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I could have returned my copy as an exchange then returned later and got my money back when I returned an un-opened copy of the game. I figured to give the dumb *** at QS a chance to redeem themselves. What was I thinking? You just have to ask what in the hell were those idiots at QS doing all this time? Why oh why didn't some one step up to the plate and say; "Guys this game sucks, lets make it more like moo2?" If ever there was an excuse to fire a group of people MOO3 is it. |
Re: Moo3 is a shareware now
Firing is too gentle. I say we tie them to a chair and make them play their own game !! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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No, I would sit them down in a room full of SE IV fans and make them play a game of SEIV in order to demonstrate how a true 4X game is made. Then tie them up to a chair and thow MOO3 disks at them until they died. (Cold and ruthless, hell ya. Just look at my name.) |
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Take the job. Have fun. Leave it off your resume. |
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Ok, so from lurking on this thread, it is rather obvious that MOO3 is a pile of poo, and is basically a great concept diabolically executed in the interests of corporate greed.
Now, if I want other 4X style games, what is there out there for a humble Mediaval and Medal of Honour loony to go and play? |
Re: Moo3 is a shareware now
Old games, mostly. MoO2. Master of Magic (if you can get it to run on W95 or later). SMAC. Emperor of the Fading Suns. The X-Com games. The 'General' series by SSI (except Star General, avoid that one). The Battle Isle series. Jagged Alliance.
Ok, so most of those aren't 4X games, but they are all good strategy games (and some of my Favorites). You can probably get them real cheap too, since some of them are quite old by now. |
Re: Moo3 is a shareware now
Currently out? Well SE IV of course.
GalCic Moo2 Moo1 BOTF Rebellion IG 1 IG II SE III Stars (Really good game) Reach For the Stars (Not so good) Other I am sure, but I don't know of them. Other Games such as FPS: Tribes (*****en) Tribes II (Fun but not well supported) DeuEX (A real good game) SOF I (Not II as it sucked!) Blade (Fun) IGI (Fun) |
Re: Moo3 is a shareware now
Cheers Earwax, what is this "Stars" game and ths "Galactic Civilisations" game. Are these any good?
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[ June 10, 2003, 14:35: Message edited by: Atrocities ] |
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Fair comment Atrocities but I couldn't resist a dig at my Chief Engineer from the TSSS Phong's HEad.
What is GalCiv like then? |
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I can help you with Stars! (yes it has an exclamation in the name). It's sort of like SE IV with no warp points and more realistic planetary conditions. It wasn't moddable Last time I checked. Ship design is veeery similar to SEIV.
You could call Stars! 'SEIV lite'. Or maybe SEIV is Stars! on caffeine pills. I think you'll like it either way. I haven't tried GalCiv. My games budget is pointed at Starfury right now ! |
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The Civilization games (I and II, but not so much III) are good.
SMAC and its expansion are Grrreat! Shogun: Total War, Warlord Edition is also a great game, and I think it meets all four Xs. I have heard good things about its sequels, but I waited for MoO3. Then I came back to SE IV, because MoO3 .... well, that's already been covered and we have no need to get Atrocities going again (think about your blood pressure!). |
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I've never had so much fun not killing anything. To come in guns-a-blazin' is one thing -- to achieve your goal without anybody realizing your were even there is really something you have to experience firsthand. --Raynfala, fledgling taffer |
Re: Moo3 is a shareware now
OK, but how does Stars! differ from SEIV then, is it more action, less action? less/more realism or what?
Anyone care to opine on GalCiv? |
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Less action, at least vs. the AI, which is tough on the defense but not so great on the offense.
Some things are more realistic. Planetary environments and minefields, for example. Edit : fuel consumption also runs on a more complex model. Any ship can move faster or slower than normal, with corresponding effects on its fuel efficiency. Every engine has its own 'fuel usage curve'. There are also far fewer tech areas to choose from (negative point, IMO). Like I said, it's SEIV lite. More edit : Now for a serious question - how many copies has SEIV Gold sold so far ? Is this info public ? [ June 10, 2003, 17:51: Message edited by: Chief Engineer Erax ] |
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I like GalCiv, tho not as much as SEIV. It's designed for solo play, so all the development effort that otherwise would have gone into multi-player went into the AI instead. I haven't had time to play much since its release--altho I did play CONSTANTLY as part of the open beta test--and the AI kicks my butt on a regular basis at low difficulty levels. They also have a more detailed diplomatic model, in which, altho you still ultimately know you're playing a computer, the illusion of playing another human is much stronger than in other games.
