Re: Perpetuality - The 60 Player MegaGame (Signup)
 

This is SPARTAAAA!

Re: Perpetuality - The 60 Player MegaGame (Signup)
 

As long as he doesn't "facilitate" on my lawn... damn kids.

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Time for desperate measures, huh?

A few points of interest:
1. Any remote spells are propably going to hurt your sieging army, not my meneads.
2. I coudn't care less if you kill them all really. I get several hundred new ones each turn which is enough for chaff, they can't really kill anything and i have to feed them.
3. By your definition, i'm allied with all my neighbours, including LA Ermor and LA Atlantis. Except you of course, because of your "negotiation tactics".
4. At this point of game my pretender is not much more than a researcher, unfortunately. Still, she did her job quite well so far.
5. Menead is the only EA Pangea's unit without recuperation.

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I need to bow out due to law school obligations. I'll need a sub for the next turn.

Xietor,

Would you mind not attacking this turn to give the new sub a chance to figure out what is going on?

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K,

You have been as good a foe as I have fought. So of course i will do you that courtesy-with 1 exception. I will pm you in detail about the exception and will take your word that you will not use the knowledge against me.

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What is a "sudden orchestrated ganging"?

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Dr. P said:
What is a "sudden orchestrated ganging"?

That is what the LA Atlantis Alliance attempted to do to me-unsuccessfully. It is what they did do successfully to Tir Nog. For more clarification, do a séance and speak with the departed spirit of Tir Nog's pretender.

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Aw, come on, we can come up with a better name for them than that. Axis of Naughty...League of Extraordinary Bedwetters...who all is part of it? What do you name yourself?

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"What do you name yourself?"

300 Spartans

"Who all is a part of it?"

I can only speak of the western continent, but when the attempted gang bang started:

LA Atlantis
MA Oceania
EA Lanka
LA Man

But the war took its toll on LA Man, and his armies are now loyal only to himself.

EA Lanka is getting a sub-whether the sub will want to remain in bed with LA Atlantis-time will tell. Personally, if i was the sub, my 1st official act would be to renounce any prior ties and start my diplomacy anew.

I am sure MA Man and perhaps EA Oceania are also aligned with LA Atlantis. But as they are far from my lands, their involvement with LA Atlantis concerns me little.

LA Ermor, by his own admission, is working with the LA Atlantis Alliance, but for the limited purpose of fighting LA Rlyeh.

So that is the big picture, as seen by the eyes of the Western Lizards. /waves at his cousins on the eastern shores and wishes them luck!

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*snort* I was more looking for a suitable moniker for the group that allegedly tried to have their way with you. Who's part of this Coalition of the Gangings? This Federation of Fishes? You need a proper name!

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Ah, well, I certainly can't guarantee that no-one else will attack MA Agartha.

In fact, I can basically guarantee that other people *will* attack MA Agartha - in the aforementioned plotting, I was the one advocating delay http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

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I think when ma agartha is attacked, that will fill in whatever doubts any interested in who is in the alliance on the eastern realm may have.

My cousins EA and LA Ctis are always loved because they are, after all, Lizards. So even if my cousins are part of the Evil Empire, should we ever meet, well cold blood is thicker than Water! I will fully expect a savage betrayal of your former allies and a new alliance of Lizards!

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I admit I've been the one sleeping in the Great Diplomacy Game, as the ones I've counted among friends have been already killed by my current neighbours. But that's only fitting for a twilight race, the last ones to shut down the lights.

But I'm hard pressed to believe that the delay MA Man was advocating was for any other reason than his losses in his war against EA C'tis. Perhaps you were afraid your "friends" would take a too large a slice off the pie if you hadn't had the time to mass forces at my border? After all, should they have gained too much ground it would've made it harder for you to crush them in turn.

And Xietor, regarding EA C'tis you're too late. Your lizard brethen have been crushed already by Man.

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/cry Lizard tears for my cousin.

Beware Lizard killers, the tails of the Lizards are long, and our teeth sharp!

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I resent the implication that I turn on - and crush - my allies. I never allied with EA C'tis, there was an arrangement of temporary convenience only. I don't see how he could've construed "I have no plans to invade you at this time" in any other way.

LA C'tis is a permanent ally. Totally different deal.

