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Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
Generally, when you think a cost is good and balanced increase it by x1.5 or x2 and you are probably better off. If you have given it rare abilities x3 is probably right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
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Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
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Regarding the highpriced items I agree. It would not be reasonable to give these highpower items for gold/resource only. So I think that lv 6 items should probably not be given at all. Otherwise are you satisfied with the price range? I mean it would be possible to add costs on a item by item base, but this is an attempt at a quick and dirty rule. if you are in favour of some kind of general rule/direction when adding magic items to units, then please give your input. |
Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
I'll summarise this, and repost the guide with the changes. For now, I am going to keep the guide in text, as it makes it easier to edit, append, etc. When it comes time, I will PDF it for Version 1.0.
I also plan to have a couple of running examples that can be used for each of these. As in "If we make the Steel Brigade units amphibians, this will add Xgold, Yresources...." All right, what about movement? I think strategic movement is !very! important. Getting your units where the need to go can make the difference between a stalled front and a major victory; or conversely, a staunch defence or a massacre on the homefront as your inner provinces get gutte. I am thinking: 1mv militia, hv infantry 2mv lt infantry, hv cavalry 3mv light cavalry 4mv elite light cavalry 5mv flying units For every 1mv above the regular for the unit in question, you add 5gp. E.g. The elite light cavalry units have 4mv, and cost 10gold/unit more (just for movement) than light infantry at 2mv. E.g. Heavy Infantry normally have 1mv, but elite HV Infantry might have 2mv and cost 5gp/unit more. |
Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
This is taking longer than I thought. I am trying to tidy it up, make it more legible, provide two running examples for how the various tables and formulae work, and in general make it an easy to use guide, instead of a chore that nobody will ever want to use. Sorry for the delay. I might have the new Version ready Thursday.
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Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
UNOFFICIAL MOD GUIDEBOOK V 1.00
UNB Table of Contents ================= +Introduction +General Considerations +Definitions +Unit Costs --Base Gold --Base Resources +Advanced Characteristics and Costs +Summary Addendum (Charts etc.) ================= Introduction ============ Following are Proposed Guidelines for Modding. This resource is compiled from the best of a thread of the same name on the official Dominions II community board. Best meaning either a large majority of people agreed it was the best, or I determined it on my own in my ego-ridden role as originator, editor, and major contributor. Please let me know if you disagree with any part of it. Convince me, and I will change it! This was started because the official guidelines were sparse. These are not meant to be authoritative. These are guidelines only. I am going to skip acknowledgements other than in general--specific attributions would be too many and varied. Let me know if I miss you, misspell you, or if you don't want to be associated with this project. Thanks go to the following for their wit and knowledge: Teraswaerto Peter Ebbesen Arryn Graeme Dice Bossemanden Zen Wauthan Saber Cherry Kristoffer O General Considerations ====================== While these guidelines can be useful, cost is also affected by thematic considerations and overall balance for the nation being modded. These guidelines are pretty accurate, but the Modder should feel free to increase or decrease a unit's cost by 10% for thematic reasons (e.g. if a nation specialises in elite light cavalry, you could design what you think of as elite light cavalry then make it 10% cheaper to make them more numerous, or to reflect the fact that the nation is designed so that they are easier to produce thus more numerous). Multiplayer games need play-balanced nations, but if you are designing for singleplayer only, forget the rules! Remember that each of the nations is approximately equal but different. E.g. some have more powerful heroes than others; some have cavalry while others don't; some specialise in hordes of cheap units (Ermor) while others depend on less numerous powerful units (Jotunheim). Design your nation thematically--quirks are welcome by players! A small change can really add up. E.g. taking Ulm and making the units just 10% cheaper makes Ulm much much more powerful over the course of a 100+ turn