Re: MBT's
 

In quotes are from my last post, with additional comment below...

"I used the following "primary" units (As there were about 3 more.)"

I looked at a combination (USA/USMC) of 6 M1A1 ABRAMS.)

"IRAQ/M1A1 SA ABRAMS/UNIT 006//USMC/M1A1HC/UNIT 840//USMC/M1A1HC TUSK-T/UNIT 853//"

My FINAL 3 of the 6 original tanks looked at.

"I choose to work with USMC UNIT 840 to minimize the changes and it was simply a better fit."

It hit the "Sweet Spot" of the six that I would use a "base model" to adjust from for a reasonable M1A1 Export model.

USMC issue is a different matter and will need a further look later. Bottomline maybe only a 1/3 at best of the of the M1A1 saw conversion to the FEP series the rest were simple m1a1 tanks and I felt that USMC UNIT 840 fit the bill, which is why I submitted it new END Date. I'm also looking at TI/GSR 45 for UNIT 840 but I need more info to support this.

Appreciate you used my numbers, needless to say I was ready for bed when done.

This just "popped up", but as you'll see if you read SLOWLY there's nothing, I haven't already mentioned concerning its problems over the years already.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...ttlefield.html

Now it's time to get ready for you know what.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Yeah but...... you said add the M1A1 but also said the A2 was being sent so what do you want me to call this then ?

Re: MBT's
 

Into date for that thing right now is 6/2024 which IS IN THE FUTURE and when more future has passed it will probably get adjusted AGAIN but for now 6/124 is GOOD ENOUGH

Re: MBT's
 

31 are being sent

Reuters says

This suggests if they are deployed to an area they will all be deployed together which may make putting them in their own unit class a possibility but that requires adjustment to the picklists so maybe we just leave it up to individual players

Re: MBT's
 

We'll see how this plays out

Quoting a Forbes article
It very well could be that the US agreeing to supply Abrams was what it took to get Germany to release Leos but that does not mean "right away" what is ready "right away" are Leos so the Abrams may be more of a 2024 start date rather than 2023 but we have a couple of months anyway to get a better idea of what actually is going on and try to get better start dates

Re: MBT's
 

Don,
1. M1A2 was a TYPO ON MY PART. :doh: We have the RIGHT tank. :cool: Post #1498 now corrected. ;)

2. ARMATA START JUN 2024 STILL GOOD. I found the article useful in that it actually seems they were at least close to the Ukraine but more importantly, that it's pretty bad when operationally the forces on the ground found conditions so bad with the ARMATA that they had to be sent back as they were completely unusable.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...abe77c668cb223

3. 31 units makes up the Standard Ukraiian tank Battalion. The plan is to form 3 complete heavy armor Battalions of 1 ABRAMS and 2 of mixed LEOPARDS from donating users likely to be Poland, Finland and or other NATO countries. Sweden might offer up STRV 122 as well.

However, these are well short of the 300 being requested.

Taking the above real-world situation into consideration, and applying to our game world, I'm requesting you give consideration to allowing the player to buy as needed the T-72B3 (83+ Captured) and T-72B3M (100+ Captured) as I submitted to you last week.

4. Push the START date of the M1A1UKR ABRAMS to SEP 2023.

All reports HERE were it matters are indicating a minimum of 4-5 months before they can even leave the U.S. just to prepare the tanks. Also being mentioned it could be a year before they field them.

One of the issues (Of many.) is the fuel type and consumption. If you're unaware the ABRAMS normally uses Jet Fuel. Where the Ukraine is having a hard enough time just to keep Diesel in their tanks for a variety of reasons to include major infrastructure damage to pipelines etc.

From only a logistical standpoint, they have major issues to address in suppling this type of fuel in a war zone. We can do it however we won't be there to do it for the Ukrainians to provide the logistical support this tank needs. IT WILL TAKE TIME. The following addresses these issues and more. So, I really hope you take the time to read these thoroughly to fully understand the situation.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...775d701ae65ec7
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...8e45755f3fa62d
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...55ad53374be61e

Though tied into the above FINALLY in simple terms etc. I found an article that vindicates me on the need for "Export" related tanks from supplier countries and my issue about DU Armor. Halleluiah! :eek: :cool: :D
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...55ad53374be61e

Don and I reverse roles all the time over the years, we keep each other "in check" which provides balance-sometimes.

This time it appears it's my turn to be the contrarian.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Pat. I have read other reports getting bent out of shape over the " jet fuel" (non)issue and a lot of that comes from the original excuses for not sending them as that MSN report shows....