Anyway, I was advocating delay because I wanted to get the diplomatic situation straightened out; a quandry from which I am now clearly resolved http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. If I'd been certain that we were attacking you I would've said so.

Troops are like toilet paper - I expect to consume them in great scads but it's hardly a concern to a celestial being such as myself.

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"LA C'tis is a permanent ally. Totally different deal."

Cold Blood is thicker than the ink of your treaties. In the unlikely event MA Ctis ever lands on the Eastern Shores, we know we can rely on our cousins to fight at our side!

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I maintain that we did have a NAP, but since that was a long time ago and the in-game message system was used, I chose not to pursue the argument any further. We will just have to agree to disagree on this issue. You are correct that we never had an alliance though.

You lost more than just troops. You lost quit a few mages (some holding a large amount of gems) to the two earthquakes in the swamp, and your god was dispatched easily enough by serpent dancers.

Just like they did our's? (not that EA C'tis asked them to)

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We let Man free your people from a false god. All the scaled folks are welcome in our lands. We offer a hot tempered country, with desert and swamp resorts.

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All that the people of Midgard had predicted has come true!

Jazzepi, (ghost of Midgard)

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Velusion, can you update the player list to put me as the owner of LA Jomon? fate quit some time ago and had me put in as a sub and he has received quite a few messages meant for me.

Thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

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Sure...

Also anyone else who is a perm sub please let me know.

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EA Lanka is now under new leadership.

Anyone with NAP's/Alliances, agreements, PM or in game message me. I will give them due consideration and let you know if I will continue with them.

The new leadership bears no ill will to any other nation or god. Everyone has a clean slate as far as I am concerned.

In the next few turns or so EA Lanka will seek to just defend my own lands and not make any hostile actions vs anyone else.

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There has been some discussion on subbing and how subs are found. I wanted to clear the air - and this applys to all the games I host.

1) I won't start looking for a sub for players unless they have at least staled once.
2) I post a thread in the MP forums asking for volunteers if the leaving player hasn't already. IF the previous owners ever wanted to exclude people from taking over their position I would honor it.
3) Other players who have a vested interest are free to bump the thread (as I might do) but only the original player can exclude people from taking over their empire.
4) If I deem a nation to be in a really bad shape I'll request that it be put on AI, rather than ask for a sub. The orginal owner is still free to find a real sub if he wishes.
5) Players still in the game may NOT sub for another nation.

My goal (and it can be hard) is just to find a warm body to take over the nation. I don't advertise or notify people before I put up the "sub needed" thread and I always go with first come first serve.

I would HOPE that the player taking over the nation will at least honor or give notice on NAPs. However, as the player could always lie, I won't bother trying to force this requirement.

I hope that this clears things up. I'm not always aware of the politics/disagreements that happened before/during the game... I just try to put a body with a nation... nothing more.

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Looks like I'll be looking for a permanent sub for LA Atlantis. *le sigh*

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I will post on both of my mp game threads and say the LA Atlantis spot is now open as well. I doubt a sub will be hard to find, he had a decent position.

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Hmmm, whats going on? Seems like the western power block just took its ball and went home...

Oh well, I'd rather stomp on Bob anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

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K did have a legitimate reason for leaving the game. real life is greater than a game-however fun. And he was a great adversary.

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To be fair, Frank *did* just start driving ambulances again. I might need a sub myself if this drags into October, as I've got a fair amount of work to do.

This puts me in a bit of a lurch, as I may get a replacement for Frank who won't pay me back the several hundred gems he still owes me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif.

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Velusion:

I think with all the changes, perhaps we could take an extra 24 hours? personally I am fine. In fact my turn is already in.

But the face of the Western continent just changed significantly, and this seems to be an appropriate time for a small pause.

Just my 2 cents.

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There have not been any pauses in the past when large nations stale, nor will there be one now.

Which sucks for me because LA Atlantis was helping me against LA R'lyeh. But that's how the cookie crumbles.

The game will advance, inexorably, towards it's bitter end. Mistakes, exceptions and delays be damned!

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Sorry, I did not mean to effect the game so much by subbing for Lanka. I will sub for Lanka if you want me too but if it would be better to keep LA Atlantis, then I will withdraw. I don't want to spoil/upset a major power block within the game.

Really, I am not going to do anything that has a negative effect on La Atlantis other than stop the destructive war with Ctis, which is not benefiting Lanka as for as I can tell.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

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Lanka does not even border LA Atlantis. And in fact is nowhere close to LA Atlantis. I am quite sure LA Atlantis' departure has nothing to you with you playing Lanka.