game. Generally, when you think a cost is good and balanced increase it by x1.5 or x2 and you are probably better off. If you have given it rare abilities x3 is probably right. In general, stay away from adding magic items to a unit. It upsets the balance of the game too much, even when it is thematic. If you must do it, use the weakest items--and make it integral to the nation. A good example of a nation that has made weak magic items integral is Ulm with its Black Steel armor, shields, etc. Even a weak item can help make a nation exceptionally strong. Be careful not to overbalance your units/nations. Definitions =========== Two separate things: Gold, Resources. -Gold determines how good the meat is. -Resources determines how good the equipment is. Four types of units: Soldiers, Monsters, Commanders, Mages. -Soldiers are members of the Nation's race; e.g. humans, lizardmen, etc. -Monsters are greater than the acceptable norms of the Nation's race. E.g. vampires are stronger than humanly possible, and steal life. -Commanders are charismatic units, capable of leading. -Mages command the powers of magic; wizards, shaman, witches, warlocks, etc.. For discussion purposes I will use Humans as the example National race, and Light Infantry as the base unit for comparison. Referential statistics follow. Lt Inf Militia HV Inf hp---10------8------10 st---10------8------10 att--10------8------10 def--12------8------12 mor--10------8------10 mr---10------8------10 pre--10-----10------10 arm--09------8------13 dge--03-----03------06 gold-10-----07------10 res--10-----07------16 ------ Militia stats run 20% less on the skill side, except precision. They are cost 30% less gold. Their armor provides ~10% less protection, and their weapon is the same for dge and both have the useful repel ability. They do not have javelins. They cost 30% less resources (metal, leather, production time and skill). -2hp -2st -2att -2def -2mor -2mr = -3gold -1prot -javelin = -3res This doesn't Heavy Infantry stats are the same on the skill side, and they cost the same gold-wise. Resource-wise, HI have 35% better armor, and much better weapons, but no repel and no javelins. Resource cost is 60% higher. +4 pnts armor +3 pnts weapon -javelin = +6res. That seems to make sense. A javelin is worth 1res. 1pnt armor is 1res. 1pt wep dge is 1res. Conclusion is that we have light, normal, and heavy units. Light units cost disproportionately less. Normal units cost normal amounts. Heavy units cost disproportionately more. So far we have: Light------militia normal-----lt infantry, hv infantry heavy------none yet, let's examine one Black Knight hp------15 st------13 att-----12 def-----09 mor-----15 mr------09 pre-----10 arm-----24 dge-----20/8/6 gold----60 res-----70 +5hp +3st +2att -1def +5mor -1mr = +50 gold +14arm +11dge +lance = +60res GOLD ==== Ok, here's the theory for unit stat cost in gold. Unit stats include: hp, st, att, def, mor, mr, pre. ================================== 7-9 pnts skill = 0.5X cost (drones, peasants, conscripted, slaves) 10-12 pnts skill = 1X cost (normal range of average to elite) 13-15 pnts skill = 1.5X cost (elite to amazing) 16-19 pnts skill = 2X cost (supermen, ubermenchen, genetic prodigies, monsters) 20-29 pnts skill = 4X cost (powerful monsters) 30-40 pnts skill = 6X cost (super powerful monsters) 41+ = 8X cost (unique critters) ================================== E.g. new unit Elite Heavy Infantry. All stats the same except ST 12 and ATT 12 would cost 10 +2 +2 = 14gold. E.g. New Unit Super Elite Heavy Infantry. St 15, Att 15, HP 15; 10 + 5X1.5 +5X1.5 +5X1.5 = 33gold. Resources behave similarly to gold, but on a different metric. Here's the theory for unit resource cost: ==================== 0-8 light X0.75 9-11 average X1.00 12-20 heavy X1.50 21-29 super X2.00 30-40 amazing X3.00 ==================== E.g. Black Knights: 10res base +(24-10)armX2 +(21-10)dgeX2 +lance = 70res 10res base +28+22+X=70res A Lance seems to be worth 10res. Which makes sense for the damage it does; although it is listed as 3res in the excellent Items Guide. New Unit Example--The fabled Steel Battalion. The iron pillar that holds up the Bedrock of the new nation of Conans. An incredibly elite Super Heavy Infantry, full of weight lifting, 7 foot tall, supermen who push the envelope of humanity. Here are this proud group's stats: hp 18 st 18 att 18 def 18 mor 18 mr 18 pre 10 arm 26 dge 20 This looks like standard stats for the people who used to bring pre-rolled characters and try to get into my DnD games. Anyways, let's add Conan's new unit here up and estimate the unit cost according to the chart's guidelines. 