planets := True

If this is a truly peaceful race then they should not get angry over allies have colonizable planets. This will only increase their anger and not leave much of a difference in anger total and tolerance between an enemy and an ally.

Also remember that the happiness type is also based on what the actions of the race performs. This race is peaceful which means it likes treaties and trades but not war. The anger.txt file, politics.txt and settings.txt file should also reflect this.

There are many of these issues throught these files for each race. Because of these issues the ai races will always hate not only the human player but the other races as well. I was just wondering your take on these issues and if you planned on addressing these issues in a future update. Thanks again for your hard work and additions to the mod community.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Good questions SunDevil.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Receive Offer Counter Treaty Proposal := 20
If excepted at se4 default that you may be used to; then they won’t get a little ticked when the Human Player just turned down his Military Agreement Proposal to use your Human Resupply Bases when the human countered with a TR.

With se4 Anger file instead of insulted he would get happy with a net -3

Receive Offer Counter Treaty Proposal := 0
Receive Accept Treaty := -3
Cue Cappa and the Terrans are Merchants and they feel the Galaxy is for free trade and they want to use your bases. The Cue Cappa may get a {briefly a little} ticked and this is also were that (3%) below starts to add up LATE in the game.

But the Terrans who are not Honarable but Aggressive, eventually can get darn right Hostile at times if not allowed use of your bases or star charts.

I know I would not be happier if I kept getting turned down polity or otherwise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

In regards to:
Receive Propose Trade := 15
This in conjunction with
Accept Trade From Friend At Percentage Value or Greater of Received = set at 2 for 1 in favor of AI.

Slows down the ability for the Human Player to make constant resource trades with the AI; bleeding his resource reserves just so the that human player can subsidize a LARGE FLEET with those reserves to crush him in the end http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif
~

The other entries are calibrated to get the results preferred for this mod.

For example

Get Angry Over Allied Colonizable Planets := True

But also as you may have noticed is only at 3%
All though it is very unlikly the Honarable Cue Cappa will break the treaty over Planets,it could get him near brink only very late in the game.
Break Treaty Base Anger Level := 70
Break Treaty Anger Modifier Per Other Wars := 40
Break Treaty Anger Modifier For Percent Stronger Player := 250
Break Treaty Anger Modifier For Percent Stronger Player Amount := 50
Break Treaty Anger Modifier For Percent Weaker Player := 50
Break Treaty Anger Modifier For Percent Weaker Player Amount := -20
With other crossed entries involved as well, that we have not discussed.

See for yourself, this does work.

Percentage of Enemy Planets to consider as Attack Locations for Anger := 5
Is higher, for once the treaty is over, this Prideful Honorable Cue Cappan race will less likly to go back freinds http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
~~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As you know from your research SunDevil what AI races in base Space Empires 4 {use the anything other then the Happiness Type := Peaceful}

Even the Psychotic, Berserk Xi'Chung must use Peaceful do to the se4 default Happiness programming.
Demeanor := Psychotic
Culture := Berzerkers
Happiness Type := Peaceful
~~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If I explained myself well enough then you can see there is little to no changes needed in this area.
However, with thousands of entries changes in all these AI files I made , sure there can be typo or a glitz and I am sure a few will pop up, but so far so good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The Cue Cappa gets along with everybody for most if not all the game, it’s the Violent races that choose war with them more times then not.
Now, if you have first Contact the Cue Cappa late in the game they may not like you from the go, then all bets are off, but if they like you and you get any possitive Treaty, it is unlikly they will break it for some time.

