Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What are you talking about now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I should have said: What are you talking about now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif
and quoted him before I questioned him, eh?
My interpretation of JLS's above words are:
"Math, what's math. who cares. I like things the way they are, and so do my friends and probably their doggie too."


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The way I understand it, JLS wanted to "introduce a way that would not render small hull sizes to become obsolete when the next Hull is researched".

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As you said yourself it is a fine balance that AIC acheived [snip]

Maybe you missed the part where JLS explained this and the benifits that the small Hull Classes have to offer thru out our AIC games.

I think you stated your point madkillercat and I am also not in agreement with you {I like the AIC Hull manuver Ratings}.
[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I "saw" JLS's explanation. As I mentioned, I consider hull specific changes to be "pre-determined" efficiencies. In short, my already stated opinion is such hull "balancing" is a work-around for weak AI. or pre-determined efficiencies is work-around for de facto weak AI. I could already see my impending loss in the polls regarding this opinion. I did not/do not "expect" anyone to support my view on the AI. My goal with that Last post was to clarify since JLS SEEMED to misinterpret what I said:

pre-determined efficiencies <= bad AI

as

no-obsolete-small-hulls => pre-determined efficiencies <= bad AI
no-obsolete-small-hulls <=> bad AI
no-obsolete-small-hulls <=> bad AIC
no-obsolete-small-hulls <=> bad AIC, it sucks, its sooo bad

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I did not see that coming. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

The AI is strong. The AI is god. SE4 is greatness. There is nothing wrong with MY game.
Hell, SE5 isn't even needed. Just slap Star Fury graphics onto SE4, and us fanatics, no fans will have 3D greatness too.


Anyway, don't change the hulls if you don't want. I just thought it strange to have such inconsistancy when almost everything looked like consistant within the AIC universe rules. I also would have thought it strange if the Millenium Falcon appeared in the middle of a Federation battle with the Dominion. But then, flexibility and understanding do make the world go 'round--or something.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Please, lets us not all let this get out of hand with missed or partial quotes and rhetoric’s.

MDC - I do desire your input: Do you have any positive advise to share with regards to the neglected se4 Cruiser to become more conducive?


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[ July 27, 2004, 17:15: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thank you madkillercat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I have failed to explain fully the intent to add a little individual diversity to some AIC Hulls and to keep obsolesce to a minimum - please except my apologies.

[ July 27, 2004, 17:17: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If simulator results don't push it too far ahead of smaller OR larger hulls. Also, by raising Destroyer Off+ by 5% you start a trend where every other hull size has better Off+ than the previous hull size--like a zig-zag line.

Making the CA a better contributor is not so simple as your design objectives include hull-non-obselesence. Obtainity parity between the LC - BC range while maintaining the upper and lower ranges will be difficult. Some factors to keep in mind:

Hull Off+ and hull Def+ follow a consistant trend from the DD through heavy baseship range. To simplify balance testing, hold one constant, and only twek the other.
e.g. holding Def+ constant. With each hull size, the increase is KT becomes more significant. So too high Off+ gives a significant margin of superiority to heavier hulls, and can make smaller one obsolete. Coupled with smaller mounts/less Off-, a large hull with many small mount but accurate weapons becomes unbalancing.

Movement is also dangerous due to KT increases between classes. Your larger hulls are generally becoming even larger and speeding them up noticably will improve those large hulls too much. Likewise, minimal changes do little good since max movement is 9+/-1.

Hull KT shifting of CL - BC is also difficult since there is little shifting possible due to hulls above and below that range. Any changes to hull KT will require changes to Off/Def and movement. Complexity make KT changes prohibitive without extensive testing.

One approach is to come up with a rationale for ships in that size range. There already is one for the scout through frigate hulls. The escort being hard to hit, and the frigate being fast. Come up with some role for the hull that is consistant within the world you have created.
e.g. fast BC's sacrifice some hull intregity/ECM+ to be able to bring in heavy weapons.
e.g. CA's "armored" by good ECM/Def+ protect transport throughfares from hit-and-run enemy attacks.
I don't know how you are playing your campaigns so you'll come up with better rationales than I can.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Obstacle? I don't care whether or not it is changed--SE4 is just a game and AIC just a mod. You have a rationale for for the change, sounds fine to me. We just differ in WHY we think such changes were made.

