.com.unity Forums - Pretender Balance Mod

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Re: Pretender Balance Mod

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Originally posted by Chris Byler:
Acashic Record, IMO, is only effective if you crank the site frequency way up (this both increases the success rate and number of sites found, and decreases the relative costs by giving everyone more gem income). 25 pearls to often find nothing? No thanks, I'll use the path-specific spells for a gem or two each, or send some mages to search the old fashioned way for no gems at all.

The path-specific spells are also nice (I've underestimated them for a long time). 'Manual' searching is too slow.

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Granted, a lot of people *do* turn the site frequency way up, but I don't (at least in SP) - magic dominates the endgame enough already, increasing the site frequency only accelerates this.

The most common frequency I've seen here is 50. That would mean in mountains, the chance is 75%. Assuming that I know how the site placement works, that would mean an average of 3 sites in 'good' areas. That's not 'often nothing'. I'm certainly not saying you should spam Acashic all over the place.

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You also neglect the awesome research power of rainbows. Titanoids can't match this, partly because of their new path cost and partly because of their chassis cost.

The difference in research isn't that great, and if you're site-searching, you're not researching.

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I think the introduction of the bless system did nerf the old "2 or 3 of everything" rainbow, for some nations. But others don't rely on their bless effect (base Ulm comes to mind - they could really use a strong researcher and good site searcher, too).

Possibly. With Ulm, though, I want Forge up ASAP. That requires a 4 Earth for reliability.

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Also, you don't need the Elemental Staff/Ring of Sorcery/Ring of Wizardry for high-path-requiring rituals; for rituals you only need to boost one path at a time (or occasionally two for something like Astral Corruption, King of Banefires, Father Illearth etc.) Make some individual path boosting items (which are much cheaper) and swap them around. Humanoids have plenty of item slots to play with (except the archmage on horse or freak, who is handicapped by his inability to wear boots of earth, so don't take him if you want earth). ES/RoS/RoW give research bonuses to a rainbow, and make him stronger on the battlefield, but they aren't really needed for rituals.

Er, okay? What Rituals are you speaking of, here?

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Rainbows aren't the best for path 5+ spells like elemental courts, globals, etc - although they can cast them the usually require items to do so. They really excel at research, site searching and forging (few items and even fewer magic sites require more than 3 in a path).

They suffer from severe overwork. If I can only do one thing a turn with my Pretender, I want the most effective return possible. I don't feel I get that with Rainbows.

[quote]I don't think buying every pretender's dominion up to 6 is a fair comparison - not all nations need that high a dominion. /QUOTE]

I used the number that other people told me was most common in MP games. I'll try to get better data from now on.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod

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Originally posted by Blitz:
Just make them all free, like the Oracle and Manticore and Nataraja mkay?

I already mentioned this. However, you do this, and you lose the balance between the Human Pretenders, because they're not all made alike.

I mean, why would you take the Crone then? I would be hard-pressed to reason my way out of taking the Enchantress.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod

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I already mentioned this. However, you do this, and you lose the balance between the Human Pretenders, because they're not all made alike.

I mean, why would you take the Crone then? I would be hard-pressed to reason my way out of taking the Enchantress.

Well the crone has FOUR misc slots for one thing. That dosen't suck. Of course the Freak Lord would be wholly superior to the Archmage then, having THREE misc slots and trample, etc. You could tweak here and there... give the Archmage dominion 2 to start maybe.

But in most cases, I would suggest you recost pretenders rather than change their abilities. It's a lot easier to get the community to accept a new price for a unit than to understand why you decided to give the Archmage four arm slots =).

Re: Pretender Balance Mod

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Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Hrm. FYI a pretender with only 2's can get 5+ in every path through items only. And I'm not talking artifacts here, that's doable at Construction 6.

Question is, who is going to forge those items for the 2222222 pretender? I have to do some downloading before I can look at the magiboost.xls file, but I don't your low rainbow can actually forge the items necessary to get close to all 5's.

And I don't see many human players being willing to forge the more powerful, hard to get, magic boosting items for an opponent.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod

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Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
According to Zen, 4 paths at 3 would be the closest thing to 'normal' Raibows you get, and 4 is just as close to 1 as it is to 7.

So in your view 1 path is just as 'rainbowish' as 7? I'm not Zen, but I'm pretty confident he would call those 4 paths a minimum to get the 'rainbow' label.

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140 Pearls (the price of the quoted equipment) gets you almost 6 Acashics.

Pure theory. In practice a true rainbow with brains will use a Hammer to forge these rings. Ie, 90 pearls, about 3.5 ARs.

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Acashic, unlike the equipment, gives you an immediate and permanent gem income back.

Sounds like you're assuming equipment is always forged out of purpose.