"jet fuel" is the preferred fuel in the US Army and that is what gives the very best performance.

BUT.....the engine was designed to be multi-fuel and those "Pentagon officials" would have or should have known the vehicles engine was multi fuel

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/0...1-abrams-tank/


and further about fuel from another source....(slightly edited for clarity)


and.........

And that "jet fuel" can be plain old Kerosene so "fuel" for them is not a problem except for how much of it you need ( or if nice short "sound bite" excuse is needed for not sending them )

That all said IMHO and I am not alone, Germany needed to be seen as not be the only ones sending "NATO" MBTs and the US sending Abrams allowed them to say "it's not just us" and it *may* have been the UK agreeing to send Challengers that uncorked that particular bottleneck. Abrams and Challengers will be useful but neither of those will be as potentially plentiful from so many other sources as the Leo and from the info I have read, it's also the MBT with the quickest learning curve to operate and maintain.

Re: MBT's
 

I went into Scenario 151 Breaking the Shackles and did some quick substitutions for various 2022 NATO units vs 2022 Russian units. Interesting results. The T-90s look pretty effective but I'm having trouble finding any news source that mentions them being used in any number. Any suggestions?

Will

Re: MBT's
 

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/0...equipment.html

I have NO IDEA when this was last updated

That lists destroyed Russian tanks.
"Tanks (1646, of which destroyed: 967, damaged: 75, abandoned: 59, captured: 545)"

The T-90 is near the bottom

31 T-90A:
3 T-90S: ( that's supposed to be the "export" version )
10 T-90M:

44 total known destroyed or damaged or abandoned....... that should give you an idea of the numbers used but 10% of your force in the game would IMHO be too many unless you were trying to create an "elite" unit

Re: MBT's
 

I was thinking of a mix of 70% T-72 variants and 30% everything else for the Russians. This is too much fun, throwing in K2 and K1A1.

Thanks to everyone for the hard work!

Will

Re: MBT's
 

ORNX is consistently updating this and the Ukrainian list as well, as I noted in my last submission and other posts. By way of example, when I started putting this together last Oct. on my list of equipment to submit (Russian) as captured by the Ukraine I recorded in my notes how many were captured throughout the process until submitted.

T-72B3M (100) + the plus indicated the number had increased since I last recorded it. I would update them also throughout the two weeks I was working on the list on WORD for my final submission to include the night I posted it.

Not all increased in the final night but, 2 tanks and 1 APC did see increases of no more than by 3 units.

In short everyday once a unit has been verified to fall into any of the categories they're using to include the "Unidentified" sections on the ORNX list and as I also submitted in the submission, this lends itself to the validity of the ORNX list.

Track it for yourself you'll see a change on a couple since I posted my submission last week.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/
(Know and "reference" your source.)
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/0...equipment.html
(Russia)
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/0...ukrainian.html
(Ukraine Sroll down this list see what FLAGS also come up from foreign suppliers.)
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/0...ring-2022.html
If it flies both sides.)

Defense and Media are using this site as "another tool in the toolbox" that's good enough for me and as I pointed out in an earlier post it's also good enough for JANE's though CINCLANTHOME doesn't really appreciate that!?! :angel

I almost forgot; I believe Mark S. was the first to bring it up but yes, the T-90S is confirmed by varies media outlets as being involved in the Ukraine. Numbers are mixed however all seem to indicate a small amount only involved.

DIDN'T MAKE MY LIST AS IT DIDN'T MEET MY "2+1" REQUIREMENT AND THERE WAS NO ADDED VALUE TO HAVING THEM IN WHEN I HAD BETTER QUALITY RUSSIAN ONES ALREADY SUBMITTED. NOT SHOUT JUST MISS KEYING IS ALL-SO GOOD NIGHT!!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...d_2_tanks.html

and FWIW Canada has promised 4 2A4's from storage and the info I have is regular maintenance has not been done so who knows if or when they might/maybe get there and if they are the 2A4 or 2A4M


I already have 2A4's and 2A6's "active" in the UKR OOB and we'll see if any 2A5's show up. There are a couple of months yet to nail halfway probably WAG for when they might enter service with Ukraine

Re: MBT's
 

Poland will transfer not only 14 Leopards but also additional older PT-91 Twardy and T-72M1R altogether 60 tanks

Video from Canadian News

https://en.defence-ua.com/industries...anks-5566.html
https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/better...aine-1.6248472
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/poland-is-...ks-to-ukraine/

Re: MBT's
 

The good news is I already had them in the OOB
Did Poland send the non ERA version of the 91 as well ?

https://i.imgur.com/CgYnTzD.png

Re: MBT's
 

There is no Non ERA version of PT-91 Twardy [ That was main advantage over T-72]
But if we talked about T-72M1R they are without ERA bricks but as we saw Ukrainians equip them with ERA their own way

So what I found

This is T-72M1R(+) with Ukrainians additions from part which arrived to them in May 2022 visible are Kontakt Reactive armour on tower and hull also sides. Probably this bath will be upgraded the same way and painted to dark green colour.

https://mil.in.ua/wp-content/uploads...XwAA8UnF-1.jpg

Re: MBT's
 

Ah ! OK.