I doubt K himself would say the war between us has been profitable for him. There have been horrific losses on both sides, and zero progress made either way in terms of land gained/lost.

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I'm always glad to have a dedicated sub fill in for a departing player.

Any sub will always change the status quo that can't be helped. People just have to adjust... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

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I'd certainly be happier. In many ways I prefer untrustworthy opponents, I've played enough diplomacy to greatly respect dishonesty, but the whole situation is complicated at this point.

Lanka is certainly in a strong enough position to stale for a turn - or Meglobob could take a turn anyway, since he's just going to tread water for a turn it shouldn't make any difference. I'll see if I can get in touch with K IRL.

However, Frank might just be using this as an excuse to bow out over work, too - I know he's been pretty stretched and might just have been staying in to honor the many, many agreements he's had. With Frank out of the picture it makes much less of a difference (to me at least) whether or not I can cut deals with Lanka.

His insistence that he won't tolerate subs from within game - while reasonable in principle - falls apart because there simply *isn't* anyone else here to sub.

I do think that with the combination of fewer people, more complex turns (visions of void spectres are dancing in my head) and summer drawing to a close it wouldn't be unreasonable to switch to 72h turns for those of us tied to the school year - maybe not now, but soon.

P.S. - DOOM!

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I've had a few people mention 72 hour turns. We'll go ahead move to them at turn 65 (7 turns).

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*shrug* I don't really know what all went on, but knowing Frank's history of poor sportsmanship this sudden bailing smells like his characteristic huff about something he doesn't like. Since he won't respond in the forum (because he left in a huff over something he didn't like) I'll just assume that's what it is. Not at all to disparage anyone else who needs to bow out....but there's a big difference in how jutetrea's been trying for over a week to find a sub - and playing in the mean time - and what I have to assume is a deliberate attempt to inconvenience as many people as possible by suddenly destabilizing one of the largest power blocks in this huge game.

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Ok then, I should be able to do Lankas turn by the deadline with an hour or two to spare. From then on 48 hrs is no problem to me.

The entire idea of me subbing is to fill a gap not to create one, so if Frank or anyone else of the alliance can find a alternative sub for Lanka within the next couple of turns, lets say 3 turns. I will step aside for there sub.

Frank has obviously put a lot of effort into the game and the alliance, so I would not want him to leave the game because of me subbing for Lanka. This would be very unfair and defeat the object of me subbing. So I hope he stays in the game or if he leaves it is for life/job reasons.

K has left Lanka in extremly good shape and a big thanks to him for providing a handy checklist of whats going on with the nation.

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"Sent to: Meglobob
There is no reason for you to withdraw.

While Lanka was a member of la atlantis alliance, there can be no expectation that subs also remain in an alliance with other people.

Actually the purpose of a sub is to play the race to the best of his ability as he sees fit. In other words, to play the race in a manner that best benefits that race-not someone else."

And here is my response to that. Now if you determine it is in Lanka's best interest to continue the war-that is fine by me. I told you that in my 1st message. Heck, does K even think that continuing the war with Ctis is in Lanka's best interest?

Even original players bail out on alliances at times-only one player can win. By his own admission, Dr. P likes dishonesty in diplomacy, so should his allies be surprised one day when the knife slides home?

Why should a sub be held to a higher standard than the original player?

I also strongly suspect LA Atlantis is quitting over something he does not like in game. But I think it sends the wrong signal to give in to his threat of taking his ball and going home. The fact is-he was never going to win this game anyway. I was not going to let him.

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Xietor, I'm going to have to disagree.

Personally, I wouldn't be willing to accept a sub who wouldn't honor my alliances and crush my enemies. If that were the option, I'd give all my stuff to an ally and go CPU.

In the obvious example of the war between you and C'tis, this means Lanka won't be paying Atlantis back for the extensive favors that Atlantis did for Lanka in the past. In a sense this is good, because I think people honor their agreements too scrupulously and that cooperation should be riskier. OTOH, I'd be pissed off if someone subbed for me and then screwed over my allies, as this is not something I'd do.

