Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

They are pistol cartridges that are fired with much longer barrels from SMGs than pistols, giving more velocity and basic accuracy. Sometimes SMG cartridges were made specially for submachineguns, with more powerful powder, because that gave even more mv compared to regular pistols. Also SMG sight arrangement, even only because of the longer distance of the aft and front sights make them inherently more accurate that any pistol. When you are thinking of a weapon where it should not have range past the same hex it is located in the game considers this range 0hex=0meters. So 1hex range is actually max range of 50meters, like hand grenades, infantry flamethrowers, pistols etc.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

As they do in-game.

Worked quite well for Czechoslovakian SMG troops accompanying tanks in WW2. Not by causing a lot of damage but by forcing any Panzerfaust wielder in the trenches to keep their heads down at ranges where artillery was unable to supress enemy anymore due to danger zone issues. Of course they were helped by better ballistics of 7.62x24mm cartridge. And they were also helped by realisation that the three tanks they have for support is the entire force their assigned battalion was able to get together and if they let harm come to them, they would have no tanks coming to support them on the next day.

If you are to employ aimed semiauto fire, you have to wait until the enemy sticks his head out of his trench (or from behind his pile of rubble), risking that he'll have time to send his ugly Panzerfaust into the tank you're supposed to protect. But sound of bursts of bullets splatting over his head might convince him it's not even worth looking out. As it is said, "It's not the bulled with your name on it you should be wary of, it's that with To whomever it may concern".

SMG regiments weren't used just for close assaults and house-to-house - and it was quite often used tactic to use that 71-rounds disk magasine for suppressive barrages when closing on enemy, firing it empty and then in close-in fighting use handier 35-rounds mags.

Finns evidently thought otherwise - doctrine for Suomi KP/31 was counting with harrassing fires up to 500 meters (10 hexes), aimed fire at man-sized targets up to 300 meters (6 hexes) and burst fire generally under 100 meters (2 hexes). Of course KP/31 was a high-quality SMG, but the ammo was still 9mm Luger. In reality, close terrain on Karelian isthmus led to employment in the last role being most frequent but the longer-ranged action still took place in favorable conditions.
Bear in mind, it would be hard to simulate such distinction in-game, as there's no means how to "switch" the weapon from semi auto to full auto and from one range to another, so compromises have to be made, so Suomi gets the same kill and range (and accuracy) rating as most other SMG's.

Granted the "5000 bullets to kill one man" statistics are correct (most likely it was lower as they are taking into account SUPPLIED rounds, not those actually fired), seems accuracy wasn't guarded so closely http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Not to mention similar statistics from Vietnam or WWII Pacific warfare.

IE 25 meters and less, since the troops aren't lined up on the far side of the hex? I was able to hit reliably man-sized target at that range with my fery first 9mm pistol magasine to fire at that range. True, the target wasn't shooting back.

As they are in game as well. The closer the weapon is to its max range, the more often does it "hit" as far as neighboring hexes go, ie complete total utter miss. Since in-game SMG's have generally range of 3, it happens quite often and saw it happen repeatedly even at 1 hex range. IF they do hit, they are devastating (and again, Primary inf. weapon class in SP means squad's worth of SMG's is firing to prosuce those 1-2 casaulties) but that's pretty big IF and it's hard to get to have such a chance unless the enemy infantry is suppressed well enough by other means. Like by other two SMG squads covering their advance by short bursts from a bit farther away.

As would be in-game, if for nothing else they have significantly longer range.

AFAIK those studies were based on hospital records, so are inherently biased by fact they don't take into account those poor buggers who didn't make it there. And anyway, many of these artillery casaulties would happen outside SP game scope - further in the rear, in preparationary fires before the battle, in random artillery duels before or after the battle, long-range interdiction fires far behind your back and so on. The game doesn't want to simulate all this, it is content to try to emulate combat that's actually happening on your few square kilometers.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

M1928A1 Thompson in Viet Nam. M1A1 at a gun range. And they are NOT identical. The 1928A1 has a much higher cyclic rate. I have no idea what "somewhat effectively" means. A subgun has crude sights at best. The Lyman sights that used to come on the 1928A1 were a bit of a joke. Expensive, delicate sights that were rarely if ever used in combat.
Achieveing multiple hits ona target with a sungun at 150 meters would be nothing short of spectacular. And multiple hits on a target are what a subgun NEEDS to be effective.
9MM and .45ACP FMJ rounds are not known for being outstanding manstoppers. The .45ACP is better, but only because of the larger hole it makes. I wasn't boasting my experience...it's a fact. And I put more stock in personal experience than numerical theories based on varying information from books. I do agree with Chuck that the Ian Hogg books are the most informative and useful. I wish folks who created this game consulted with some live survivors or at the least read some WW2 history books about weapon's abilities and intended uses before they plugged in the numbers that are in there right now. I hope SOMEBODY has reworked the OOB weapons files and the file is available for others to use. If not, I'll just keep changing the numbers until they eventually are more accurate and representative on real world numbers.