This AI has been tested and played countless hours in that area and I have received a lot of positive feedback on AI Campaigns AI behavior from the Players. That’s not to say their won't be tweaking, I tweak every update, if not just so the AI won't get stale and or familiar http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
~~~
However SunDevil I still am having complications with the Xiati they are Schemers, I want them to be very friendly and then stab the weakest player in the back, maybe you can help me with this AI, what are your thoughts?

[ April 29, 2003, 15:33: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

JLS,

Thanks for answering my questions, I understand your points I guess I have to play with your mod a little more.

Anyway, off the top of my head with the Xiati, I would look into the politics.txt file. The anger and the settings file is to generic. Now based on the score percentage, if the Xiati have a high enough score percent in relation to a particular race or group of races that fall below or equal to that score percentage then they would be aggressive.

Score Percent to Send Want a tribute := 100/200
Will Send To Friend Want a tribute := True
Will Send To Enemy Want a tribute := True

Score Percent to Send Demand your surrender := 800/900 (You have this right now at 15)?
Will Send To Friend Demand your surrender := True
Will Send To Enemy Demand your surrender := True

Score Percent to Send Remove your ships from system := 200/300
Will Send To Friend Remove your ships from system := True
Will Send To Enemy Remove your ships from system := True

Score Percent to Send Remove your colonies from system := 600/700
Will Send To Friend Remove your colonies from system := True
Will Send To Enemy Remove your colonies from system := True

Score Percent to Send Leave planet := 500/600
Will Send To Friend Leave planet := True
Will Send To Enemy Leave planet := True

Now based on the score percent, regardless if the weak race if friend or foe the Xiati will not be nice. If the other races are closer in score to the Xiati then the they will not be bothered with these demands. Like I said, this is just off the top of my head and I hope this helps.

[ April 29, 2003, 03:33: Message edited by: SunDevil ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Xiati


<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Score Percent to Send Want a tribute := 100/200

I am not sure were you got the 100/200 from?
200 would yield a Demand when your race is way behind score strength by double

What is actual :
Se4 1.84 Default set at = 90
AIC Xiati set at = 50

With the current AIC setting at 50 the Xiati will demand a tribute when he is 50 % ahead of his target Races score as opposed to default which would only be a 10% lead, virtually almost equal strength in base se4.
I would laugh at a race that was tied asking me for tribute that’s why I bumped it up to 50.

With the currant Xiati AIC setting at 50, he will make demands less and when he does he will have some strength to back it up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
~

Will Send To Friend Want a tribute := True
Will Send To Enemy Want a tribute := True

Few races in AIC asks a Friend for Tribute, and the Xiati is one of them, in this way being the scum I want them to be.
~~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Again I am not sure where you are getting 800/900

At 800 would yield a Demand when your race is way/wayer behind score strength by 4 to 5 times in other words Your Race will be the one needing to Surrender not demanding it.

What is actual :
Se4 1.84 Default set at = 80
AIC Xiati set at = 15

This is a real good question SunDevil do to such a variance from default of 65.

At se4 default of 80 the race would demand a surrender when he only has a 20 % percent strength score lead this again is virtually tie and the target AI would constantly refuse any way.

With Currant AIC setting of 15 the Xiati will demand surrender when he is about 200% score strength to that of his target race…

Again the AI will make less demands and has some authority when he makes demands.
~
Will Send To Friend Demand your surrender := True
Will Send To Enemy Demand your surrender := True
Only the greedy races in AIC will send To Friend Demand your surrender, and the Xiati is one of them, in this way being the concealed scum I want them to be http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
~

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What is actual :
Se4 1.84 Default set at = 80
AIC Xiati set at = 70

As you can see we are close here I bumped up 10 to lessen the demands only.

However if you notice some of the Xenophobe Race files in AIC:

Sergetti for example:
Demeanor := Aggressive
Culture := Xenophobes

Score Percent to Send Remove your ships from system := 110

He will send Remove your ships even when he is trailing by 10% and they MEAN it as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Anger:
Per No Treaty Ship := 2
If you are in his territory with out a treaty you have only a few turns to GET out if:
1: His strength is –150 to 150 to that of yours.
2: He doesn’t much care if he already has a war or 2 (25) but will react a little slower if this is the case.
