Re: MBT's
 

Hmmm.... that looks like a scenario just waiting to be created.

Re: MBT's
 

This next in NO WAY means the ARMANTA is operational. However, the Russian Correspondent that has made the claim he's seen "some" of them near the front in the Donbas region.

Some can't be many as "across the board" even from Russian sources indicate that Russia has ONLY 20 units still undergoing testing and NOT even at IOC AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

If true, I agree with this article that this can be seen as a further operational test of its capabilities much as has been reported that around 4 units did last year in Syria.

I'm just a little skeptical ONLY because I really don't think Russia would risk the capture of this tank after as we know (Or should know.) at least 2 pristine operational at time of capture T-90M tanks are the hands of the Ukraine and by default NATO (If you don't believe the NATO part, I would suggest you stop drinking the "Kool-Aid" ;).

It should be remembered the T-90M shares many "SUBSYSTEMS" of the T-14.

The video supplied indicates nothing except that could be anywhere in Eastern Europe.

I don't openly dismiss this off hand. It's NOT operational, it's NOT unusual for a country to OPTEST new military equipment when there's a "convenient" war somewhere, Israel does this ALL THE TIME and this might be news, Germany is about to do the same in sending the Ukraine 18 units of the BOXER 155mm/L52 SPA. The BUNDESWEHR doesn't even have them.

Let's just ALL wait and see what happens here BEFORE, we :o OURSELVES.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...as_region.html

The following is verified that they're moving West...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...ern_front.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...o_ukraine.html

Regards'
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Yeah..... a tank driving in the fog on a muddy road means nothing. Russia has thousands of miles of that and IF some actually did make it to the front they would be at the top of the "must do" target list.

OTOH, The T-90 Proryv had a lot of hype and expectations put on them that have not exactly panned out.

Time will tell.

Re: MBT's
 

The following is somewhat a "MIXED BAG" of news. First the good news...
Poland has received the first of S. Korean K2 tanks. However, the unknown is it the same tank that S. Korea operates armor wise is still unknown.

To my mind based on what we've seen from other foreign sales (With exception of some older models i.e., the LEOPARD 2A4.) I'm still leaning towards the armor values for the K2PL to fall on average between the K1 and K2 which is exactly what we did in essence with the M1A2PL (And Taiwan's.) tanks. S. Korea had more than enough time to modify the armor and remove any "proprietary" armor enhancements and replace them with other very effective armor products.

This the normal "business practice" for more advanced weapons systems worldwide for a foreign buyer in the RL but also in ours as demonstrated MANY times over the recent years in here in particular.

For some time now and due to the silence on this issue over the last 3 months or so, I was starting to wonder whether or not the deal to but the M1A2PL was possibly cancelled or postponed due to the increased M1A1 buy and the very large K2 and K9 buy as well.

Well, the ref below indicates the buy is still on! This will make Poland the largest operator of modern tanks in Europe.

The possible downside for us as reported by the AP is...
"The deal follows last year's $4.7 billion agreement for the acquisition of 250 upgraded M1A2 Abrams tanks that will be delivered in 2025-26."

We'll have to see how many, how fast they arrive, and crews get trained. And finally, when Poland actually fields them.

We'll have to watch this very closely even if it goes into 2026 in the last Patch.

The good news is Don, and I got this tank built last year and put into the last Patch.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...5b142b6e018c78

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

And now this happens
https://twitter.com/shashj/status/16...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

The plans were to give all T-72 what already happens then PT-91 which goes to Ukraine now probably Leopards first 2A4 then 2A5 and as last 2PL version. After that Poland will have only Abrams 1A2 + 1A1 as heavy tanks and K2 and than only K2PL as medium tanks. So finally there will be no logistical nightmare with different parts for each tank.

Re: MBT's
 

For now lets just wait and see........

Re: MBT's
 

Poland or any other country using foreign bought or donated tanks or other WILL NOT be able to just send that equipment to another country of their choosing without the permission from the country that sent that in the first place.

Poland can do what they want with their PT-91 tanks as they wish.

As it concerns "their" LEOPARD 2A4/5 and PL, that won't happen without prior approval of the Government of Germany

So as not to have someone think I'm picking on Poland here, the goes for any foreign operator of the ABRAMS as well "and on and on again" etc.

We wait now for Germany, however as you point out that won't happen for at least 2-3 years when Poland has decided they have enough K2PL, M1A1 and M1A2PL ABRAMS tanks in country with fully trained crews and Maintenace support staff and facilities in place.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

RE: AMX-10RC


https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...h=3ce4d34f38bd

The interesting aspect of adding the AMX is it complements the capability of the BTR's and adds significant additional firepower. Speed, armour, amphib ability is similar for both vehicles

Re: MBT's
 

The current updated model is also being thrown out there is the AMX-10RCR which should be in the French OOB.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...ian_tanks.html
https://www.armyrecognition.com/fren...icle_data.html

Uses the 105mm F2 DU munition developed in the mid 90's and supposedly there is a more very recent HEAT round it now has either exclusively or in combination to the F2 round.

Is NOT amphibious so they could mount the add on steel armor you see in the pictures for protection against RPG's and similar HEAT weapons.