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It is true that I don't see the point of true Rainbows.

Great, I've no problem with that, that's a perfectly valid point of view. The only thing I want to point out is the method you use to demonstrate it - ie, designing a decent pretender who capitalizes on his/her strengths, and then comparing him/her to an human mage who doesn't. It makes humans look worse than they are by several orders of magnitude. As if they needed that.

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*shrugs* Where is the benefit over, say, a Great Mother with (etc.)

Maybe, but that's besides the point I'm discussing.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod

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Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
It is true that I don't see the point of true Rainbows. If you use them for site-searching, they're very slow, and might not even find sites that your other mages can use.

They aren't slow at searching, a rainbow 2 mage gives you about 75%-80% of all magic sites in a province every other turn. Level 3 and four sites are very rare.

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*shrugs* Where is the benefit over, say, a Great Mother with 4N/4E/3S, who can cast Gift of Health after Construction 4, can cast Acashic naturally, and Forge before spending over 100 gems that would have been halved under the Forge?

That pretender isn't usable in multiplayer, since even an astral 1 mage will be likely to kill her. You also can't count on forge staying up for more than a few turns at most.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod

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Question is, who is going to forge those items for the 2222222 pretender? I have to do some downloading before I can look at the magiboost.xls file, but I don't your low rainbow can actually forge the items necessary to get close to all 5's.

And I don't see many human players being willing to forge the more powerful, hard to get, magic boosting items for an opponent.

Here goes...

Starshine Skullcap = S3
Crystal Coin = S4
Ring of Sorcery = S5 D3 N3 B3
Ring of Magery (lose the coin) = F3 A3 W3 E3 S5 D4 N4 B4
Staff of Elemental Mastery = F4 A4 W4 E4 S5 D4 N4 B4
Robe of the Archmagi = All paths 5, Astral 6

From there you can basicly boost yourself to cast any ritual in the game. Robe of the Magi probably isn't a great idea on a humanoid pretender, but it's there.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod

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]Question is, who is going to forge those items for the 2222222 pretender? I have to do some downloading before I can look at the magiboost.xls file, but I don't your low rainbow can actually forge the items necessary to get close to all 5's.

With 2S + 2E:

Forge a Starshine Skullcap. Go to 3S.
Forge a Crystal Coin. Go to 4S.
Forge a Ring of Sorcery. Go to 5S + 3 in all Sorcery paths.
Forge a Ring of Wizardry. Go to 3 in all Elemental paths, 4 in all Sorcery Paths, and stay at 5 Astral.
Forge a Staff of Elemental Mastery. Go to 4 in all Elemental paths.

That's a way to get to at _least_ 4 in all paths starting in 2 in all paths... of course, that's a VERY specific set of forges you have to make. From here, you can remove the Helm for a Fire Helm or Air Helm (go to 5 Air or Fire), Earth boots for 5 Earth, Robe of the Sea for 5 Water, Thistle Mace for 5 Nature, Skullface for 5 Death, and I'm not sure if you want to worry about Blood, but there are several options.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
They aren't slow at searching, a rainbow 2 mage gives you about 75%-80% of all magic sites in a province every other turn. Level 3 and four sites are very rare.

I'm aware of that. However, 'every other turn' is too slow. That's half the rate of expansion, and that's assuming you have a searcher for each army you have. Much easier is simply to stay in your capital and cast site-searching spells, which DO search at the rate of your expansion.

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That pretender isn't usable in multiplayer, since even an astral 1 mage will be likely to kill her. You also can't count on forge staying up for more than a few turns at most.

That's if an Astral 1 mage is ever in combat with her. It's not like I'm planning to send that Pretender into combat. The only way I see it likely that you're attacking my Pretender with Astral Mages is if you're storming my capital, in which case I would think that I've already lost.

She's also no less survivable than a Human Rainbow that has 3 Astral. Or do you normally raise your Astral Magic on your Rainbows to the 6 range as well?

The Forge thing, though, I grant you. But that argument can be said for any Global. Also, the faster you get Forge up, the longer it _should_ Last, due to research constraints. Therefore, IF you want Forge up, you'd be better off with a Pretender with 4E instead of a Rainbow-2, IMO.

Re: Pretender Balance Mod

Quote:

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
She's also no less survivable than a Human Rainbow that has 3 Astral. Or do you normally raise your Astral Magic on your Rainbows to the 6 range as well?

No need to, you just have script your rainbow for (Returnning) since he's not supposed to see battles. The only path I'd be tempted to raise above 3 is earth, to get WR immunity without having to rely on a Robe of Shadows.

In my experience, it's much harder to kill a mage who knows how to protect himself and doesn't want to fight, than a Great Mother.

[ June 18, 2004, 15:50: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]