On the down side, there's no ship design--you research techs to get bigger hulls, and research other techs which upgrade your fleet as a whole. Also, there's no tactical combat--ships or fleets fight when they occupy the same location, with the "action" occurring behind the scenes. But, to be fair, this was the intent--to have the AI take care of the tactical detail so the player can focus on the big picture, and the result is a smooth, easily understood system, unlike MOO3 which had the same stated goal but exectued it incomprehensibly. Planetary development can involve a lot more detail, as there is a vast array of different facilities from which to choose--most of which appear as associated techs are researched--but even here, you can let "Governors" [essentially automated queues] handle the details, and they'll actually do what you tell them to--ulike MOO3's "Ministers." I disagree with whoever it was on this forum who argued that GalCiv isn't a Space 4x game. It certainly is, merely focused on a higher level than most others. But, the decisions you make in the game have a discernable impact on the course of your civilization, and the variety of victory paths, whether military, cultural, technical, etc., require different approaches to play and are all possible to pursue successfully. One final thing: GalCiv is a sequel to a very popular game for the OS2 operating system, a game which had a highly devoted fan base. From everything I've seen, these fans are quite happy with the new game, unlike the legions of angry MOOers. [ June 11, 2003, 03:40: Message edited by: Hrothgar ] |
Re: Moo3 is a shareware now
Here is a direct quote from the MOO3 site about how to install the new patch. NOTE: the patch does not install correctly.
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Lets face it, if they can't even make a patch that will install, the game is hopeless. |
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Ok, I get it to install and presto it updates.
THEY NEVER FIXED THE FUZZY FONTS Second, does any one understand that F-ed Up opening? I mean it seems to me that they had no clue as to how to open the game so they invented something that made absolutely no sense at all. For the record, when that happnes, you might as well as forget the rest of the game; it's trash as well. The patch FIXED NOTHING of importance. NOTHING that mattered. The patch is NOTHING!!!!! I mean this when I say it, they should fire everyone who was involved with the game and start over. Publish an apology and refund peoples money. |
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Lets face it, if they can't even make a patch that will install, the game is hopeless.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Patch was quick to download & EASY to install per instuctions. This patch also made this game close to a classic. Without wasting my time revealing all the improvements, just visit the MOO3 websites for all the details. |
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i don't have the game, but i'm downloading the patch to look at the readme file. if it looks good, i might buy the game.
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"The Patch was quick to download & EASY to install per instuctions."
Uh-huh. How come the person you responded to couldn't get it to work then? |
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The game in my humble opinion is actually quite worthless and that is why I chose to uninstall it and send back the disks in peaces. QS, or now the blame is being shifted to Atari (?), got my money and in return ran laughing to the bank. I feel that it is only appropriate that I return their POS game to them and spread the word about how truly awful MOO3 actually is. And I do know what it is I am critiquing friend, one horribly implemented game that just happened to be named Master Of Orion 3. [ June 11, 2003, 09:55: Message edited by: Atrocities ] |
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I do not mean to offend you, but IMHO MOO3 is not a good game. [ June 11, 2003, 10:43: Message edited by: Atrocities ] |
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Hrothgar, thanks for your response.
GalCiv sounds interesting. How does the fleet combat work? is it a case of you getting a message that your 10 destroyers have had a fight with a couple of alien cruisers and have lost 3 ships or something like that. Other than technology, can you affect the combat in any way (like using the formations in SEIV)? Does Galciv have ground combat? and how do the graphics compare to SEIV? Given that I get little time to play multiplayer, a good AI game designed for single player sounds grand |
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When the battle is over, either your ships are still there, aside from the ones lost, or they are not in which case you lost the battle. The combat is not all that great, but it is designed that way to give the player a board game feel. I happen to think it works well. GalCiv is not multiplayer, and the AI's seem to do well in keeping you going. The Metaverse (sp) is a good way to challenge yourself against other players by downloading hteir game style and essencially playing agaisnt them. All in all I think GalCiv is a damn fine game and I hope you do buy it. But compared to SeIV, most players will find it kinda boring after a game or two. |
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Atrocities covered space combat well. As for ground combat, first, there's no bombardment from space. Troop ships must land soldiers in order to take a planet [altho there may be, and I think there are, planet-destroying weapons at high tech levels. I haven't played in a while--busy getting ready to leave the country and mostly playing only SEIV when I have time], which they can't do unless your combat ships have eliminated any screen of defensive ships which may be present. So you order the troop ship[s] to attack, and a little screen comes up showing the relative strengths of the attacker and defender, with a variable which causes the result number to be cycling onscreen 'til you hit the attack button. It's as abstract as the space combat, and, other than bringing the numbers and researching stuff to make your troops better, there's nothing you can do to effect the outcome. But, as I noted, the focus of the game is on higher level decision making, so I guess tactical nuances would be superfluous. In the end, players always claim they want this or that detail, but, if they're all implemented, the game becomes lost under the weight of the minutia. No doubt, if you want tactical refinements, GalCiv will NOT be your cup of tea, but it does what it does very well, and it has a lot of flavor despite the tactical abstraction. I think I remember reading on the board there that a demo is planned--it may even be out now. If it's a decent demo, then downloading it and playing it would be the best way to decide if you want to shell out the bucks.
