Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah, but you are missing my point. Obviously, I cannot speak for the point of view of the other debators in this thread, but from my point of view it is not about modifying it to be something that is of immense use and very valuable in SP or MP - that would be screwing around with the balance in a major way - it is about changing conscription to be something that is both a) visible, b) of some (though minimal) usefullness, and c) in line with what a feature like "conscription" actually suggests.

The problem with the current implementation is that if fails all three. You don't notice it is going on, you gain nothing from it really, and the effects do not seem to fit with conscription in the first place. As such, it is a feature better done entirely without - or changed to something that fulfills at least one or two of the points.

[Off topic, apart from the reasons you list, there is another reason to use a moderate 20-30 level of PD in SP in strategic provinces. PD can be extremely useful in SP as meatshields when backed up by archers/mages/priests defending armies in hotspots, as you lose nothing whatsoever if all the meatshields die in the defense so long as you hold the province. It cuts down on infantry replacement cost. Obviously of most importance if the AI is intent on overrunning you and has a substantial manpower advantage. This is the opposite of using PD to funnel the AI, really, as it is used where you expect the AI to attack rather than use it to turn it away.]

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Another excellent suggestion that I wholeheartedly support. You could even throw in a bonus low-level commander at 10 and 20, for something that would *feel* substantially different.

[ February 15, 2004, 23:23: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, that is exactly what it's used for. But it's hardly cost effective to buy more than say 10ish PD in order to do so (As a spot defense). It's more often easier to let the province fall and use your gold on other more effective things than to push alot of gold into the province.

There are numerous circumstances where PD can be of use, but these are mainly 'surprise' instances where they are not counting on an additional 10-20 fodder there to eat up lances/mindbLasts, etc.

The current way of conscription or suggested method of conscription does not allow that, since it's a slow and steady increase. Though this may just be my playstyle. I consider PD a waste on nations that must get 25+ in order for it to have a real impact.

As I said, the ability is a minor one, and if it was adjusted to whatever people feel appropriate, it would not affect the other 2 themes of TC, which are just as lacking as the base, because of the inherent weaknesses that TC has.

[ February 15, 2004, 23:30: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would tend to disagree - SP only - as it is quite often possible to set up a situation, by exploting AI weakness, where the AI will repeatedly hammer away at one province turn after turn, which can be very useful when you are fighting multi-front wars and you need to hold one front with relatively few real troops while prosecuting wars elsewhere. Rather than buying a large number of good real troops, which will need replacements on a regular basis and possibly cost a significant maintenance, the one-time expense of heavy PD backed up by mages and priests is, to my mind, preferable.

But then again, I am not sure we actually disagree on this one. It is possible that I just have an atavistic dislike to giving the AI even a remote chance of rampaging around in my backyard, if I can prevent it fairly easily.

MP - of course - must be another world entirely, which even I can see with my negligible MP experience. In MP investing in 10 PD is most likely a good way of wasting 55d for most any nation unless you are in overwhelming danger of being swarmed by lowlevel summoning spells.

[ February 15, 2004, 23:40: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I utilize Fortresses the same was as I imagine you use your PD. Mostly since they have multiple uses and will blunt a AI invasion even if they have forces that would defeat any amount of PD (SC's, etc). So I would regulate it to playstyle, which is a perfectly good excuse http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Though as I stated before, fixing or making Conscription viable/an asset, would still not fix the corrisponding themes that go with it. I tend to think of them as a whole, at least with TC, since I prefer the two themes both for their flavor/RP enjoyment and the variety they provide. So that is just a me thing.

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

I think Peter's well-written argument still holds true though. It's not a suggestion to "fix" Tien Chi, but to fix conscription. That is, it should be fairly minor but noticable and worth something, and make sense. Currently, a low chance over a long time of going from zero to 1-3 PD, up to an eventual max of about PD 6, is extremely weak, hard to even notice, and worth very little. If it built up at a noticible rate up to about 10, and then slowly eventually might get up to 15-20, I'd say that would be about right.

Balancing the various themes of Tien Chi is a different matter altogether.

PvK

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well perhaps I just look at it a different way. If the Base and Themes of a race is determined to be sufficiently out of alignment enough to need a balance change, then it moves logically for me to look at the improvements that are common to all themes and improve them while retaining the original intention.

Since Conscription is only Order based and is only usable by the base nation, it's priority is low, though it's intention was to provide more thematic flavor. If Conscription is changed not to balance the nation (which it will be regardless, every nuance impacts it, even in the slightest degree) then it has to be looked at and possibly adjusted later if the commonality between the base and themes is changed to put it in better 'balance'.

I agree that something should be done to Conscription at some point and time, as it is just something that you don't consider when choosing your nation. And if Peter's suggestion is implemented, fantastic. But I would rather have the entire nation viewed for balance before Conscription and if the Developers feel it's needed, adjust it, then adjust Conscription to fit that vision of balance.

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My apologies if you felt I was "jumping on you". In reading your post, I thought you were suggesting the Ashikaga mod as a *replacement* for TC - and not just in your own games, either.

Glad we got that cleared up, and I'm glad you didn't mean what I thought you meant.

Looking forward to more discussion of conscription, balancing, and TC.

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What would be some of your suggestions for TC balance, Zen?

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks. I can readily see how it could be viewed as other than I intended. I would never propose, nor view kindly anyone else's proposal, that an integral part of a game, no matter who's game, just be scrapped. Not even some of the stuff in MOO3 ... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think we can have all the discussions we'd like, but that IW probably doesn't view TC as 'broken' and in need of fixing. I suspect that if they did, they'd've done something about it by now. So anyone who feels that a change is needed will just be told "that's what the mod tools are for".

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

A few suggestions at current I believe for Base TC are:

Give all their Commanders 2 Movement or modify the statistics to reflect being the slowest leaders in the game (no other commanders have mv 1)

Give the Celestial Master +1 Astral, either adjust the cost or change the paths to fit it in.

Adjust the gold and/or resource cost of the standard heavy troops of TC.

As of right now they have terrible long weapon units (Glavies and Lightly Armored Pikes).

I'd have to wait and see exactly what the effects of the new and improved HorseArcher orders of Fire and Attack, which will hopefully fix that particular aspect. It might have more of an impact on balance than I could say.

Change the Celestial Servant and Celstial Soldier's paths to cast to be able to be summoned without having to rely on Random picks.