That is the photo I have in the game and I have it with ERA blocks...... but there are no PT-91's without ERA.. correct?

Re: MBT's
 

Yes they are only in this variant with polish ERAWA era bricks so Ukrainians don't need to upgrade them with their Kontakt-1

Here is only know for me photo of PT-91 in Ukraine they are full green and look like they made for them some modifications but to which extend I don't know.
https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1551490434051997696

In 2016 Ukrainians have plans to join polish modernisation program of PT-91 why because this tank is still based on T-72 which the have and both tanks have many common parts probably this cooperation never happens
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/8466
but they have industrial capacity which can upgrade PT-91 with many additional devices or armour which is nearly identical like on their T-72. For exmaple their industry may use some solutions build for T-72AMT (2020) so is possible that existing variant PT-91"жорсткий"(+) but I have no any photo as for now. They are stories that PT-91 from first batch were used on Cherson direction in October/November.

https://mezha.media/wp-content/uploa..._Twardy_01.jpg

Re: MBT's
 

I have come across a most interesting video from a "private sector" company under contract from the Russian Army to assist them in training tank crews.

This particular tank was in the most recent class to graduate from the school, though it is unsure why it took them two weeks to get to the front with it. It appears from this video they understand why now it took so long.

There are also similar stories of other tanks recently being delayed in getting to the front as well but at the same time, these are currently unconfirmed. But the reports point to the fact they went to the same training and potentially as yet unknown graduated in the same class as the one in the video below.

We are awaiting further information.
https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/...mishap-1777225

While uploading the above video we have received confirmation the missing tanks were from the same school and graduating class. The school is located in a small village about 18 miles SE of Moscow.

The name of the company is as translated "Tanks'r'Us LLC sounds familiar somehow.

It is also now known that all the instructors involved in training that class have been transferred to (I might be off a little on this translation) Gulag Firing-Squad, Siberia!?!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...fabfb4c580d15c

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Yeah........the guys trying to get out of that BMP(?) must have been really impressed with that tank commander as the cannon swept over the top of the vehicle

TO BE FAIR ( I know, it's difficult but.....) it's obvious the unit has just recently come under fire with one other tank with its turret upside down on the ground and probably chunks of what's left of that crew laying all over the place and a BMP smoking and coasting and the tank in question is buttoned up which means the crew has very limited " situational awareness" but they did swing the turret when they realized what as happening.

That may have been the first time that tank crew has seen combat There would have been orders being yelled over the intercom and three crewmen expecting their tank is next ...$hit happens. In combat it happens a lot

Re: MBT's
 

More on the Abrams fuel "issue"

and...........

Re: MBT's
 

From this it would appear than Polish Twardys do not have ERA on the hull sides only the hull front and turret front and side

?

Re: MBT's
 

Don,
You'll be better at finding the posts then me. We had this discussion almost or than 10years ago When I came across the deal from Poland to supply Malaysia with the PT-91 PENDEKAR UNIT 500. This is relevant to the current discussion when you look at the ERA pkg., we gave it. What I don't remember are the particulars that would've been in the refs I supplied at the time; it'll be in this thread. But I do believe it predated the ERAWA-2 ERA.

Also, there's this as well...
Armament section:
"...and 24 grenade launchers fitted with smoke or anti-personnel fragmentation grenades. These are operated in conjunction with the OBRA laser warning system." This just caught my eye.

Design and Protection section:
"...explosive reactive armor Type ERAWA-1 (with one layer of explosive inside) and ERAWA-2 (with two layers of explosive inside) to the hull and turret. The armor package provides protection against the firing of small arms of 7.62, 12.7 and 14.5 mm caliber as well as cannon fragments between 20 and 30 mm."