Has an extended turret bustle which is plain to see for "storage" of some kind.

"Infra-Red Counter Measure System (LIRE), mounted on the forward part of the left side of the turret that has been designed to decoy and confuses anti-tank guided missiles (ATGW) with semi-automatic command-to-line-of-sight guidance (SACLOS) system."

"A bank of four Gallix grenade launchers is mounted to each side of the main armament, in front of the turret. This can launch a wide range of series of grenades such as smoke, anti-personnel, and decoy." (I know I know but this is a newer ref. than when Gallix "bounced back into our universe a few years back again.)

There's more in the "Tech Data" section certainly is better than the base AMX-10RC.

Other tanks or if you will "I like it when I'm right once in a while."...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...o_ukraine.html
(Just read the last para.)
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...tle_tanks.html
(Para 5 covers BOTH of these issues.)

We're going to see much more of this "stuff" for a long while.

For now, I'm just happy I beat these guys by 2 or 3 days.

Maybe I should apply for a job as an Anal-list :D :p :doh:

To the other thing, three of the last five tanks that Russia "donated" (Articles are even using that term but I believe they're being :rolleyes: in doing so!?!) I came across a "linkage issue" as all military equipment has a "hierarchy"

I've been chasing a "ghost tank" as it appears to be in the OOB but shown as a T-72B1M.
That tank was the T-72B2 you might remember as the T-72 Rogatka which was how it was named I believe at the time when we rightly DELETED it.

Sites show it "now" as the T-72B2 Rogatka. One of my sites says Russia has 300 of them. But EVERYONE else is saying this tank was just too expensive to build.

So, the Russians decided to come up with a new tank the T-72B3.
This tank incorporated many subsystems of the T-72B2 but on systems such as the FCS especially it wasn't as good (On B3).

Unless you still have that data for the T-72 ROGATKA, my intention is now to rename the two T-72B1M (Closest match from a couple of sites was the T-72B1MS "White Eagle" export tank.) to the T-72B3.

Currently on my screen I have the OPLOT-M, T-90, T-90A, T-723(M), T-72BM, T-72B1M, T-80BV and T-80BVM up on it as I've had for 3 days now.

The numbers and hierarchy with a couple of minor tweaks just looks right to me now and the "mystery" is to my mind solved.

But this is where I was before myself and my partners, ME and I were before we together realized something wasn't making sense.

RUSSIA/CHANGE/T-72BM/UNIT 037/RENAME/T-72B3/START/JUN 2013 VICE JAN 1997/VISION 40 VICE 30/MG 125mm 2A46M-5 VICE 125mm GUN 91(?)//A very easy comparison against the current Russian T-73B3 UNIT 697 should “clear up” any doubts along with the below ref. of this change.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/russ...act_sheet.html
UKRAINE/ADD/T-72B3 (83) +/COPY/RUSSIAN REVISED UNIT 037/PVR MAR07-DEC01 2022/START AUG 2022/NEAR PEER/UKRAINIAN UNIT 042 & 043. //

How wrong "we" were. ;)

Half measures are unacceptable to me.

If you need answers, look to what happened at NAS Corpus Christi, Tx about 2-3 years ago.
https://news.usni.org/2020/05/21/sho...er-neutralized

But don't worry I have "fun" at work though another guard on the shift has compared me to a "CYLON CENTURIAN" from the original Battlestar Galactica with the "roving" red eyes constantly scanning. I think that's a compliment!?! Too bad we don't have one of those EM-ME-G-MOES out here. :D

Since I didn't get to bed until 0400 this morning after work and our grandson was with us for a couple days before starting his sophomore year at SCAD I'll get back to it tomorrow now that the path forward is clear.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Right now I have the Amphibious AMX-10RC entered. IF the French send the RCR I will change it but the RC is a better fit to complement and add fire support to BTR formations.

Re: MBT's
 

First Brits wants to sends Challenger 2 to Ukraine about 10 tanks but are some concerns hat will be great to send 50 to made any difference on eastern front.
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/ukrai...edia-5388.html

Here again about Leopard 2 from Poland for Ukraine is planed to send around 10 and Finland plans to add also some similar number
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/as_pa...anks-5409.html
https://www.politico.eu/article/fran...ks-to-ukraine/
https://www.politico.eu/article/finl...-nato-defense/

Germans also gave green light for Leopards from Poland
https://www.politico.eu/article/pola...robert-habeck/

Here is story which versions of Leopard 2 Ukrainians expected and from which country's?
https://en.defence-ua.com/weapon_and...ctor-5420.html

Re: MBT's
 

When ( IF ) they cross the boarder. I'll put them into the OOB but not before. I've already pulled out a number of things that were added from info that turned into nothing

Re: MBT's
 

sigh...........:doh:

UK to send Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine, Rishi Sunak confirms

Published 33 minutes ago

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-64274755

Re: MBT's
 

Well, the Challenger 2 has been building up for a while over the last couple of weeks. But this is why I'm here,
this from 1945 and here's the headline...
The Leopard 2 Tank Is Headed to Ukraine to Fight Russia

Now from the article...