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Sounds nice in theory, but simply not true. The barrel of the 1911A1 .45ACP pistol Uncle Sammie used was 5 inches long. It gave a velocity of 800fps. The barrel on the Thompson Submachinegun was 10 inches long. It's velocity was around 920fps. Not enough to make a significant difference in bullet performance. Not even enough to make the bullet go supersonic. And that velocity dropped off VERY RAPIDLY the further away from the muzzle that heavy (230 grain) non-aerodynamic cartridge went. I know of special steel-cased .45ACP ammo used by Uncle Sam. But that was used in ALL .45ACP cartridges because brass was in short supply. It didn't travel any faster than normal brass ammo. There a limit to how much "oomph" you can boost a cartridge case to before you start destroying parts or getting ruptured case heads. Accuracy and subguns simply aren't compatible in WW2 designs. The MP40 used a crude non-adjustable V notch and blade front sight. The Lyman sight that came on the early Thompsons was dropped in favor of a crude plate with a peep hole and a blade front sight. It was cheaper to produce and just as effective as the Lyman sight. If you've never fired a full automatic weapon, it's hard to convey the way it jumps around in your hand. The l;ast version of the Thompson was the M1A1. It fired from an open bolt, much the same as the MP40. The weight os that massive bolt slamming forward every time it fired pretty much made sights more cosmetic than functional. It's pretty difficult to find historical pics of a Thompson gunner or a MP40 gunner using the sights to mshoot it. Both guns were usually fored from the hip in a point-shoot style of shooting. Many troops that used these guns got quite good at it. When you see the modern H&K subguns being used they almost ALWAYS use a stock and sights. Times and styles change http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
THANK YOU for the info about the 1 hex settings!!! That will help me a lot!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Dep

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Well, as I said I know how 9x19, 7,62x39 and 7,62x54 acts, when fired full auto. I have no personal experience of .45ACP. However here is a good thread about WW2 SMGs and their uses in different armies, by guys who know or have fired those guns, maybe not in WW2 but later.

Presenting again our beloved tanknet: http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php...gun&st=120

And from personal experince I can guarantee that the Suomi SMG 9x19 was very easy to handle with 6-9 round automatic bursts and regularly landed on target with surprising accuracy, that can not be said from same distance with an AK or finnish M62 7,62x39 on similar full auto bursts.

Also consider this: if you drop one SMG range to 2hexes from three, there will be twenty guys complaining from different reasons that why this gun outranges the other, and have about million arguments why it actually should be the other way round. The developers would probably like to see to drop individual weapon designations and use only a generic SMG, rifle or self-loading rifle or carbine. However this will not happen, because there would be again ten oob makers saying that they want to present their Thompson, M16 or whatever for some reason (reality) to the game, so the individual weapon names will stand.

If you drop all SMGs to range 1hex, SMG-armed formations will suffer heavily. They will be gunned down from 2+ hex range by any regular rifle squad and will be mostly useless in this game system. My opinion comes from 5 years of gaming experience with SPWW2 / SPMBT system.

edited for spelling

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Hi pdoktar
For my experience I have fired the f1 which is prety much the sten and when you pull the trigger and the big fat bolt luches forward I can tell you when it hits the bullet the gun wants to jump out of your hands. The muzzle then proceeds to climb rapidly, there is hardly any point aiming. Training is to lean into the weapon yell and fire. In short its a dog, handy in a house no doubt.
Im sure most other SMGs perform much better.
Marek mentions harrassing fire as a justification for a long SMG range but LMGs ect can also indulge in harrassing fire past their effective range but I think this isnt modeled for them and so shouldnt be for SMGs either. Actually I think dropping the range of all SMGs from 3 to 2 hexes would give more "realistic" play.
Im not sure if there are other SMG formations about but as for disadvantaging the tank riders dont forget they do have a tank to provide long range support.
While on the subject of tank riders I think it would be a good idea if the tank riders were in the same alpha group as the tanks like say panzergrenadiers, ie a1-a3 are tanks and a4-a6 are tank riders.
Also soviet formation unit 063 has a LMG which I believe tank riders didnt have. not sure if they came with anti tank mines of molotov cocktails either, these are antitank weapons and they do after all have a (several) tank(s) with them to take care of other tanks. I thought they were famous for being trained in and armed with just one weapon (ppsh). ie they are there to protect the tanks from infantry.
Best Regards Chuck.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

I recommend re-reading my post. Harrassing fire (in the case I mentioned, ie KP M/31) was for ranges up to 500 meters (10 hexes), aimed fire at single opponents up to 300 meters (6 hexes). 100 meters was for controlled burst fire. While you cannot switch from one mode to another in SP engine, I'd say range of 150 meters (at cost of almost non-existant accuracy in-game) is quite justified.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Quite justified for all SMG's?

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Quite justifiable for all I'd say, even Sten Gun with sawn off barrel and sights would be able to put out suppressive fire up to 150 meters. At nil accuracy, of course, but the same would happen in-game.
And again, judging from the war memoirs I have read, esp. from zones where SMG's were used more than in US Army, it seems just this was quite frequent mode of use when the goal was to keep "their" heads down at ranges where artillery was already a no-no.

Re: OOBs way out of whack?
 

Hi Marek
So if every other weapon in the game uses its effective range why should we make an exception of the SMG and let it have extra 'suppressive' range. Effective range for a SMG firing bursts being 2 hexes or less.
Not that Ive read the same texts as you but Ive never come accross this long range use of SMG suppressive shooting. Seems a great way to get in close with the enemy and have no bullets left once you get there, obviosly some quotes or references would be helpful.
Beat Regards Chuck.