Mobility:
"The upper part of the suspension is protected by steel armor plates with the forward part covered by ERAWA-1 explosive reactive armor blocks." You can see this clearly in the picture of the ref. below.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/pola..._pictures.html
This ref has been updated as it shows Ukraine as a user. Also, they do a very good job of reviewing the data sheets to update them when a change comes about i.e., adding the Ukraine.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/pt91_twardy.htm

Ref. 1
- PT-91M: export variant for Malaysia with SAGEM Savan-15 fire control system, PZL-Wola S-1000R 1,000 hp powerpack with Renk/SESM ESM-350M automatic transmission bringing its top speed to 70 km/h, and a new communications system. The main armament consists of a "Konštrukta defence a.s." design 2A46MS 125 mm tank gun made by ZTS - Špeciál a.s., a 7.62 mm FN MAG coaxial machine gun and a 12.7 mm FN Browning M2 HB AA machine gun. This variant is also equipped with Sagem VIGY 15 gyro-stabilized panoramic sight optronics, a SIGMA 30 laser gyro inertial navigation system, EADS EPS72 turret stabilization system, a PCO SSP-1 Obra-3 laser-warning system, integrated with ZM Dezamet 902A 81 mm smoke grenade launchers, CBRN warning system Pimco CHERDES II, communication systems: Thales TRC9310-3 F@stnet, Thales TRC3630-3, Thales SOTAS, 3rd gen. ERAWA 2 Explosive Reactive Armour, and Type 570P Diehl Remscheid GmbH tank tracks.

Ref. 2
PT-91M Pendekar export version supplied to Malaysia. This MBT is fitted with improved 125 mm gun, S-1000 engine, new hydropneumatic transmission, French fire control system, new communication system and some other changes.

I well remember now we discussed that Malasia's PT-91 was much better than Poland's at the time.

Now as the ref. suggests Poland has them however, DID Poland actually go forward with this modernization program? If so, is it in the OOB?
https://www.armyrecognition.com/mspo...mspo_2017.html

The next sounds more like it "could've been" ...
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/pt_16.htm

BOTTOMLINE LOOKS LIKE YOU HAVE YOUR ANSWER WITH MALASIA UNIT 500 ON ERA.

I HAVE PERSONAL ISSUES TO ATTEND TO TODAY-HOPE THIS HELPS.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

On this one, the blocks can be seen clearly along the side of the hull so methinks that the drawing is wrong

https://www.armyrecognition.com/imag...gy_925_001.jpg

Re: MBT's
 

Yes from what I see Don and FASTBOAT TOUGH has right drawing is wrong about PT-91 ERAWA on both sides.

I don't know about massive modernisation of PT-91 to M2 variant looks like that was an demonstrator and probably some of modernisations were implemented in Twardy's tanks in recent years but definitely not a RPG cage in rear

Here you have three PT-91 and T-72
https://en.defence-ua.com/media/cont...9088f0e070.jpg[/quote]

But if you look on that photo this is T-72M1R with Ukrainians additions like RPG cage on rear [taken from T-72AMT modernisation] of tower and Kontak-1 so is possible that they also have since May 2022 some upgraded variant PT-91 Twardy(+)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FftFsz6X...g&name=900x900

Here is about this transfer of tanks in January 2023
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/poland-is-...ks-to-ukraine/

Here is also article about T-72M4 modernisation from Czech with have some common systems with PT-91. They also mention there that T-72 Avenger is less expensive than M4 modernisation of T-72M1
https://www.forbes.com/sites/sebasti...h=3958b0f53ce7

And here article about Russian T-72B3 Model 2022 which in some way is modernisation and in other simplification to reduce costs they are already send now to battlefield

https://en.defence-ua.com/industries...rmor-5592.html

Re: MBT's
 

Don and I got the T-72B3M in the game a few years back for Russia.

I saw some "stuff" concerning the T-72B3 2022 when developing my list. That being said, honestly I couldn't see anything to warrant a new tank added when again we the T-72B3M (Sometimes referred to as the T-72B4.).

Also, you'll find when entered (We didn't have a T-72B3.) A very "ROBUST" T-72B3. I was modeled off Russian "CURRENT" UNIT 045.

I submitted it in the Patch Thread for the Ukraine and recently requested that tank and the T-72B3 be released "as needed" for the player vice being limited by the "capture button", tanks make up a combined total of just under 200 captured units which is significant,
and double the number thus far committed by NATO.

I believe you'll find overall that Don and I are pretty close per our captured lists for the Ukraine. I'm sure I submitted a couple he might not have and vise-versa from Don.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

right now it is as good as it needs to be

Re: MBT's
 

Now we're getting word the Ukraine will receive the M1A2 instead of the M1A1 the "BASS TURDS"!! :D

Well, little does the Govt. we're ready for "Will the real ABRAMS-please Standup!!".

