Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No, unfortunetely. You need win 95/98.

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

I think it was just under 4 meg.
How, big is a file in se4Batch?

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Depends on the count of turns + how many interim backups you set up, like every year, every 10 years etc.

This one is 2.8 MByte zipped. I have cut it into two 1.4 MB pieces and I am now waiting for the next "snail-router failure message".

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

A few of the guys here at the LAN group that tested finite mod, suggest that if I rework, the AI in Finite, the AI may Players become to powerful later in the game, if there is no re-facilitating of the AI recourses, and that the AI will have to be attacked early in the game by the Human player, before the Human Players depletes his or her resources in a finite game.

I will test some of their theories and get back to you on that Finite fix or if one is even required.

Thanks again for all your time and help.

[ March 13, 2003, 21:56: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

I am curious about your finite fix.

The order of the two mods in the new topic title do not mean anything to me. Pro AIcampaign in this special solo game setup is the great ability to finetune the AI exploration speed in comparison with a human player. This could be the main reason for my preference at the moment to take this mod as my WP-not-connected platform. Con AIcampaign, some personal changes that I like and miss from a proportions perspective: e.g. the ability to stock huge amounts of resources in CC facilities but probably I will learn to live with this or I might change it to my preference later.
It turned out that my favorite game setup seems to be WP not connected which could be a big malus for the unmodded AI. But I like more realistic scenarios, like: 2400-2500 terraforming the home system, build genesis components to build planets etc.
Leaving the home system should be much later as it is in a usual game, my opinion. Roughly I have side-considered another hardcore scenario with home system stars turning to supernovae after let's say 100 years or more: research for WP openers - mass exodus, which would be a nice task in AIcampaign/Proportions. This is not a new idea of course, I recall this from PBW scenario games.

Now, coming to the "finetuning" of WP not connected:
I plan to do some quick human only tests to investigate the exploration speed of a human player to compare it with some AI batch tests. According tweaks to the AI would have to take place after that, and I guess I can count on your (JLS,PvK,oleg and everyone of the interested community of course) help or hints to make it happen. Probably I can do some of the changes to test for myself, but if I don't get into something - I will ask. Maybe some of the "learnings" (if any) could even improve both of the mods or their AIs.
The premises of a human player in a WP not connected game are about:
-go for max. research up to system university complexes
-research for colony techs and terraforming, atmosphere converters
-develop the planets of the home system, personally I don't like remote mining. I like to do value improvement, genesis projects (planet creation) and sphere worlds.
-then open WP to reach out for the next system. I guess this would make up a solo game project of several years.

JLS, I have performed another AI batch simulation:
-unmodded AICampaign 2.01 because I have started this before your recent patch. I have used the original settings, yes with 114 systems max.
-12 galaxies, no WP connected, large, 6 AI races, no neutrals

Approx. at year 2500 I have interrupted the test because although the AIs have built WP openers, they did not use them. They just sit at the border of the systems but they deny to do anything (strike?). Probably it is an issue with 12 galaxies in specific, although I think the setup looks quite ok (12 clusters of 8-10 systems each).
What can I do next? With mid-life large in the Last batch simulation we have seen a lot of WP actions from the Cue Cappa at least. Do you want me to test another quadrant setup, or do you want to look into 12 galaxies first?

[ March 16, 2003, 18:02: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

Thanks, PsychoTechFreak. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I can understand your preference at the moment to take this mod as your WP-not-connected platform.
Please be patient, at least a week or two in regards to AI Campaign "as your preferred WP-not-connected platform".

We just covered your test in earlier Posts and now I need time to work on the AI file Tweaks.(In-between Family and work). Other wise you will just be covering the same ground as Last week.

The LAN group and I are starting Finite tests with the AI Campaign tomorrow mourning, and I do appreciate your enthusiasm. As I stated in a earlier post here in this thread, although I am happy the CueCappa and to some part, the Eee that they survived your 1000 turn test in a one system, no warp, Finite test with achieved Income and a Fleet and with the CueCappa prolifically opening warp points. I now have to tweak the AI, test them and release them.

When I designed AIC I did not even consider the above AI test in conditions one system, no warp and Finite. However I am very happy on the AI tuning in a infinite game at present, and I again thank you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I plan to have the AI fine tuned and balanced with all Research and Construction tweaks and some ALL NEW AI Stellar manipulation designs just to address yours as well as others in regards to the desire to play WP-not-connected games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree, the ability to stock huge amounts of resources in CC facilities makes for a much easier game. If Proportions is your preference, well, what can I say. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, I don’t think you can Play with any AI Players in Proportions at allor for long; in most kinds of a Finite game.
But PvK would be the best person to ask in regards to (ALL) Proportions questions.
~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ok, but as I asked a previous AIC player and of you in a previous post here, it may be best until after I update the Not Connected AI files. Your time in the follow up of the NEW AI files; upon completion in a few weeks, as it relates to Warp Not Connected would be invaluable to all of us; then.
~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks, PsychoTechFreak.
Actually I would like you to hold off AIC tests until I release the AI updated files, from your first test. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think you have done a great job with your previous se4batch tests, and with that data I will revise some AI Research and Designs files to better handle the a (No warp, Not Connected scenario) and I am happy that the CueCappa and Eee performed in that test with a income and a Fleet with the CueCappa prolifically opening warp points.