Timeline:

I mentioned a bulge.
You said hull flexibility, etc.
I said no, it's weak AI.
You said hull flexibility, etc.
You also said...I'm not sure what you said about the void and math not be real.
I said, weak AI.
You said (above) let's change the subject.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif How evasive for someone who recently related "filling a void" to a game/mod.

Re: CA hull, see below. You have your work cut out for you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I did realize your intent. I just view what you did more as a way to cover for the AI than to keep obsolesce to a minimum. You may not have intended or thought of "patching" the AI, but it is one of the things those tweaks seem to achieve.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fair enough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How is the AI Campaign with the Fyrons FQM style game coming along, FQM is a lot of fun.


Did you place that Sphere World?

[ July 27, 2004, 19:09: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

I have always posted FQM is a great addon to AIC and is perfect for the players that like astro mining
I will stick with ring worlds.
I followed Geos post. To build two BSY with a yard ship, then have the SYS help one BSY with the ring world components and the other BSY start building the ring world generator and timed for everything to be done at the same time.

Some of the LAN games are finished in our group. I am sure ther are a few players that would want to start a new
COLONIZE OWN PLANET ONLY AIC-FQM game.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

No more complaints about FQM Asteroids from me, playing a {Colonize own type only) AIC and Fyrons FQM style game is like PLAYING A WHOLE NEW GAME ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

I am at odds with the Sallega AI Player, so I doupt I will have a Sphere world soon.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Rock AI Players can build up fast in a Colonize Home Planet Type only games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

You can remove some unwanted AI race's to your: AIC\Pictures\Races removed from play -
(XiChung for example) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

- - -
How are the GAS AI Players ship counts?

[ August 01, 2004, 00:31: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

With FINITE and most style se4 game starts: The AI Players in AIC can handle almost anything. You can play against the AI with a Computer Bonus of NONE and the AI will give you a reasonale challenge and not fall apart. At a starting computer player bonus of medium you will have to be at your best game.

JLS, can you log into the new Shrapnel Forum?
Nod your head side-to-side if still no http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

You might want to send a PM to Richard... he might not see your message here.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

I can only log in from home.
I am unsure why I can not log in from work?
Thanks Fyron http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I Emailed Richard and I will send a follow up PM http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

What I see there are some great changes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Does your work place have a repressive firewall running? The difference in how logins are stored with this forum software and the old may be the culprit...

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Hmm, the website for this mod no longer works. I guess it's not being supported any more. I miss it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

AI Campaign can still be downloaded from SE.net:

*link*

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Oh, no! I disappear from the forum for several months, and I come back to find that AIC has dropped into the void behind my dresser.

JLS, say it ain't so! I miss AIC...

Is it to ever return?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Hi, I also disappeared working on a couple of other mods with a few other games.

CIV III (TAM) and Hearts of Iron (CORE)

I should have something for AI Campaign in before the X-Mas break http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

They always come back. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Welcome back JLS! (I have been playing Civ III myself of late... Not the best way I can think to spend time before exams, but... *Shrugs* Oh, am I digressing again?)

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Thanks Alneyan. This excursion was far too long. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

I agree. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon04.gif[/img]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

What is the latest version of AIC? There is any other mod with the same kind of logistics but without the proportions-like population model? If i change the mod so the population transport is handled in the same way than in the stock game the AI would broke?

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

The latest version should be 4.1, I believe; I haven't heard of any major upgrade since 4.1 at any rate.

You cannot really remove the Proportions population model, though I guess you could make population meaningless and make it so the AI no longer builds starliners. However, there is an option that allows you to build a facility increasing population by one million every turn in a given system. This makes starliners less important, and you can actually do without starliners altogether.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

i should have explained better: i still want to use starliners, but i want that starliner be able to transport more pop per ship than what is currently in the mod (like, 10 times more), so i will still use starliners but they wil not be too excessive in numbers... i believe i know what i can change in the mod to allow it, but my doubt is if this would broke the AI as i don´t know how the Ai handles population and starliners...