Fortunately, we have it covered BOTH ways and doesn't look like we wasted our time in the process. :cool:

I speak of the M1A2PL/T Export Version for M1A2 as entered last year, and the currently "new" built M1A1 UKR Export Version for M1A1. Which I think we'll see more of in the future.

So, to you Govt. and DOD officials (With all due respect. Gotta protect that retirement pay. ;)) and from one of my favorite movies MP and the HG, "I generally SPIT in your general direction you dirty filthy Englishman." :p

So, we're good and as usual we'll have to wait for "Will the real ABRAMS-please Standup!!"
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...ams_tanks.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

The hits keep on coming!

First CHALLENGER:
Will arrive in the Ukraine at the end of March or mine-April as no plan is perfect. Ukrainian crews had just arrived according to this, so that makes it last weekend. Now we have a better picture of the training cycle which puts it at 2 months minimum.

That's how long it takes to train crews on the ABRAMS as well which I posted from USA source about three years back. Tank Commanders take longer as do Platoon Leaders. They'll finish that in the Ukraine if they follow the T-55S current field training taken from the T-55S "SLAT" article I posted last week from FORBES.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...arch_2023.html

LEOPARD 1A5 NO NOT FROM THEM BUT FROM DENMARK
THIS IS NOT ACTIONABLE AT THIS TIME.
That being said it is something we need to track. The deal has not been reached but is in progress from the Company that bought the tanks from Denmark originally. As the article indicates the German company FFG has the capability to further update these tanks but we don't know if they will, depending on the contract IF Denmark can get the deal done in the first place.

We are looking at Denmark LEOPARD 1A5-DK UNIT 023.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...1a5_tanks.html

GERMANY:
Here's a perfect example why training matters and ALL the countries are doing within their normal training cycles. A simple term-"Return on Investment" in others being able to operate them without them getting blown up in the first week of operations,
AGAIN I would point out how the Ukraine is currently training with the T-55S that's been in country since last October (End of.) .

Countries are giving all they have at great cost. The French for example is currently violating the law concerning how low they can go on military equipment; in this case I'm speaking of CEASAR. This article deals with concern over the LEOPARD
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...79ca94e50a7e84

OMG 4am WTF! :eek:

I'm out!

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

POST HAS BEEN EDITED SO YOU CAN ACCESS REF UNDER GERMANY.

Re: MBT's
 

I dug into the DK version a bit and realized the upgrades to that tank made it closer to the Icon used for the Canadian C1 than what was being used so that has been changed and it is added to Ukraine but re-nationalized for now

Re: MBT's
 

https://www.france24.com/en/live-new...ne-bound-tanks


A guess on my part but the training times quoted as "normal" may not quite apply if the crews being trained were already previously trained tank crewmen ......that and training knowing that knowledge will need to be applied for real in a few weeks is another factor

Re: MBT's
 

If you read this story look like Poland in June 2022 already put pressure on Swiss government to send some of their Leopard 2 Pz87
that was rejected then https://mil.in.ua/en/news/the-swiss-...ard-2a4-tanks/ but this comes back in February 2023 https://mil.in.ua/en/news/switzerlan...ks-to-ukraine/

And here about downgraded Russian version of T-80BVM already in production looks like economical sanctions are working in longer terms.
https://en.defence-ua.com/industries..._62m-5539.html

And now article about interesting Belgian company OIP Land Systems which buy 10 years ago many decommissioned Leopard 1 tanks cheaply €37 000 each.

Now he demands 500 000 € for each tanks without any modernisation done during storage :(

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/leopard-1-...t-for-ukraine/
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/britain-pu...b-for-ukraine/

Re: MBT's
 

Here article about Tank Zoo in Ukrainian army (what they have now and in which version and what they expecting in near future)
https://en.defence-ua.com/analysis/t...cted-5572.html

Danish Leopard 1A5-DK for Ukraine also in private hands German Fahrzeugbau Gesellschaft (FFG) company.
https://en.defence-ua.com/industries...gium-5639.html
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/germany-pl...ukraine-media/

And here saga continues with OIP Land systems "we are not a charity,” now 1 million € for each tank.
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/germany-pl...ukraine-media/
https://en.defence-ua.com/industries...sand-5574.html

Leopards 2 from Poland Ukrainians will start training in a few days
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukrainian-...ays-blaszczak/

Re: MBT's
 

It's all about LEOPARDS and THEY'RE "EVERYWHERE"!!