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I do not mean to offend you, but IMHO MOO3 is not a good game.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No offense taken, there are many, many "games" that are liked & disliked by one & all. If I had just "listened" only to negative reviews of certain programs, I would certainly have missed out what was to me some very good gaming. Anyways, Go Redsox! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Moo3 is a shareware now
"Why is it ok to spew nonsense about a game , but not ok to disagree about said nonsense? (btw, "nonsense" is my opinion )"
Hint: just because you don't have a problem with something doesn't mean problems don't exist. That bit Mechcommander 2 in the butt for example. It was buggy and slow as heck on some machines, fine on others..even lower powered ones. But since a lot of people refused to belive those with better computers could be having problems, they just laughed, and the people having problems returned the game or got pissed. Which meant that the idioticly simple fix for those problems didn't get widely spread. The problem was TWO small files that weren't supposed to be there. Delete them, and it went away. By the time word got around though, most of the players were gone. |
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Ya I remember when Tribes 2 came out, the backlash and negativity about the game cost Dynamix is company.
The problem was, and might be for MOO3 as well, was the pressure from fans and corporate overlords was to get the game out ASAP with the attitude that we can fix the problems on the fly in patches. A truly bad philosophy that often more than is the driving force behind game design and marketing. Dynamix was a company full of revolutionary programmers who loved the game they were making. If people would have READ the requirements for the game before buying it, then perhaps all of the BS could have been avoided. Tribes 2 is a wonderful game, but many Tribes 1 fans never gave it a chance. The thing about MOO3 though is that it should have been at least as good as MOO2. Hell BOTF was based off of MOO2 and it was a great game. (Although not at first warmly received by fans with to high of expectations.) I love the Galaxy map system in MOO3, and wish that other 4x developers would follow that concept. One thing to know is if you compare SEIV to other 4X games you will see that Aaron focused the majority of the available game area on the System map and very little on the Galaxy map. He used icons instead of menus, and his pop up windows all have a basic symmetry to them. Everything flows together well, and logically. Moo3's interface was claustrophobic at best, nicely colored but with bad fonts. I liked a lot of that were included in MOO3, but over all the lack of ease of use and the feeling of always being trapped in the menus ruined the game for me. I hated the fact that there were no right click menus, and every time I clicked on a fleet that damned "Do you want disband the fleet" window popped up. Combine the fact that there were no easy ways to do anything in MOO3 really tanked the game. I love how easy it is in SEIV to build and send a colony ship to a specific planet. In MOO3 that was virtually impossible. I loved how I can easily and simply research new technologies, design ships, and control my planetary construction ques. MOO3 was far to complicated and did not allow for the freedom needed in order to give the player a sense of control. The SitRep was flat out atrocious. It was neither intuitive nor helpful. The LOG in SEIV is very helpful and intuitive by contrast. Over all, MOO3 had a lot of great ideas, but poor implantation and questionable design choices really undermined the entire game. For that I am very sorry, but what can one do? Either learn how to play it, or do what I did and give up on it. [ June 12, 2003, 10:06: Message edited by: Atrocities ] |
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ATTENTION MoO3 CRITICS: Could the unpatchable (intentional) "flaws" in the game not be summed up as "They tried to make a micromanagement free 4X game."?