Para 3: "But Germany, the manufacturer of the Leopard 2, continues to be hesitant to send the main battle tank to Ukraine. "

Paras 12/13: "But Germany is still reluctant to give the green light and supply Kyiv with the tank."

"As the manufacturer of the tank, Germany would have to grant a re-export permission to Poland, potentially Finland, and indeed any other perspective supplier of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine. "

Ref.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...55ebd648ebc64a

The above is indicative of several articles on this and other related equipment.

This is the TRAP we've found ourselves in many times over the years. Many people have said over the years including myself, it's not going in until it's there and for my part the crews and maintainers are on the ground and trained. We ALL REALLY need to think about "holding the line here" AND JUST BE PATIENT.

I do not doubt that the Ukraine will get these tanks.

All I'm saying is THERE IS NO RUSH TO GET THESE IN THE GAME TO FIT THE "DEADLINE" FOR THE NEXT PATCH.

That can be easily handled. They won't get them before the next Patch has to be completed in the next 6-8 weeks or less to be ready for release.

We will hopefully be playing this game long after it expires so, from a player's standpoint does it REALLY matter WHEN THEY GET IN AS LONG AS THEY DO?

This will give Andy and Don after some time off I HOPE several months to focus on the weapon slot issue and others that the Ukrainian War has caused.

Sometimes I feel "I'm the lone voice in the woods" but, only to make the analogy vice comparison, they said the same thing about Churchill in the years before, well actually both World Wars.

I have to get ready for work. TGIF!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

YEAH BUT......... it's Saturday. You may be in for a surprise when you show up......

Re: MBT's
 

I wish it were so but, as you already know military bases never shutdown so no surprise for me yesterday.

I'm a Tue. - Sat. kind've guy by choice as I'm the 6th (I was 184 when I first went full-time back in OMG Jan 2005 after 10 months as a part timer.) senior member of the guard force I have the pick of my shift and days off, 4 weeks paid vacation (After 6 yrs.), health, vision and dental on top of my military retired benefits and pension and I can assure you we don't get "mall cop" pay either. :p

Best of all I get to shoot weapons, fight the "Redman" and still run the obstacle course and rescue that "darn" idiot Mr. Sandman who every year manages to find himself strapped into a "burning" vehicle at the end of the course. Thank God he lost some weight as he used to come in at 180 lbs. now he's down to 150lbs. :D

Better still I complete the course in a time 2 levels below mine (50 and until you're in the ground :shock:) in other words guys that are up to 40 years younger than me. :cool:

Along with our "sister" base on the West coast, we're the only armed contract civilian guard component in the "DON" and I believe in the DOD.

Hopefully I'll just have ONLY 4 more Summers left plus 8 months with the house being already paid off along with the new car coming this year if I'm lucky a nice Pre-owned Certified Audi A6 or similar. I just want for us to have that "nice ride" to drive before well riding will be the only thing we do!?! :rolleyes:

It sure sounds good to me!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Now to serious business...
Do we care about at this time about a German M-48 based mine clearing etc. piece of equipment?

It's for the Ukraine and is already confirmed as in country as operational. I haven't verified it's in the German OOB however I seem to think I came across it as a player and for "work" purposes.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe..._vehicles.html

I believe it can wait but that's your call.

To the AMX-10RC EVERYTIME someone posts an article on this for the Ukraine they are posting a picture of the AMX-10RCR WHY?

I'm really seeing too much evidence to support the latter vice the former.

Around 460 AMX-10RC vehicles were built and put into service between 1979-1980. In 2000 the contracts were signed to upgrade the AMX-10RC to the AMX-10 RCR to meet the real threats from Russia but mostly to address the RPG/ATGW threats from their own combat experiences. Around 260 units were built based on attrition and foreign sales in the 20 years the AMX-10RC already served up to 2000.

Also, that newer round for the AMX-RCR has an effective range 1200m against "heavy" tanks and 2200m against NATO standard Triple Heavy Targets.

Reference 1. They are at a minimum of 2 months out before delivery. But also note like with the other articles posted that's a AMX-10RCR in the picture AGAIN.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe..._2_months.html

Reference 2. This is indictive from others concerning the transition from "RC" to "RCR". It also has a picture of a PROPER AMX-10RC. And as taken from the below,

"The first AMX-10 RCs entered service in 1979, and the vehicle has cemented the French Army’s love for wheeled tank destroyers. In 2000, the RCs were upgraded to the Renové (Mine-that's the "R" in the RCR.) standard and are expected to remain in service until 2020-2025, at which point they should be replaced by the EBRC Jaguar (Mine-France just got the first 16 by Dec 2022. Not operational yet.) ."
https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldw...-10-rc-rcr.php

The RCR is not in the French OOB.

I see a fix for it plus I also see 1- or 2-unit deletions.

Why I'm not surprised but given the dates, this issue is another of many that got in the game I've already uncovered of the years (AMBRAMS comes to mind right now.) BEFORE Andy and Don continued the game.

Finally I don't mean this in a "vindictive" manner, however, who cares that the Ukraine captured ONE T-90S?