Norway says NO WAY to the K2NO The winner of the tank competition is the LEOPARD 2A7. They are slated to start excepting deliveries in 2026, just a little late for us.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...ther_mbts.html

Well, it's all come "full circle" since I reported late last Fall that Rheinmetall could sell Ukraine their in-stock LEOPARD 1A5 tanks with Govt. approval. Well, that approval like the above came yesterday.

The "full circle" this means to show that everything we thought would happen isn't going to now and it'll be back up to Rheinmetall once funding is available.

There you have it Rheinmetall is our winner, again!?!

All other options appear too now be dead-again.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...r_ukraine.html

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

https://www.army-technology.com/news...rd1a5-ukraine/


I suspect a more accurate guesstimate of an arrival date will be available before April but up until today I had kept these "inactive" in the UKR OOB. They are now "active" in that OOB 5/123..... for now. It's bound to change as better info comes available but 5/123 falls within "the next few months" timeframe...... admittedly at the low end of it and June or July might be more realistic but for the purposes I am dealing with I have two more months to wait as see what develops

The point is this is no longer just talk. There will be Leo 1's sent

Re: MBT's
 

I was trying to find where that mine discussion was from early last week but couldn't find it. No matter now here's an interesting read from earlier this evening when taking a break from my submission list work.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...4ada774472160a

A brief update (Not really.) for "X-COUNTRY" CHANGED 5 tanks with minor modifications based on data and more importantly to support a missing tank in the OOB which is linked to building a further new tank as the export model for X-COUNTRY. So, 5 modified with 2 new build tanks. Total tanks used for this process beside separate refs would be 9 tanks across 2 OOB's.

Those above are done for now (Just recheck and editing before posting.) and moving onto...

Y-COUNTRY to build an export model from an existing tanks in the OOB this should be easier, and I know I'll be looking at 4 (On the fence about a 5th one.) existing tanks to model this properly plus refs already set. Also, for Y-COUNTRY I'm going to build a new tank I feel has a decent chance to make the game and it won't be a "slouch" when I'm through with it. That'll require only 2 existing tanks to build upon to get there and maybe 1 or 2 from I'm thinking 2 other countries.

Z-COUNTRY, well Don might figure this one out but, it needs to have an existing tank modified because like the STRV-122 (And we built that one.) was built to order and was actually a better tank than the exporters own was, the same situation applies here as well. So, 1 modified, 1 to be built due to a major modernization program with that to be copied into another country that currently has a "stop gap" tank there now. And 1 one more for Z-COUNTRY with a further, more current upgrade based on where it was recently in combat in a country far far away!!:D

Z-A COUNTRY Is getting a new modernized tank as well and happens to be the exporter for Z-COUNTRIES tanks above.

But there's been a whole lot of new tanks that have entered service this past year in other parts of the world. Maybe that's what's above I just :dk: :p :D Not to worry one way or another there're in my MBT file anyway. ;) :cool:

Things are moving along fairly well and I'm happy I decided to proceed without sharing the work before I'm ready to submit it because it leads to distractions that certain of us can do without right now. And this is not meant in a bad way towards anyone.

Bedtime calls with a short week as the daughter asked CINCLANTHOME if I could take Sat. off to spend with them. Amazing that even as adults they can still manage to go through Mom to get their way!?! :shock:

I kid afterall how can I say no!! :angel

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Two things

One

We are LOOKING INTO the possibility of allowing " Ottawa signatory" nations to lay anti vehicle/tank mines instead a blanket prohibition of all mines as the treaty covered anti personal mines

So vehicles would trip them but not leg units

MAYBE we can set it up......MAYBE. We have some ideas on how but have other things on the go ATM

Two

I have NO IDEA WTF "Y-COUNTRY" "Z-COUNTRY" or "Z-A COUNTRY " is supposed to be hinting at and I don't have the time ( or patience ) to try to puzzle it out

Just saying........a post like that is "counter productive". I DO appreciate the info you provide but this one..... not so much

Re: MBT's
 

https://www.euronews.com/2023/02/14/...anks-in-poland

in part....

So their training time has been cut in half but these " trainees" are already experienced tank crewmen which is what I expected.

I would be interested to read how quickly they picked up the nuances of driving a Leo compared to their usual ride. How does acceleration forwards and backwards compares as well as their view from the drivers seat

Re: MBT's
 

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defe...o_ukraine.html

Norway to send comprehensive Leopard 2 tanks package to Ukraine

8 Leo 2A4s and up to 4 special-purpose tanks to Ukraine. Norway will also contribute with educating and training Ukrainian tank crews in Poland, along with other allied countries.