Again, thanks

John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 16, 2003, 21:52: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

I don’t understand why you renamed this thread , today, to include my AI Campaign Mod,(Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS)PsychoTechFreak.

Actually AI Expansion was covered in a Previous thread Several Pages ago.
Titled "slowing down AI expansion".

My reply in that thread; may applie in part, to this thread as well, now!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
I don't know what Mod you are referring to here…

How far can the AI go when he only has Supply storage bays of about 600 or less.
Most AI exploration ship designs I have seen have only 2 engines yielding about speed 6 with 1500 supplies tops. Now also consider the AI turns Back to his resupply base when the exploration ship is about half full of supply. The AI may be hard pressed to explore one or two systems from his home system. Until the next resupply depot is built.

The AI exploration wows are further compounded when he fleets in 2 or less years with ships having less efficient engines and possibly one to none in regards to Supply Bays.

As a human player; we use tankers (Small transports EDIT: or frigates etc.) that are full of supply bays and search with them and refuel my scouts at the same time.
I believe most humans out explore the AI (by far).

Some AIs go into partnerships sooner then a Human would, to this example the AI would see more, and there are of course the Ancients Trait this may be a benefit for you, in respects to your explorations. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Many “unlimited QNP engines” sure may allow players to farther and faster but I have never played with unlimited engines and irregardless the AI still will turn back to base, when his min supply range is triggered.

EDIT: Did and like it alot in P&N from gold CD!

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am with you here…. But if we use the search function here on the forum, we may see hundreds of Posts on how the AI can’t compete! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed, Along with AI better utilizing minesweeping, Combating plagues, ship training…etc.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Replies to QUOTES: by JLS.

I hope my reply to:
"I feel that the AI expands to rapidly":
Is of help to you, here, PTF.

Thanks

John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 16, 2003, 21:43: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There currently is no Finite Fix and that has not been determined whether one is even desired or needed at this time!
It is unlikely that any further abilities will be added to the Cultural Centers as you and I discussed in AI Campaign : Updates Topics.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">~
However the local LAN group and I will test the Balance; of the AIC FINITE MOD and get back to you the end of next week; if time permits.

In regards to the AI in itself; as a result of your (one system, no Warp, Finite test).
I will be removing some AI Design Components so as just to fit the warp open component on an efficient small transport and to keep production time and cost down, and Making for a more efficient AI Player http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Adjusting Not Connected Research to be (balanced) as to insure the Human Player a chance to break out way before the AI in a Warp Race. As we discussed in a previous post!

I would appreciate holding off, all AI Campaign tests until I get Back to you. With the updated AIC Files.
As explained in my previous Posts.

Thanks

John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 16, 2003, 21:56: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sounds great, *PsychoTechFreak patient mode active*.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't think I am searching for an easier game I am also not proposing to change it and it is not a denounciation of your change. What I mean is a matter of resource generation to stock proportions of extreme facilities like CCs and their longterm tasks. But since it is a matter of taste in this case it is out of the question.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif
What do you mean exactly? Should I rename it to AI campaign OR Proportions?
When I have started this thread (it has been started some days before the "slowing down AI expansion" from Atrocities), I just have searched for a regarding setup or modification for proportions. I admit to have noticed the AI campaign mod a few days later. Actually what I search is speaking for both of the mods: I think about all of the modifications, emphasizing the home cultural centers, the colonizing has been modified to be harder, slow colonizers, high population mass, slow population growth, population modifiers greatly expanded to reflect production rates. With all of these "close to reality" changes I think it is inappropriate to have the ability to cross the whole quadrant with a small ship and efficient engines, fast space yard transporters which build colonizers directly over the planets etc.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Probably I still don't get your point or I can not make myself clear enough. To catch the falling knife of all resources depleted on a home planet with CCs you need (roughly calculated) more than 25% value improvement ability just to reach break even point. It is useless to try to straightly research for value improvement plants, scrapping the 2 worthless facilities to try to hold this up with the ridiculous 6%. If you would provide 1% improvent per CC, this would be 16-20% in total which would just slow down the free fall of resources a bit.
But you might see what I mean when your LAN group will test the issue.