ORNX (Good to see they're keeping out.) is reporting 2 destroyed and 1 captured. The value here is "They're robbing Peter (Foreign Customer.) to pay Paul (The Battlefield.)" result loss of money for Russia a good thing.

Now to the player 1. I hope you've been paying attention to the posts concerning the weapons slot and other issues affecting the game "architecture" at this time.

2. Based on that and having to ONLY choose between the Russian T-90A or the lesser capable T-90S WHICH WOULD YOU CHOOSE?

On my Russian capture list based on the data we have and the minimum standard I spelled out in the Patch Thread (2+1) I can safely say the Ukraine can and has fielded the T-90A.

That's the one I'd pick (OK have picked.) between the two.

A song from around '83-'84 comes to mind right now from Franky goes to Hollywood "RELAX" we all need to do that right now afterall "War is Hell." at least currently in our world.

And please before someone thinks it or says it, I make no light of the real thing anywhere in the World. My Dad served in three wars up until he retired in Dec 1969 after 28 years, and his one wish for my brother and I were "I hope you boys will never have to see the horrors I did in war when you grow up. "

So, on that "Cheery" note "RELAX" that song though is making me have this urge to take a shower for some reason!?! :eek: :D ;) :cool: :rolleyes: alright it feed that urge also.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Pat.

DO NOT bother obsessing over RC vs RCR. When they show up we'll know for sure. We could play these maybe this maybe that games forever.. I know because a quarter century of doing this sometimes feels like forever.

AND the RCR IS in the French OOB it's just named "wrong" ( AMX-10RC sbd U12, 13 and 41 ) and has been changed (and they have new photos now). Any without amphib speed has the added armour but IMHO the old one with amphib ability suits Ukraine better because they can work with BTR's but we really don't need to get too bent out of shape over it... I'm not. French OOB unit 41 is now named RCR and the Ukrainians have the RC with the G2 gun/ammo until I know for sure what it is......speculation I don't have time or energy for

If an AMX has text that says "This vehicle is fitted with add-on armor and without amphibious capability.*" it is the RCR upgrade

Re: MBT's
 

I actually had it in my notes to seek to revise French UNIT 012 to the RCR as that is the one, I put the "? " mark against.

That you increased the armor value as well is the bonus. THANK YOU!

All this "other stuff" going on has just gotten me all "amped up".

I'm with you we're either going to see the AMX-10RC sbd or AMX-10RCR whenever those planes land in the Ukraine.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Scroll Down on this story from BLOOMBURG concerning German LEOPARD 1 (88) and 2 (22) that Rheinmetall has available. Ones from BUNDESWEHR I feel are unlikely as the newer tanks are undergoing conversion to the newest LEOPARD 7 version. Hell, I'll just post it as I just realized this is a daily update story.

"Rheinmetall CEO Says Leopard Repairs Take a Year (9:15 a.m.)
The maker of Leopard tanks says it would take about a year to get the vehicles it has in inventory ready for the battlefield, meaning deliveries to Ukraine couldn’t start before 2024, Rheinmetall CEO Armin Papperger said told the Bild newspaper.

The German defense company has 22 Leopard 2 tanks and 88 Leopard 1 vehicles, “but we can’t repair these tanks without an order, because the costs are several hundred million euros and Rheinmetall can’t finance that in advance,” he said.

The comments are likely to put more pressure on the German government to approve deliveries of vehicles in active service. Countries including Poland and Finland have said they’re ready to send their Leopards to Kyiv."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...019addc4360918

And the world continues "to spin round and round again" and while it does, WE continue to wait and see as it does.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Don,
You'll need these (Or some other.) for T-80BVM UNITS 046 AND 048. The current tank pictures are of the T-80BV.

Distinctions are in... "The improved protection suite is what gives the T-80BVM its new look. Older Kontakt-1 ERA of the T-80BV has been replaced by new Relikt ERA. This covers large portions of the skirts, the hull front and the frontal arc of the turret. Relikt is not only effective against HEAT warheads, but also increased protection against kinetic projectiles. The main armor of the T-80BV remains unaltered. The rear of the tank has been fitted with cage armor, providing a degree of protection against HEAT warheads. There are reports that Arena-M active protection system is to be fitted in the near future." ORNX clearly shows they.

Also, not noted is that the T-80BVM are not equipped with rear mounted fuel tanks as currently shown in the OOB.

These are Ukrainian captured units in use (They have ~35 at this time.). The Ukrainian 93rd Mechanized Battalion is the only one I've found using them so far.
Attachment 16814 Attachment 16815

Refs for further validation...
https://weaponsystems.net/system/835-T-80BVM
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...bvm_tanks.html
https://tass.com/defense/1098733

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Stupidity comes in MANY forms. I provide one real life example while I was onboard at that time PCU NEBRASKA SSBN-739 @ Electric Boat (EB) Groton, CT. IN '92/'93.

A senior Torpedo Man (TM) First Class (E6) while searching for wire suitable for hooking up the speakers to his home entertainment and music system in the shipyard came across the "find of his life" when he came across more than he needed, and we all know "more is better".

After work he promptly went home with his "treasure" hooked everything up, inspected his work and found all was in order. When he turned it on, he blew up all his equipment, was thrown across the room and suffered from burns on his hands and body and also managed to start a fire in his house. Fortunately, his Wife and kids were in another room at the time and suffered no injuries.