Re: MBT's
 

Well, I was looking at my favorites list and found this "orphan" from 2015. What made me save this I can't remember but, I suspect it had to do with these two vehicles ZBD-04A armoured infantry fighting vehicle and the AFT-10 anti-tank guided missile weapon station mounted on the chassis of the ZBD-04A.

Anyway, someone might find this of some use as it's going to deleted from my files.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/armi..._12908152.html

It has a tank in it. :p

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

So Abrams for Ukraine are now consider as early delivery.
31 М1А2 from US army depots there is no exact date but earlier that previously announced Abrams for end of 2023.
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/ukraine-ca...ng-considered/

Germany & Portugal are the only country's which will provide Leopard 2A6 for Ukraine. Portugal government announced that they will provide their tanks in end of March.
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/portu...aine-5817.html

And here article about T-64 repairing plant
https://en.defence-ua.com/news/the_c...rkiv-5824.html

Re: MBT's
 

Well, it's interesting that it is being reported "the transfer of tanks from the Pentagon’s depots is being considered" as that would imply sending the full armour package UNLESS "the Pentagon" has some "export" versions tucked away someplace.

Once again........"Wait and see"

Re: MBT's
 

It would not imply that at all. It simply would by-pass the contractors process as I've already posted that in effect said if the tanks aren't available from Army stocks/depots that the process would much more involve the contractors which would delay the process to up to a year or more. OLD NEWS HERE as already posted. Also Ref. 3 below covers this.

DU Armor just like any other layered Armor application it is simply a "Bolt On/Bolt Off" process. The difficulty will be in the handing of the DU Armor application which will make the process a little longer for that number of tanks I'm thinking something around 3-4 months.

For every export tank I've built to this point with more to come when I don't get distracted by suppositional interpretations of sources, I have for the following seen countless similar verbiage for EVERY TANK I've looked at thus far in the export tank process going back to last year. LEOPARD (Pick one of current service as same for others listed.)/ABRAMS/K2/TYPE 10/CHALLENGER 2/LeClerc/MERKAVA/ARJUN and that's just the "Good Guys". So here we go "CLASSIFIED, OF UNKNOWN ORGIN, SECRET, RESTRICTED DATA, UNPUBLISHED, NO INFORMATION AVAILIABLE. "

I should hope for the UMPTEENTH TIME the point has been made.

But if not...
https://time.com/6250099/abrams-tanks-ukraine-biden/
https://news.yahoo.com/us-send-ukrai...200133242.html
(Ukrainian Source.)
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/0...tanks-00079648
https://www.manufacturing.net/techno...in-ukraine-war
(This is from our TANK FACTORY EVERYTHING I TALKED ABOUT IS RIGHT HERE.)
https://www.newsweek.com/abrams-leop...-first-1776927
(PRILIMINARY TIMELINE.)
https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/27/europ...-ml/index.html
(ABRAMS COULD BE MORE THAN A YEAR SAME AS I've ALREADY POSTED PREVIOUSLY.)

At this point I truly don't know what more I can do.

However as not everyone uses DU Armor, I fully support that if the Ukraine gets the LEOPARD A15 WE give them the best version of it from the OOB same for the LEOPARD 2A4/2A5. We did this with the GEPARD.

But for the rest we build them. So currently I have built the Export versions of the K2/LEOPARD 2A7/2A7V Hybrid, LeClerc, (We) ABRAMS M1A2C last year AND already addressed M1A1/T-55S already submitted and almost finished the CHALLENGER 2. Also finished is a NEW tank the K1A2.

THAT'S WHAT'S TO COME WITHOUT ANY FURTHER DISTACTIONS.

Time is getting short I just wish the posts would end or else Andy and Don and some others will never get our work done so all the things that are required to be finished before the Patch Release can be accomplished, we've been there before, I'm thinking June at the rate the information is coming. That's just me.

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

In 8 hrs. we're on the road it's been four years since we've been to Spring Training w/COVID/LIMITED SEATING and last year the STRIKE now this year we get back into balance and all is right with the Universe again.

Normalcy is a wonderful thing even something as subtle as this that we've been doing now for over 25yrs. now. We all need this in our lives, and it is good.

But before this I leave with this article that builds upon my last post and provides a reasonable timeline on tanks that will probably not be around for both countries Spring Offensive.

LEOPARD 2A4 will be the first to see combat as it stands now, and some of the tanks are in Ukraine now with the goal filling out a full battalion of them and getting them trained up on combined ops as is occurring with the T-55S battalion that's been at it since last Nov/Dec which is due to conclude shortly and it being sent to the NE of Ukraine in March.