10gold +8stX2 +8hpX2 +8attX2 +8defX2 +8morX2 +8mrX2 = 106gold 10res +16armorX2 +17dgeX2 = 76res That sounds about right. Remember, though, these are guidelines. If it fits in thematically that the unit should cost more or less, a 10% difference is very acceptable. This does not count in special powers like repel, lance, regenerate, ethereal, magic dge, poison dge, fire aura, fear, awe, etc. These follow. Fear Costs 1-4 6gold/pnt 5-9 9gold/pnt 10-14 12gold/pnt 15-19 15gold/pnt E.g. If we give the fabled Steel Battalion listed above a Fear aura of 5, we would add 4X6+1X9=33gold Bringing the SB total to 139gold/76res. Advanced Characteristics and Costs ================================== There are a multitude of talents and characteristics that add to either resources or gold cost for a unit. These are dealt with in detail in the Summary Addendum following. Here's the basic rationale: ethereal units are special, they know it, so they charge more for their service. If the ethereality is a built-in talent, it is not one that resources can create; therefore, it is a gold trait. Now, if you were outfitting a unit with Robes of Darkness, then it would be a resource hog, requiring magical gems, wizard skills and time, and all kinds of threads, weaving, cloth, thimbles, etc.--and you would charge gold and resources for it. A good example would be: new unit, rhino/man hybrid heavy infantry, has thick skin like full leather armor, giving him natural protection of 7. This is a gold cost. Rhino-Infantry also has an enchanted sword, which is a magical weapon (air level X, costing Y gems). The sword would cost gold and resources. The exact amount can be determined by the simple formula in the Summary Addendum. SUMMARY ADDENDUM ====================== ====================== Lt Inf Militia HV Inf Black Knight Steel Battalion hp---10------8------10------15------18 st---10------8------10------13------18 att--10------8------10------12------18 def--12------8------12------09------18 mor--10------8------10------15------18 mr---10------8------10------09------18 pre--10-----10------10------10------10 arm--09------8------13------24------26 dge--03-----03------06------20/8/6--20 gold-10-----07------10------60-----106 res--10-----07------16------70------76 GOLD ================================== 7-9 pnts skill = 0.5X cost (drones, peasants, conscripted, slaves) 10-12 pnts skill = 1X cost (normal range of average to elite human) 13-15 pnts skill = 1.5X cost (elite to amazing human, monsters) 16-19 pnts skill = 2X cost (supermen, ubermenchen, genetic prodigies, powerful monsters) 20-29 pnts skill = 4X cost (very powerful monsters) 30-40 pnts skill = 6X cost (super powerful monsters) 41+ = 8X cost (unique critters) ================================== Steel Battalion Example: 10gold +8stX2 +8hpX2 +8attX2 +8defX2 +8morX2 +8mrX2 = 106gold ReSOURCES ====================== 0-8 light X0.75 9-11 average X1.00 12-20 heavy X1.50 21-29 super X2.00 30-40 amazing X3.00 41+ insane X5.00 ====================== Steel Battalion Example: 10res +16armorX2 +17dgeX2 = 76res Fear Costs ====================== 1-4 6gold/pnt (undead lord, minor demon, necromancer) 5-9 9gold/pnt (undead king, med demon, high level necromancer) 10-14 12gold/pnt (major demon, psionic thing from beyond) 15-19 15gold/pnt (demon nobility, major gibbering horror from beyond) 20+ 20gold/pnt (world-destroying menace all pretenders should band up against) ====================== Steel Battalion Example: Fear 5 = 4X6+1X9=33gold. Bringing the SB total to 139gold/76res Awe ====================== 1-4 4g/pnt Awe has been described as a personal force field effect. 5-9 9g/pnt It is light in effect at low levels, but very powerful in force. 10-14 15g/pnt 15-19 20g/pnt 20+ 30g/pnt ====================== Ethereal ====================== 10% more gold ====================== Steel Battalion Example: 139base gold X 1.10 = 153gold Regeneration ====================== X% X% more gold (werewolf has regen 10%, Tarasque has 60%) ====================== Steel Battalion Example: 10% regeneration; 153g X 1.10 = 168g Resistance (fire, cold, poison, shock) ====================== 1-25 flat 3 gold 26-50 flat 6 gold 51-75 flat 9 gold 76-100 flat 12 gold ====================== Steel Battalion Example: 100% fire res; 168g +12g = 180g Mounted ====================== +10 gold adds 10ap, and 1-2 province travel points ====================== Animal ====================== 0 ====================== Amphibian ====================== 20% more gold ====================== Steel Battalion Example: 180g X 1.20 = 216g Aquatic ====================== -5 ====================== Pooramphibian ====================== 10% more gold ====================== Flying ====================== 15 gold adds 1-2 province travel points ====================== neednoteat ====================== 5 gold ====================== heal ====================== I am not sure what this does. Heal unit only, or heal all units in stack? ====================== Heat ====================== 5 gold ====================== Cold ====================== 5 gold ====================== Trample ====================== 5 gold ====================== Immobile ====================== -5 gold ====================== Immortal ====================== +50% ====================== Iceprot ====================== ?? ====================== Poisonarmor ====================== ====================== Holy ====================== +33% (official word is +50%, but I think that is too much) ====================== Berserk ====================== +1g/pnt (max berserk value should be def value, imho) ====================== Illusion ====================== ?? ====================== Stealthy ====================== +5g stealth units cannot have metal armor ====================== Spy ====================== same as stealth? ====================== Assassin ====================== +5gp ====================== Noitem ====================== -5gold ====================== Coldblood ====================== -5gp ====================== Inanimate ====================== +5gp ====================== Magicbeing ====================== 0g ====================== Undead ====================== 0gp ====================== Blind ====================== 5gp ====================== Eyes ====================== 1 -5gp 2 0gp 3-4 3gp 5+ 10gp ====================== Eyeloss ====================== 5gp ====================== Horrormark ====================== 5gp ====================== Entangle ====================== 5gp ====================== Fireshield ====================== 5gp+1/dge pnt ====================== Poisoncloud ====================== 5gp+1/dge pnt ====================== Diseasecloud ====================== 5gp+1/dge pnt ====================== Item Costs ========== F=# fire gems E=# earth gems As=# astral gems D=# death gems N=# nature gems Ai=# air gems B=# blood slaves X=Total cost in gems=(1.5F)+(1.25E)+(0.75As)+D+N+Ai L=Level of construction=(1,2,4,6 or 8) Gold cost = G = 4*X Ressource cost = R = 8*(L+B/10) Example: Fire Sword Gold price=4*5*1.5= 30 gold Resource price = 8*1= 8 resources Example: Hellsword Gold price = 4*10*2= 80 gold Resource price = 8*(6+1)= 56 resources |
Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
With respect, if you're going to go against the majority opinion regarding the value of Sacred (and it's "Sacred", not "Holy", "Holy" is a special magic path), then I think you're going to have to explain/justify why you think it's only worth 33% rather than 50% (which is what IW, myself, and many others feel is about right; some people feel even 60-75% is justified for some units). Simply saying it's too much isn't helpful. (Personally, I think a Jotun Woodsman at 50g is too expensive, as are Nifel giants, but obviously IW thinks they aren't.) So if you're going to change things, it's incumbent on you to explain in greater detail why you think they should be changed.
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Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
Arryn,
Thanks. Sacred, not Holy. Sigh. Lots of problems with it, and I appreciate you pointing them out. No sarcasm intended. I noted that it was my opinion, and that the official word was 50%. How about I reverse it? I will note the cost as 50%, but IMHO it should be 35%. I think that is how I will handle any unofficial vs. official discrepancies. In any case, the whole thing should be taken with a grain of salt. It is unofficial, and merely guidelines. Albeit, what everyone has done so far seems pretty accurate! One thing I might do if I have time is make a smaller guidebook with less complicated rules. It might be less accurate, but it would be easier for beginners to pick up modding from. |
Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
BTW, someone a while back (Zen or Cherry?) pointed out that some skills are worth far more than others. MR and morale are worth a LOT more than strength or attack. Protection is worth more than defense. I see that the list still has the same cost for all skills. This really should be adjusted in the manner that was suggested by whomever originally pointed it out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
Arryn, I'd love to see some debate about it. Two people opined that ST and ATT were not very important, but Def definitely was. Other characteristics were mentioned as well. I am unsure if that is true.
E.g. 1 on 1 attack, Def and Arm are both just about as important. 2 on 1, Def becomes less important as it is less effective; in this case, armor would be more important than defense skill. 3 on 1, Def becomes even less effective, while I believe armor still works against all attackers. This makes me think Att and Def are just as important, and Armor is more important, so should cost more. Someone suggested that natural protection should be more expensive than artificial protection. I am unsure if they meant this in a game-balance way, or as in it is hard to have natural armor equivalent to plate armor--very hard. So it should cost more. I would love for people to kick these ideas around, provide examples, etc. We'd all learn from it, and I will add it in as it makes sense to me. |
Re: Proposed Modding Cost Guidelines
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