This is impossible to adjudicate except by the person-who-is-being-subbed-for; maybe Lanka was planning to betray LA Atlantis anyway, I certainly can't know for sure. But the sub should obey the diplomatic instructions of the subee, which obviously I haven't seen. It seems unlikely to me that Meglobob's stated intentions are in accord with what K would've allowed, but that's just speculation on my part. If K included no diplomatic info, that may have been what he had in mind.

Anyway, yes, Frank *is* in a funk, no question. He generally gets worse when he's driving an ambulance.

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I always give even my temporary subs rather loose ideas about what I want - whats the fun in playing a game where you are not allowed to play the way you want ?.

I think its obvious that a permanent sub needs to honor trade agreements (say if gems or money is owed in some way), and NAP as well - else than that he/she should be allowed to do whatever they please.

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Ok here is my 2 cents.

If the sub is a true sub and will only be playing for a short time then the sub should try to play just like the original player.

If the sub is taking over and the original player is not coming back then the sub becomes the NEW player and can do whatever he/she wants. The King/Queen is dead long live the new King/Queen.

Now the way in which LA Atlantis is quitting the game it makes it look like he is leaving in a Huff. Very child like. I dont know much about this guy but from what I have read here on the boards its not all good. Also the messages he sent me in game makes me think he would act this way. I will however try not to judge someone by what goes on here as this is not real life.

Re: Perpetuality -LA Atlantis
 

What Franktrollman should do, if he wants my respect(admittedly most people do not live their lives to achieve this noble goal), is to take a deep breath, and recognize that one of his friends had to leave the game for real life issues.

Also recognize that the legitimate sub, while not his ally, has stated he will play Lanka to the best of his ability, with
a clean slate. LA Atlantis can show his skill in both diplomacy and gameplay, by adapting to the change in circumstances, and continuing to play to win.

What is the net effect of Lanka ending his war with me to LA Atlantis? I am not going away even if the war continues.
Lanka did tie up my main armies, but i am still not going to leave my borders unprotected. So those large armies will remain just where they have been. Only a fool leaves a border unguarded.

Lanka still may be open to diplomacy from LA Atlantis. Who knows? It is your job to demonstrate your diplomatic skill.
Maybe you can convince him/bribe him to continue his war against me. That is up to you, and him.

But why should a reasonable player taking over a new race, unless he is LA atlantis sister or close friend, grind his own nation down to help some other nation prosper? That is the question LA Atlantis needs to address with Lanka.

All quiting the game in a "huff" so to speak does, is put you in a bad light. That is my 2 cents. Coming into the game i had never even heard of you. So I had a neutral opinion.
If you leave now, I will not lie, I would never allow you in any game I ran.

At the very least you should find a sub yourself. At best, you suck up the loss of an ally-just as we all may have to do-and move on. Did you think that because you had a premade alliance entering the game it was going to be given to you on a silver platter?

If so, you were mistaken. There are many excellent players in this game you have never faced before, and they are not going to make it easy for you. If you want to be the head that wears the crown-fine. Earn it!

Re: Perpetuality -LA Atlantis
 

I also think some people take this alliance thing way too serious. As dom3 is about to get your pretender to ascend into godhood, there is just no place for alliance victories. Sure you can make (temporary) NAPs with other players, and work together with others for your own benefit. But if you are creating an alliance with the target to win the game together, this is in my opinion almost cheating.

Re: Perpetuality -LA Atlantis
 

Wow, sounds like a lot of huffing going on. But I am at a loss when I try to locate Frank's huffy comments.

Could it just be that real life (computer/connection issues, crazy hours at work, or something more personal) has interfered with Frank's ability to get his turns in? If so, I doubt he would be too inclined to return to such a welcoming environment.

Moreover, real life interference can take many forms. If someone has a particularly stressful job (ambulance driver perhaps), it is possible to get into an emotional funk that makes it very difficult to care much about such trivialities as this (especially if a significant time commitment is involved).

I am not condoning this manner of leaving a game (if that is Frank's intent), but give the guy some slack. I don't see the need to smear his name over several pages, or ban him from future games.

As a player, I was very impressed with LA Atlantis' performance. Frank demonstrated exceptional skill and a high level of diplomacy (which I would find exhausting). At this point of the game, my money was on LA Atlantis for the win. If he was playing a two-bit part in this game (like myself), I doubt that anyone would care about the manner of his departure. The fact that the whole world reverberates with his leaving speaks volumes about his position.