This is also seeming to indicate the LEOPARD 2A5 has for now dropped out of the conversation.

LEOPARD 2A6 Germany isn't ready to discuss any timeline for them at this time.

LEOPARD 1A5 well that's going to take a while as well as most haven't had their engines turned over in more than a decade. The German ones however are in better shape but there's another major issue as well more recently being reported so, "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" there better be a whole lot preying going on as there's not much 105mm ammo to go around for those tanks.

Poland is sending 60 PT-91 TWANDY (2 battalions -2.) tanks which should be in Ukrainian hands within the first 2 weeks of March.

MOD indicating CHALLENGER 2 is several months out before they reach the Ukraine.

Since I'm a little tired of feeling like the "bad guy" especially about the next tank I'll just leave the quote from the article...
"As for the 31 Abrams tanks promised by the U.S., they might not arrive in Ukraine this year at all."

"Army Secretary Christine Wormuth told reporters Thursday (23 Feb.) that the delivery timelines could push into well into 2024 at the earliest."

For all the reasons Ref. 3 in my last post discussed.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...4ec2337eed56bb

At best it's a mixed bag. Those 100's Russian captured tanks and the estimated 1/2+ of the tanks the Ukraine have left will be the ones that'll "hold the line" or start the next Ukrainian Offensive.

We might, though I asked earlier for "release" of the T-72B3 & T-72B3M for buy purposes to maybe reconsider some of those other Russian capture tanks of models the Ukraine doesn't have and "release" as well such as the T-80BV/T-80BVM
for buy purposes. They as I posted already field 1 full battalion of the T-80BVM from back in Mar/Apr 2022 with I believe was the 32nd MECH. Battalion (Which were in a couple of pictures sent for those units in my last submission.) .

I need to hit the rack before my sleep time = my drive time (NOT GOOD!!)

It's Peanuts and Cracker Jacks only for the next 5 day's CINCLANTHOME, BASEBALL and NOT BEING AT WORK FOR YOU FANS...
"IS THIS HEAVEN? NO, IT'S IOWA.", OK FLORIDA for US! :D :p :cool:

Regards,
Pat
:capt:

Re: MBT's
 

Pat

There is little point speculating on delivery for anything until it

A/ arrives

or

B/ Mid April when we are doing the final checks

It would be nice if things started being reported arriving but this is our reality ATM. FWIW I do know at least (1) Canadian 2A4 has been put on an air transport to Ukraine ( yeah.....big whoop but there is video of it being loaded and taking off but that could have been footage spliced together

SOMEBODY knows for SURE but it isn't me so all I can do is guesstimate dates until release then next year.......IF there is a next year...... adjust dates for all the incorrect guesstimate.

As frustrating as this all is for us, this is just a game, for Ukraine it's reality.......too many unknowns, too many promises

Re: MBT's
 

This probably known here but I thought it was interesting:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...thermal-sights

Re: MBT's
 

As it turns out, the unit I have in the OOB for those t-62's matches that Thermal sight equivalent..........

Re: MBT's
 

What's the point in adding it.... the other thousand+ wrecks strewn all over the countryside had ERA to little benefit as any decent ATGM is going to blast through them

Not having it may keep the crews from getting "over confident"



EDIT... Sorry Błażej. I thought I was "quoting" but apparently I hit the edit button instead

Re: MBT's
 

I think the real issue is just their ERA isn't as good as they tried to convince the West it was. Very similar to all the stories that have been put on the web over the last several months about Putin dying and he's still here. Patton had an Army with a lot of tanks in England. The Germans were so concerned they tied down divisions thinking he was the "main show" at Calais, France. He never landed there with his Inflatable Tanks.

In a word Deception.

But a important problem was what several of us uncovered about the the ERA bags that were to filled with materials to provide a non-explosive ERA along the lines of NERA. What was found was they were empty or filled with flour etc. while the money to develop that ERA went elsewhere.

Those crews I'm sure felt confident and found out the hard way they had nothing at long, literally.

Regards,
Pat

Re: MBT's
 

I've seen stuff on cardboard "body armor", wood blocks packaged as plastic explosives and other shenanigans. Seems the corruption evidently inherent in the Russian system is really coming back to bite them since they couldn't bluff or bulldoze their way to victory in a few days/weeks.

Re: MBT's
 

From Twitter

"Great overhead angle of the Polish Leopard 2PL, showing very nicely the extent of the additional armour package on the frontal arc of the turret, and the relatively unique turret bustle shape"

https://i.imgur.com/grDkQsQ.jpg