Thanks a lot, I am curious about things going forward with this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

PTF

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

On the topic: [Slow down exploration speed in PROPORTIONS] this should be addressed by PvK and others in interest.
~
In regards to AI Campaign.

I hope my Post was informative in regards to AI Player Exploration in se4 General, and also as it applies to the AI Players opening game of AICampaign.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">~

If you are referring to Human Player in respects to Topic (Slow down exploration speed “”). This was addressed already by PvK and My self in earlier Posts.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">~
How you went from (Slow down exploration speed in PROPORTIONS) to the
harsh Parameter test, on AIC I am unsure? However, I am Pleased with your results http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What was your result for the above on other current Mods, in the Above test One system, no Warp, Finite how long did the (non Crystaline) AI Last with resources, I believe they would deplete in total after a few years, is this not true.
It is how Imperial Trade is set up on CC’s and Urban Centers in AI Campaign that allows the AI and a Human to maintain at least a Minimum income thru out the entire Finite Game.

If there is issues off your topic (Slow down exploration speed “”) I don’t understand your meaning or intent as of yet?
Although I do appreciate all the Positive initiatives you have invested in AI campaign to date.

I again would like to thank you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 17, 2003, 14:11: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

JLS, thanks for the helpful compilation about possible supply storage modifications/considerations.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As far as I recall, in the beginning it was just a side-test, based upon a brief discussion with you about close-to-reality setups. But it became more and more interesting now, so I have included the worst case reality scenario into my considerations.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">With no connected setups the exploration speed is drastically slowed down. That's why I have left "slow down exploration speed".
The intention changed dynamically. All right, let me try to explain my thoughts/intentions:
Initially I just thought about a human only game setup without AIs, just to build, develop worlds, probably build artifical worlds, leave the not connected home system to explore. Without AI would be boring, right? But at this time I was sure (wrong) the AI would be completely screwed up with this setup anyway.
Then I have found your AI campaign mod, I extensively reviewed it, made some tests with the result:
The AI with a finetuned bonus plus some changes to strategies probably will be competitive and even more with this approach ! So I have taken the AI and AI campaign with the ability to do the finetuning into consideration for my solo game. Before I start my longterm solitaire game, now I would like to have AIs in place which are competitive but not with an overwhelming pace on the other side, because this could destroy the gameplay. Sorry, I seem to have problems to make myself clear, but it looks like we are at the right way now:
I am the requestor, and it looks like you are going to be the provider of my favorite game setup. Thanks in advance for that bunch of effort !

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">With enough time, you can develop high resources on the other planets of the system before even starting to deplete them. You know: Build nature shrine or several value improvement plants and just wait. Start mining facilities carefully without going under break even point. This approach would be extremely slow indeed.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't get me wrong now, please. To do a fair comparison to other current Mods you would have to:
Either reset your AI- SM components to the old values or reduce costs of the AI components in the other current Mods respectively. The main reason for the out-of-resource problems of the AI is SM ships with maintenance costs of 25,000-30,000 each turn. Your AI SM ships just pay 1,000-2,000 each turn from what I have investigated so far.
Imperial Trade, Urban Centers unquestionable are very nice additions to this, but in my opinion the main reason for this phenomenon is the big cost reduction of usually expensive components and facilities. But again, don't get me wrong, it is all right as long as the given AI bonus can be balanced with this approach and the bonus is not too overwhelming (at the moment I am actually afraid it is, but I have not yet encountered an AI race yet so I might be wrong).

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

Thanks , PTF. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I think we are of one mind on this.

With the numerous and varied amount of Players here in the forum it may be very productive in balanceing AIC in all aspects of game play.

Most the LAN group and I, have been together now since Carriers At War and Gettysburg was out for the Commodore 64, and that was after our Squad Leader and Football board games together…
As a base for input and testing they are invaluable.

Now, to reach out to the forum for its experience and assistance could be immeasurable.

John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 17, 2003, 17:47: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

PTF,
The AI's Open, Close warp and Create Planet on the Small Transport Designs are much better now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thanks to you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I will Email all AI Design files to you tonight, for your perusal.

John
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 17, 2003, 19:00: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

Got it !
Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Slow down exploration speed in AICampaign/PROPORTIONS
 

AI cultural centers with SM stopping abilities, nice but unfortunately it isolates the AI in not-connected games: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Ability 17 Type := Stop Open Warp Point
Ability 17 Descr :=
Ability 17 Val 1 := 0
Ability 17 Val 2 := 0
Ability 18 Type := Stop Close Warp Point
Ability 18 Descr :=
Ability 18 Val 1 := 0
Ability 18 Val 2 := 0

But I am going to remove this now, SNIP...