Re: Perpetuality -LA Atlantis
 

"But I am at a loss when I try to locate Frank's huffy comments."

That is not surprising as he apparently does not post on the boards, but that does not mean he does not communicate with people.

And I did not say he made "huffy" comments. My precise intent is that if he is leaving the game because he was not allowed to hand pick another player's permanent sub, then that conduct-to me-is leaving in a huff.

Obviously if Lanka had wanted LA Atlantis to hand pick his sub, he would have assigned him that task-just like EH assigned me the task of finding his sub for him. Since Lanka did not assign LA Atlantis that task, imho, he needs to deal with it.

Re: Perpetuality -LA Atlantis
 

Frank just started a job as an Emergency Medical Tech(EMT). In case anyone isn't aware, the hours on that kind of job is like 36 hours on, 24 off, 36 on. Its pretty nuts, so I think this is less of a "he left in a huff" move on his part and more of a "no human being could get quality turns done on that kind of schedule."

On a personal note, good game everyone. My only regret is that I didn't cast Astral Corruption when I had the chance.

And I'd like to do a public shout-out to Xietor. Our war was bloody and brutal with horrific losses on both sides, as well as being surprisingly unprofitable. I definitely had to bring my A-game, and I still was never sure if it was going to be enough. For that I am grateful, as it pushed me to improve and expand my game.

So I tip my demonic monkey horns to you.

Re: Perpetuality -LA Atlantis
 

There's a lot of additional IRL stuff going on here that makes this a complicated situation. Meglobob has said he's okay with a different sub - but I'll still take K's input on that question before locating one.

That said, if Xietor were effectively eliminated and playing only to destroy Frank, that would be fine. Since Xietor *isn't* eliminated, is at about mid-quantile, and is still playing only for a vendetta, and doesn't know the extent of the favors that Atlantis did for Lanka earlier in the game (which are wasted if meglobob takes over), I it might be wise to consider carefully before criticizing people for their sportsmanship.

Re: Perpetuality -LA Atlantis
 

Thank you K for everything.

It appears Frank is in fact leaving the game for real life issues-so I do owe him an apology for the implication that he was leaving in a "huff." But if he is in fact leaving, there is no reason whatsoever Dr. P should be finding a sub for lanka.

One has already been found, and he apparently realizes what K has confirmed-the war had been bloody and neither side profited. So Dr. P wants to find a sub for Lanka who will not play Lanka to win, but promote Dr. P's agenda?

Am I the only one that has an issue with that?

*As an aside, yes i had a vendetta against Frank, and he knows why. Since he will not respond on the forums, I will not take any shots at him he cannot reply to.

But If a new player is playing LA Atlantis-i will put aside any issues I had with LA Atlantis. In other words-new player-clean slate. Just like with Lanka.

Re: Perpetuality -LA Atlantis
 

I am absolutely not interested in recruiting players who would be spoilers - either for me, or against anyone else.

If Frank is indeed leaving - I'm trying to talk him out of it - then, as I said, Meglobob can have the position, makes little difference to me. At that point I'm (with Frank's permission) recruiting a sub for *him*, and I would like to recruit someone who will pay me back the gems LA Atlantis owes me, which I hardly regard as someone who's going to throw the game my way, thank you.

Anyway I'm opposed to the whole "clean slate" thing. You're supposed to be at war with other positions - not with other *players*.

Re: Perpetuality -LA Atlantis
 

The point is Dr. P you have no more right to recruit a sub for lanka than me(and i have none). In fact, since I am the one who has been at war with him for gawd knows how long, no one other than K knows Lanka's position better than me.

And you in no way have any right to recruit someone for lanka that has any predisposition to your position. Sorry. I do not care if you loaned him 10,000 gold etc.

I will agree that K has the right to select his own sub. No one disputes that. What I am unclear on is this, did K ask Velusion to find a sub for him(rather than dr p or someone else?). If he asked velusion, then Velusion did the job.

If velusion just saw that lanka staled 1 turn, and on his own went out and got a sub, then i see your point. But if he was asked by the player to get a sub for him-and did so-what right do you have to find a different one? And what issues do you have with the one that signed up to play Lanka?

That is the risk inherent in loaning people gems etc. And i will say no matter how many "favors" Atlantis did for lanka,
they in no way compensated lanka for all the losses he incurred in our war.