He would make the USN wide QTRLY. Safety Bulletin (A TM1/SS at...) and as you can imagine launch an investigation leading to fines against the contractor for improper disposal of an explosive equip. and more.

The bottom line here is don't use DETONATION CORDS FOR YOUR HOME ELECTRONICS!!!! You know what's coming...:doh: :rolleyes: :D :eek:

So, in the spirit of the above, and to "lighten up" the mood around here let's start with the following video I sometimes wish I could use it at work however it might seem inappropriate. One of my heroes from back in the day...
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?&...VRV&ajaxhist=0

So, in a bid to do the same as all above a Russian Sargent does this...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...b693c2264f76d9

Ammo we got that to...
https://www.newsweek.com/russian-sol...nition-1773898

Tank repairs we also have that...
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-acci...lgorod-1773639

There were also several reports last week of a Russian artillery crew blowing themselves and their "tube" up while conducting an attack.

All tragic and it's what happens on a battlefield when in constant contact with your adversary.

Cartman and I hope you won't handle any explosive devices anytime soon and because Cartman is afterall Cartman... :angel
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?&...VRV&ajaxhist=0

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

:doh:Oi!

Re: MBT's
 

Just an FYI - I have decided that the Captured Russian tanks will stay in the Ukrainian OOB but they all will be given the 159 Unit class = "Captured tanks" So they will not show up in normal Ukrainian armoured formations but will be available in one and twos.

The APC's etc for now are in normal formation UC's

Re: MBT's
 

Agreed the photos of these things do not show rear fuel tanks

BUT

https://i.redd.it/l9mq4gy73as61.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NplMZwg.png

But NOTE the cradles to hold them ARE there

Re: MBT's
 

Should be an interesting day tomorrow... MAYBE

"pledging" is one thing..... the M-84 comes to mind....... it's what crosses the border that counts

Re: MBT's
 

Just more dithering

Re: MBT's
 

i SHOULD BE IN THE SHOWER BUT SAW THIS. sTORY GOOD SCROLL TO BOTTOM FOR WHY i'M not WERE i SHOULD BE now!!

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...yker_apcs.html

Pat

Re: MBT's
 

Wonderful.........

Re: MBT's
 

This has been inside my head for almost three months now and has come more to the forefront while working on my submission.

The country is currently taking a neutral stance on the Russian Ukrainian War though there is some talk within the country of maybe sending humanitarian aid.

There's also been no mention from the Western allies concerning this tank at all which is somewhat surprising given the push especially earlier in the war to get the Ukraine tanks they're used to operating.

The country I'm talking about has 48 such tanks that beat out at least one European, a couple of Russian and finally I believe it was one Chinese offering during those countries tank competition around 2010.

Need more? OK, ended up buying Chinese VT-4 tanks so that they could retire their M-48 "Bulldogs".

Time to end this "madness" and get it out of my head.

Besides the fact they REALLY like this tank, why at least publicly hasn't anyone approached Thailand concerning buying or trading for the 48 OPLOT-T tanks they have and sending them back to the Ukraine?

Just had to get that off my shoulder.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

South Korea could also donate the 33 T-80s they got as a part exchange from Russia to settle a trade debt, those things must be total orphans in thier tank fleet...

Re: MBT's
 

Forgot about those. I believe S. Korea just retired them in the last couple of years.

The real upside is S. Korea has taken good care of them as well.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Poland will send more T-72 and BWP-1 enough to equip whole tank mechanised brigade. This is what is possible to be done in that dire situation on eastern front.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...wp-1_ifvs.html
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/ukrai...land-5517.html

Is also considered to send Leopard 2 even without German approval and their support. That was already done when soviet license build T-72 where delivered in this last year without Russian approval to re-export their design :) even they were quite against this ;)

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe..._approval.html
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/polan...sent-5516.html

https://en.defence-ua.com/news/poles...anks-5502.html

Re: MBT's
 

The tight control the Germans keep on their exports may be why South Korea armour is gaining attention

Re: MBT's
 

Here is story of Leopards in polish service with dates of deliveries and answere why Poland in near future wants to have only Korean and US tanks

https://en.defence-ua.com/events/how...them-5461.html

Re: MBT's
 

Breaking international export restrictions would have dire consequences for the BUYER exporting country and have possible unforeseen consequences for the importers of modern weaponry such as tanks etc. across the board.

Regardless of the considerations are the other political consequences with Poland's neighbor to the West and possibly in NATO and there's nothing more Putin would love to see right now.

If Poland moved ahead and violated the Germans "sovereign" right to protect their technology under international contract law, what for instance would the United States think could potentially happen to their M1A1 and M1A2PL ABRAMS once in Poland's hands?

Will they send them to the Ukraine?

Even a "watered down" ABRAMS can be reversed engineered to a point to provide at least some insight of what came before and to see into the future a little.

What do you think we're doing right now with the Russian T-73B3/B3M, T-80BVM, T-90/90A and the T-90MS?

But the BIG DIFFERENCE is that Russia a BELIGERENT in the war and NATO isn't.