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Would they have sold the game as what it really is, they wouldn't have gotten so much heat. Well, and about a tenth of the sales also, but thats another story. |
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There's a reason why most SEIV gamers hated MoO3. We all love micromanagement (see the 'SE IV code' thread) and SEIV delivers it to us in grand style.
This does not mean that we represent the sum total of the strategy space gamer community. There must be many people out there who want to conquer the galaxy in two-minute, five-clicks-of-the-mouse turns. Sim games have their own market. If Atari had aimed at them and not at, well, gamers like us, they might have had pretty good sales on MoO3. We would still hate it but the game wouldn't be such a fiasco. That having been said, it is never a good idea to pull a gentre switch on your public. It is better to re-release the same game with better graphics (anyone remember Terror from the Deep ?) than to give your public something they do not want and weren't expecting. |
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I know, I play it, it is fun! I also like SEIV, a very impressive program. Much to appreciate thanks to the people who play & the designer who listens. I am hopeful MOO3's fan support will be as impressive as SEIV's is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
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i'm not a fan of micromanagement, like it sometimes, not others. and i like simcity, there's control, just not direct control. got 153 eq once by building a city of squares on a flat map. each square contained a six by six area. very effecient. then there's finding a good design on a random map without bulldozing anything up or down. you sorta have to flow with the terrain. i'm getting a mayoral urge again.
botf - birth of the federation? is there a demo for that? so far, i don't like the galciv demo. although it could be that i can't figure out how the turns work my survey ship seems to be able to travel forever as long as i click on it again. and the demo makes me feel crowded, i don't think you really can play it with only one ai race. [ June 13, 2003, 09:04: Message edited by: narf poit chez BOOM ] |
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You do realize that the way you had it, each tile of buildable land was serviced by no less than 2 road segments? Your city repeated every 7x7 squares, so for every 49 squares of land, you spent... 7+6 on roads, or 26.5% Things to do: - Eliminate many of the cross-roads, to form longer rectangular zones. Theoretical minimum land spent on roads vs total serviced area = 14.3% - spread the zones to SEVEN by seven or higher... (2x2 and 3x3 buildings can "ooze out" over the center area no problem) You can also place the support structures for your city in these areas that are unserviced by roads, such as; water pumps and power plants, and all manner of the multi-square buildings you place yourself. - For THE ULTIMATE in zone density, use only subways and subway stations. No roads, rails or any form of trasnportation except underground. For each 1 tile of subway station, you get 24 tiles of zonable land. The Station's service areas can be made to tile a plane perfectly, thus costing you only 4% of your space for transportation instead of the 26.5% you were spending on that 6x6 grid city. This gets you a 30% increase in usable land area! As a side bonus, during a firestorm, the subway city can be easily protected... Just place a single police unit on each subway station that is in danger... Any area that burns down will be rebuilt by the citizens, since there is a continuous grid of power available from the rest of the city. [ June 13, 2003, 14:54: Message edited by: Suicide Junkie ] |
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I know, I play it, it is fun! I also like SEIV, a very impressive program. Much to appreciate thanks to the people who play & the designer who listens. I am hopeful MOO3's fan support will be as impressive as SEIV's is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes, I have to agree, MOO3 seems to really have focused a lot of attention into MP and that is a welcome change. I think that might have been the over all idea of the developers. They focused all of the game toward MP and less toward SP and that is why SP seems so under developed and poorly implemented. I bought the game and really bashed it hard, but now, given time to play it, I have relized that it is an interesting game, no where near as good as SEIV or GalCiv though. The area that MOO3 shines in is its MP. |
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I remember reading at the BOTF forum when the developers told the fans to "F-OFF" and from that point on no new patches were released and Microprose moved on. I think Hasbro bought them and offically they do not recognize BOTF any more. Also Activition bought out all of the rights to make Star Trek games and that combined with other factors killed any chance for a BOTF II. I loved BOTF, and even though all of the pro-BOTF forums like TOP, TGN, FSN, and others bashed the hell out of the game at first, most came around, too late to make a differance, and began supporting the game and the mod community. Which I might add did a great job making a few great mods. |
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[ June 13, 2003, 20:38: Message edited by: eddieballgame ] |
Re: Moo3 is a shareware now
MOO3 is not a great game, and will never be a great game. It will at best be an average game. MOO and MOO2 were great games. MOO3 is a shameful successor to the MOO series.
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Re: Moo3 is a shareware now
Can't believe the designers of MOO3 released this garbage. Space Empires rules. Even BOTF was better.
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