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

I gather the AI would buid too many starliners in this case, perhaps hurting itself in the process... but then I only know how the AI is scripted, not how to script it.

Perhaps you could make this a "human-player" only change? After all, if your Starliners carry ten times more population as standard Starliners, but cost ten times as much, it should be nearly the same.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

4.191 is the most recent version. but the download page is down.

the population increase module has been a racial trait setting AFAIR.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

maybe if i go the AI files and change all callings for starliners to a tenth of the number...

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Reply JLS:
Makinus the latest version of AIC may be found at Space Empires.NET. However, between all else I have on my plate I have been working an upgrade.

The AI with AIC - handles the Population for its Colonies far better then the Stock se4 AI.

If you wish to play without Star Liner logistic, Please play with starting Trait option OS* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Thank you for your post.
John

REFERENCE RACIAL TRAITS :

Name := *HP*
Description := Human players are *REQURIED* to take this for Human Tech Area. This choice alone; delivers a moderate game. Human Player may mix options below.

Name := SO*
Description := With *HP* above, this option will result in a more robust game that requires LESS Micro Management and logistics. Your game will be less dependent on Star Liners with this option.

Name := MP*
Description := Multiplayer - LAN, PBW and PBEM games must have above Option *HP*. -&gt;NOTE: Please ask HOST to confirm your MP Handicapping levels and all start settings.

Name := O1
Description := With *HP* above, an advantage for AIC Players that would like an all-around more productive Home World and Colonies.

Name := O2
Description := With *HP* above, presents an Excellent Advantage: For a higher Proportions of Resources (not recommended for Finite Games). -&gt;NOTE: Please be sure to take at least the above *HP* Trait --- (ABOVE) ---
"~"

==================
Poster: Makinus

"What is the latest version of AIC? There is any other mod with the same kind of logistics but without the proportions-like population model? If i change the mod so the population transport is handled in the same way than in the stock game the AI would broke?"

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

The "Proportion population model" is only a basic DATA setting for mass equals 1000; Hence, there will be a proprtional build up of population for all players to include the AI and from this starting point we can MOD other Modifiers - via Trait, Facility etc.

As Alneyan expressed that there is a setting for AIC that will allow basic Auto pop Transports for you if you wish to avoid excessive logistician transport.
AIC optional OS* start setting will allow for a more Robust game - but perhaps a little less strategic type game.

If you alter the MASS=1000 you will corrupt the AIC Mod, this is why we programmed the OS* starting option to lessen se4 redundant Transport management http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Reference
GAME SETTINGS DATA FILE:


================================================== =========
*BEGIN*
================================================== =========
Population Mass := 1000

================================================== =========

"""""""""""""""
Poster: Alneyan

The latest version should be 4.1, I believe; I haven't heard of any major upgrade since 4.1 at any rate.

You cannot really remove the Proportions population model, though I guess you could make population meaningless and make it so the AI no longer builds starliners. However, there is an option that allows you to build a facility increasing population by one million every turn in a given system. This makes starliners less important, and you can actually do without starliners altogether.

Re: AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent
 

Changing any AI Population Transport Call - Will do very little to help or hurt the AIC AI; Moreover, a greater number of AI transports will allow more possibilities for Human Player Ship Capture http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif - Less however, will lesson this Human Player tactic and do almost NOTHING to help or hurt the AIC AI Player. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
= = =
If you wish to move {even more} population - Please, build more or Larger AIC Star liners and start the game with the (OS* Game option enabled) provided for you, located in that individual players trait menu.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif
John

"""""""""""""""
Poster: Makinus

maybe if i go the AI files and change all callings for starliners to a tenth of the number...


Poster: Makinus

i should have explained better: i still want to use starliners, but i want that starliner be able to transport more pop per ship than what is currently in the mod (like, 10 times more), so i will still use starliners but they wil not be too excessive in numbers... i believe i know what i can change in the mod to allow it, but my doubt is if this would broke the AI as i don´t know how the Ai handles population and starliners...