I don't know what plans Don has for those tanks; I'll assume he will stay with when they get there which maybe next year and we're not chasing dates.

But does anyone really 12-14 CHALLENGER 2 tanks and maybe 50 LEOPARDS are going to win this war? In the game depending on how Don allocates them you might be able to buy as many as you want

But if truly official this just came across the wire.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...2ad749165d514c

Told you I'm always watching.

To make my final point anyway, Thailand sending back their OPLOT-T (48) & S. Korea T-80 (33-Andy) would help as they require no training and they have the ammo same for next, the Russian Capture tanks (i.e., T-72B3M @ 100+) will and are having a more immediate impact at least in stabilizing the front.

And the news I just posted in NO WAY changes anything I posted as above. As the ref. says Germany has "green lighted" this release.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

further to that......

Minister: Germany won't block Poland giving Ukraine tanks
Story by The Canadian Press • 2h ago

Re: MBT's
 

What both the Challys and the Leos will be is the Number 1 priority target for destruction or capture or both as a propaganda coup

"They" will want photos like this to show the world

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2018...7403386722.jpg

One wrecked NATO tank is worth 100 photos of lid-flipping T-72/T-80/T-90 and we've seen A LOT of those images

Re: MBT's
 

Well, that didn't take too long!

As soon as Don and I posted the good news that Germany has allowed Poland to release their LEOPARD 2A4/5 tanks to the Ukraine the internet is going a little "crazy" about why Germany won't release theirs.

Even the ones released will require a Maintenace period and training, lots of training. Summer at best if they're going to give those crews a chance in battle.

Now to Germany proper, they don't have that many tanks (Poland operates almost as many and Spain and Turkey more of them.) and most are being "RESET" to the LEOPARD 2A7V+ (Which is in the game.)

So, what can Germany do?

Well one a "quick" option is to release their active service LEOPARD 2A5 tanks used for training and if you will, an active reserve force.
https://news.yahoo.com/19-german-leo...112200697.html

What about BUNDERWEHR stores?
The above touches on that however, we don't know if they'll commit those.

WHY?

Germany just passed its largest Military Budget I believe I read, since the Cold War and are going to enter into a major expansion across all branches. This will include a much larger tank force afterall Germany is a big country.

What about Rheinmetall?

Glad you asked!! :D I'll just copy from the below...

"Battle tanks from German industrial reserves wanted by Ukraine will not be ready to be delivered until 2024, the arms manufacturer Rheinmetall has warned, increasing pressure on Nato allies to support Ukraine with armoured vehicles in active service instead, ahead of a key meeting this week."

What are those tanks?

"Rheinmetall, which manufactures the battle vehicle’s gun, has 22 Leopard 2 and 88 older Leopard 1 tanks in its stocks. Getting the Leopard tanks ready for battle, however, would take several months and cost hundreds of millions of euros the company could not put up until the order was confirmed, Papperger said."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ady-until-2024
https://www.usnews.com/news/world/ar...armsmaker-says
("The German army has only around 350 Leopard 2 tanks today, compared to some 4,000 battle main tanks at the height of the Cold War.")

Tanks ain't cheap! Some of you that have been following for some time now might remember me using the USA term "RESET" going back to when I submitted the ABRAMS SEP V2 which was the first time I saw the term used.

That is what Rheinmetall intends to do if "green lighted" to start processing those tanks. By conducting a RESET you are for a DEEP RESET (SEP V2) gutting it and stripping the armor layers off the hull. In other words, a brand-new tank.

But Rheinmetall is talking in terms of months, so what I see especially for the LEOPARD A15 (My pick as to what they have.) is to remove all analog systems and installing all new digital ones so new FCS to include TI/GSR etc. , enhancing gun operations Stabilization etc. and a new armor package I can see AMAP on this tank which was used I believe first on the later 2A5 and up to mid 2A6 tanks.
https://rheinmetall-defence.com/en/r...etail_1408.php
(There are newer versions now.)
https://www.military-today.com/tanks/revolution.htm
(For example purposes.)

If they do as I'm not afraid to put myself out there, that based on the STEEL limitations of the A15 armor numbers in the late 2A4 to early/mid (?) 2A5.

That's of course conjecture on my part. And I own that! :p

Well, I close out with what is the LEOPARD situation in the West (Asia (Singapore notably) & South America (Chile notably) are not covered.), well I got that covered to! :cool:
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe..._and_why_.html

Now leave Germany alone afterall I was a citizen after I was born for about 3yrs. don't ask I might have to shoot you!?! :rolleyes:

From the editor: The above statement is NOT meant as a "Terrorist Threat" the staff has determined it was only a joke. :D
However, Joe is missing if you see him, please let us know where he is. Never mind we (:ghug:) decided we didn't like him anyway!?! ;)

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Well I guess I will hang mine in the breeze as well so this is all supposition as well

Even if Poland, for example, starts sending Leos next week I suspect there will be a flurry of selected crew "familiarization" sessions in Ukraine. The Ukrainians have shown themselves to be fast learners AND (really important) they have been actively at war for 11 months.