3: By mid game (turn 250-500) he may even take less crap from a non aligned race.
4: Even in the opening game (turn 1-51) he will cut you some slack, but not as much as others.

Declare War Anger Modifier Per Other Wars := 25
Declare War Anger Modifier For Percent Stronger Player := 150
Declare War Anger Modifier For Percent Stronger Player Amount := 50
Declare War Anger Modifier For Percent Weaker Player := 50
Declare War Anger Modifier For Percent Weaker Player Amount := -30

Same applies to a lesser degree with the Amonkrie But being Honorable he responds even when he is trailing -250% but he will cut some slack to you just the same; but don’t try to take advantage of the Amonkrie generosity until you have an agreement.

Now the Zynarra they relly don’t want anybody to STAY in there System, they won’t even let a friend refuel so don’t run out of gas . They will let a friend pass thru, but that’s about it. If you want to remain friends don't remain in his system with a fleet.

Well, enough of the Xenos, back to Xiati.
~
Will Send To Friend Remove your ships from system := True
Will Send To Enemy Remove your ships from system := True

I have this set at true for the Xiati because I am still trying to to get them more triggers to back stab an ally so they can be the scum I want them to be.

~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What is actual colonies :
Se4 1.84 Default set at = 80
AIC Xiati set at = 60

What is actual planet :
Se4 1.84 Default set at = 80
AIC Xiati set at = 50

Same Principles Applies as stated above.
Less AI demands and when the Xiati does demand he will have some influence.
~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Based on your numbers that you posted you have the Xiati Demanding Surrender when he trailing 5 to one? You did not get these numbers from AIC or the Original Space Empires Race Files.

I can’t take this any further, because I am not sure where your Numbers are coming from or your intended direction.

With the numbers I explained above, I hope will shed some light on the Xiati Political file and do accomplish what I perceive a Schemer should be, what do you think?

My next post will explain more of what I want to do with the Xiati and the item entries that make the difference, but I still need that elusive entry that makes them a more consistent back stabber, with out getting them in to much trouble as an AI.
Then when it comes to testing (ekk) it takes forever to create environments to set things in play, this is where feedback is so helpful.

John

[ April 29, 2003, 19:09: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

JLS,

I go the numbers backwards.

Remove Ships from System := ?

(You described this race that only focuses on weak races. If you do set this to 100, if you look farther down this file, you will see you have set for the Xiati to leave systems on 200 and planet at 200 both at true. So if the Xiati will leave a system or planet at 200 but will tell any race to get out of their system at 100, it just seems a little close to me.)

Demand Surrender := 15 Good Choice
Leave System : 40/30 Serious Request
Leave Planet : 40/50/60

-------------------------------------------------
What is actual colonies :
Se4 1.84 Default set at = 80
AIC Xiati set at = 60

What is actual planet :
Se4 1.84 Default set at = 80
AIC Xiati set at = 50

Because there might be multiple planets within a system you might want to have a lower score than leave planet because telling a race to leave a whole system is a huge demand compared to leaving only one planet.
I also noticed that you have this set in the accept part of the politics file as well. Where a race will accept the demand remove their colonies from a system when the score is 200 more than the target race, but to remove from a planet it is set to 400.
--------------------------------------------------

SunDevil

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

I was just about to edit when my server hickuped.

Please add this EDIT:

On other Mods I/we/they may set all Surrender Values very high and this is for good reason and for that particular design. This may be were you are getting some of the numbers.

I have to return to work.... Darn, I am enjoyng this exchange, I will be back as soon as I can.

[ April 30, 2003, 12:49: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Xiati

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Posted Send Remove your ships from system
What is actual :
Se4 1.84 Default set at = 80
AIC Xiati set at = 70 (not 100?)

Exerpt from AIC, as you can see they are staggered?
Score Percent to Send Remove your ships from system := 70
Will Send To Friend Remove your ships from system := True
Will Send To Enemy Remove your ships from system := True
Score Percent to Send Remove your colonies from system := 60
Will Send To Friend Remove your colonies from system := True
Will Send To Enemy Remove your colonies from system := True
Score Percent to Send Leave planet := 50
Will Send To Friend Leave planet := True
Will Send To Enemy Leave planet := True

Actual To Accept Remove your ships from system:
Se4 1.84 Default set at = 150
AIC Xiati set at = 200

Actual To Accept Remove your colonies from system:
Se4 1.84 Default set at = 150
AIC Xiati set at = 200

Actual To Accept Leave planet:
Se4 1.84 Default set at = 150
AIC Xiati set at = 200

OK, have a display,

The AIC Xiti {may} ask another race to remove his ships from a system if he is 130% to that of the targets score.

The AIC Xiati {may} accept the obligations to remove ships from a system if the Sending AI is 200% stronger then the Xiati.

Just so this is clear = "but will tell any race to get out of their system"
The system that is referenced by the AI is usually a contested system and actually the sending AI feels as strongly that the TARGETS system is his; whether it is the targets Home System or not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
The AI rarely fulfills if ever the acceptance obligations that implicates its Home System in reference to the Items above. Actually, the AI usually drags his butt or has an excuse on acceptance obligations outside his Home System as well in reference to the above items.

~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks.

"40/50/60" Their you go, these are absolutely good settings http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
From time to time we can randomly interchange to keep the Players on there toes.

~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks I see your Point, I will stay with the acual sends but in regards to accepts I will retest cranking colonies to 300-400 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Good Job, Sundevil http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

John

[ April 30, 2003, 02:25: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Sundevil,

No matter how you cut it, the Xiati can not be trusted, and that is where they are at now.

If not broken , best not to fix it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

EDIT:
I gave 300-400 a go,but 300 does works better for the Xiati, Thanks, Sundevil.

[ May 03, 2003, 12:27: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Thanks, for the cheer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

How it is done; is by manipulating the AI files that Aaron Hall who created Malfador Machinations Space Empires; intended for moders.

TDM (mod pack) has an awesome AI and they accomplished this with in the constraints of base Space Empires routines, and is a fine example on how this is done and by listening and referring to there knowledge, I was able to program something reasonable, to complement AIC.

Thanks. Xeno’s and most other races play the diplomatic game well, when it comes to the Psychos; Well there is not much creativity there, but everything evolves.

When it come to feed back: When you see something out of AI character that the AI did, send me an E-Mail or just post.

Again, thanks QBrigid http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 01, 2003, 13:51: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Xiati

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sundevil, good question. Sorry I missed this portion from your Post.

What I like to see is the Xiati some time after 50 turns, BREAK ONE treaty on the weakest race (about 150% weaker). I do expect more times then not, this to be the Human Player http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Now lets say you have a military Agreement with the Xiati , and he is over one of your resupply colonies possibly even over your Home World with a fair size fleet.
I want the Human Player to get real Paranoid if he/she is trailing; even Slightly (or ahead on some intentional random AI releases) and start building defenses even you the Human Player to consider a preemptive strike against him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

I don’t want the Xiati to declare wars, I just want them to double deal.

You will notice more time then not, they will pull this off. Even against other AI's.

[ May 01, 2003, 17:16: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don’t how you do it but the way the AI reacts in AI Campaign it is almost like they are Human.
What kind of feed back would you like to see in regards to AI diplomacy.
I don’t recall my encounters with the Xiati but the Xenophobic races do act like natural Xenophobes.
The Phong is also very Honorable, they do not break their treaty even when they are angry with you.
Very sweet mod. Keep happy and keep up the good work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 01, 2003, 12:25: Message edited by: QBrigid ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

JLS,

Thanks for the feedback, I am currently trying to put together about six of the top mods together into one for my personal use. I plan on playing around with your mod, but I must say you did your homework when putting this mod together. In a couple of days I will probably be finished and I will get a chance to actually play a game. Once I do, I am sure I will have more questions for you. Thanks again for your feedback and thanks again for your hard work in putting this mod together.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Sounds ambitious and it would be an honor if AIC is one of your top six.
If you need anything, be sure to ask.

Thanks again, Sundevil. I very much, enjoyed our exchange http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

John

[ May 02, 2003, 10:13: Message edited by: JLS ]