There is "peacetime" training and "wartime" training and there is an expected spring offensive coming so there will be an intensive drive to get crews in these things learning how they work and I would assume this familiarization will be 24/7 because you need back up crews trained

So......... don't think in leisurely peacetime terms for readiness. My bet is two months tops after the first ones arrive because IMHO "the other side" is, IMHO, not going to wait until after the spring thaw but that is the big unknown but if it was me I would have crews in those first tanks rotated 24 hours a day.

HOWEVER.... It would not surprise me to learn that there have been select Ukrainian crews training on them in Poland on the QT and if they have ( wouldn't you if you could ? ) then they may ( maybe--should ) have operational readiness before we release the next upgrade. They NEED those things ready before the spring otherwise they are wasted, Don't think in peacetime terms

Re: MBT's
 

I understand the training part very well as we trained for war nonstop for it especially while at sea over my 12yrs under the seas.

I framed the "timeframe" the way I did because of what's been reported thus far concerning the Ukrainian T-55S with a fairly advanced western FCS and gun.

They received the first of those tanks on 30 Oct '22 the Forbes article from about 10 days ago or less in my submission package clearly stated from the reporter on the scene they were still in training with them.

It also took some time to add the SLAT and additional ERA package that might've taken two weeks (?) given the numbers involved.

But the training goes beyond knowing your equipment, it's also knowing how you are expected to operate with the units you'll be working with.

We used the concept of CONOPS all my career whether at sea or while at the Admirals Staff Operations Center @ SUBGRU 10. This concept is used by all our military across the board. I'm sure same for all foreign militaries as well. This is as relevant now as when published.
https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Port...231_art011.pdf

We are currently in Germany holding Brigade size training for Ukrainians soldiers at all levels of the C&C to include training for the trainers on the M1A2 BRADLEY ODAS (About 1/2 of our current BRADLEY Fleet of ~2200 units.).

The purpose of which is to teach them how to more effectively use our equipment (Interoperability) for combined arms rapid maneuver movement in battle. They've been at it for about a month. I recently posted on that along w/UK planning to 20.000 Ukrainian troops in England this year.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

If you see a photo of this slat addition post a link

Re: MBT's
 

Alright reposting the article from "FORBES" again.

I copied their picture above the article. I was able to blow it up on my PC to 627% but can't make exactly what's hanging at the rear of the tank. My thinking is either cables or chains.

To the SLAT you can clearly see it on the rear of the turret bustle.

On the sides you should be able to see it just "aft" of the side ERA on the side of the tank. Blowing that up, it just becomes more clearly present and also appears the SLAT is pretty "stout"
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...ks/ar-AA15WpCv

Attachment 16820

The article indicates that there were other pictures taken however I couldn't find them. Maybe on TWITTER?

EDIT: Just verified picture above is SAT and everyone should be able to see the SLAT without any "fancy" stuff.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

The bit on the rear of the turret bustle does not look like slat at all when enlarged but the bits that cover the rear sides do. The bit on the bustle looks like a way to keep things from falling out of the bustle

https://i.imgur.com/OkxymZ1.png

But at least now I know the slat is not covering the rear hull or turret sides

Hopefully, there will be more images posted

Re: MBT's
 

I agree with you on that. I was so focused what's "hanging" from the rear that I missed that completely when I "blew up" the picture at my end. :doh:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

I've sat on this for a few days now, one reason for this is simply on our "game world" these tanks won't really matter based on what's in the game now and what's to come.

But more importantly what would be the political fallout from these tanks and the country sending them.

The Middle East and Africa has been generally neutral on the Ukrainian War issue. And none have donated any military equipment until now.

I speck of Morrocco who (Along with Tunisa) who have recently just sent the Ukraine 20 modernized T-72B tanks that arrived last week. This commitment actually came about in April '22.

Russia had hoped that the Middle East would stay neutral concerning the war to protect their own interests there. One of them being Algeria.

Morrocco and Algerian relations aren't necessarily on the best of terms right now and haven't been for a while. But the other problem is the Middle East has a lot of tanks. And Morrocco has just "cracked open" the faucet. How just follow the refs.

https://www.military.africa/2023/01/...torn%20country.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...ry/ar-AA16EcRK

Now to the "faucet" it appears Germany has been working behind the scenes with Jordan. This to take some pressure off I'm sure concerning the LEOPARD tank issue at their end.

The thing is Jorden doesn't have any LEOPARDS (Well not yet if this gets done. ;)) however, they do have 400 Challenger 1 tanks in storage. except for the below I'll leave the rest for to read the ref. someone has to go to work.
"Overall, Challenger 1 destroyed roughly 300 Iraqi Soviet-made tanks, while the Iraqi forces failed to take a single tank out of combat. During operation Desert Storm the Challenger 1 tank engaged an enemy target at a range of 5,100 m."

Need I say more? Read the ref.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...o_ukraine.html

Obviously, this bears watching.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

To say the situation is " fluid and evolving" would be a gross understatement

I had not considered the Jordanian Al-Hussein/Challys but according to Wiki ( So I will be digging deeper ....BUT that info originated from Janes )

https://web.archive.org/web/20180701...red-formations

Challengers will be phased out of service and replaced by 141 ex-Italian Army B1 Centauro 8x8 Mobile Gun Systems as well as ex-German Marder 1A3 Infantry Fighting Vehicles[/quote]

and according to Janes they are already in service so I need to get those into the OOB's

Janes claims the Al-Hussein/Challywhich doesn't say much about their servicing history so these will likely require a LOT of time and effort to be serviceable but there may be enough to get at least a couple of companies running with a lot of "spare parts" not any time soon and another nightmare for Ukrainian supply officers


FUN!

Re: MBT's
 

That's maybe for another day-however since you brought it up, we addressed their heavy tank issue last year when OMAN donated a large amount of their LeClerc tanks to them. We don't have the latest updated one that UAE (GULF STATES OOB) UNITS 028 (Can't find the 2nd one!?!) and sent to JORDAN UNIT 038 as we entered last year to fill the hole.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...to_jordan.html
(READ PARA 1. "All these units are equipped with older tanks such as the Tariq (Centurion), the M60 A1, the Al Khalid (Chieftain), or the Al Hussein (Challenger1)."

I'm really here to present a viable standard EXPORT version of the M1A1 ABRAMS.

I am currently a little :cold: right now as how the xxxx did the USMC end up with so many FEP tanks!?! Where I asked for those units to have TROPHY removed PROBALY should've been to delete them! I feel better now not what I wanted to deal with coming home from work. Of course, this came up while looking into the OOB to give you the following. :rolleyes:

The news is we're sending M1A1 ABRAMS to the Ukraine in the DOZENS so Poland you're not going to get as many now. The first USMC M1A1 tanks left Sierra Depot for Anniston Depot almost 2 weeks ago at that time for upgrade to the M1A2C (SEP 3) . That upgrade won't happen now since Poland and as of yesterday afternoon the Ukraine made the news.
https://www.dvidshub.net/video/86733...ton-army-depot

I thought I'd have more time on this, but I've taken a good look into this proposed EXPORT M1A1 ABRAMS.

I used the following "primary" units (As there were about 3 more.)

IRAQ/M1A1 SA ABRAMS/UNIT 006//USMC/M1A1HC/UNIT 840//USMC/M1A1HC TUSK-T/UNIT 853//

I choose to work with USMC UNIT 840 to minimize the changes and it was simply a better fit.

First ...
USMC/CHANGE/M1A1HC/UNIT 840/END/DEC 2025 vice SEP 2009/SATISFIES USMC NEED FOR A NORMAL M1A1 ABRAMS/REMINDER FEP BOOSTED FCS. //

UKRAINE/ADD/MODIFIED USMC/M1A1HC/UNIT 840/AS BASE/CHANGE FOR EXPORT VERSION/TI/GSR 45/FC 50/STEEL TF 90/TR 15/HEAT HF 95/TR 35/TIME ALLOWS FOR IMPROVEMENT OVER IRAQ M1A1 SA/FACTORS IN DU REMOVAL. //
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...ck/ar-AA16HvWm
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...ne/ar-AA16HMEu
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/24/u...s-ukraine.html
(News broke around 2000 Washington time.)

UAE and JORDAN can wait, and I was on that last year. Please just leave that for me you have Ukraine to deal with as more important right now BEFORE WE ALL FALL OVER!

I have got to get to bed.

I retirement can't ^!@#*$? get here soon enough!?!

EDIT: Why I say we need to SLOW DOWN things are changing TOO FAST and here's the LATEST!! WE SEND ABRAMS so...
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...anks_mbts.html
(Literally just "popped up" as I was closing out sites. Just my luck!?! :re:)

RECOMMEND/GERMAN/LEOPARD 2A6/UNITS 033 OR 035/WITH NO CHANGES/NO DU ISSUES/FOR UKRAINE//.


Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

I don't have "control" of the USMC OOB at the moment so direct any suggestions to "you-know-who"

******* in the process of doing that now but you need to clarify why if M1A2 ABRAMS are being sent why exactly am I being asked to put the M1A1HC in ?? .......once you'd had your beauty rest......
******** I already have various Leos in the OOB just waiting to be activated so I will do that now...... and Ukraine gets its own Icon
==============

"retirement"..ROTFLMAO I used to be able to got to work to catch a break ! now I'm busier than ever. I laugh at people who ask me " don't you get bored not working?" HAHAHAHAHAHA

NO, and I retired 16 years ago and it's 10:30 and I still haven't finished the coffee I poured at 8am or had my breakfast because I've been in and out of both games testing changes, in and out of the HTMP editor for both game guides adding new info, in and out of my graphics program, in and out of SHPEDIT.... "don't you get bored" :re:

================================================== ===============================================
Here is what just went in. I am using a "generic" 120 L55 "gun"/ammo for this...... guessing there will be no " silver bullets" sent so this will be what the L55 Leos use as well.


https://i.imgur.com/ZtrgKVg.png


https://i.imgur.com/BrjfJoq.png

Re: MBT's
 

As an aside sorta-kinda related to all this. I decided to re-read Clancys " Red Storm Rising"... AGAIN....... I read it again about once every decade.

There are certain passages and actions in that book that sound exactly like current affairs. ( not just 'close" )