Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

ok I am curious, which MBTs do you consider as modern? Aren't all of them at least 20 years in development in one way or another?

I hope you are not implying that my comment is part of some propaganda against western tanks, because you would be way off. way way way off.

Do you consider the (export versions or not) T-55 and T-72 as the same....I don't know....tier? as the Leopard 2A4? That would be an interesting way of seeing things.
But that's your prerogative.

Having lone tanks in towns sounds like suicide, but that is not always (ever?) the case. At least from photos I have seen, they appear to be on open ground. The question is, where was the protection and/or fire support of those units? (talking about the Turkish units in this case).
If any of the destroyed/captured tanks were inside towns etc, who sends them there in the first place and if for some reason they do, shouldn't they have far more support? Turkey has a large army, is it like the second largest in NATO? They surely can afford (units/men) to send more than 2-3 tanks at a time.

I don't know. The whole thing stinks. Either a setup or useless command.

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

Well the devil is in the details. No version of T55 is even close to a Leo-2A4, but there are several versions of the T72 that are comparable, or even superior to the Leo-2A4 (T-72B3M for example). The newest generation of Leos (Leo-2A5, Leo-2A6, not to mention the A7 version) are better than most T72s lying around*, but Turkey does not have any of these models.

Most "modern" tanks in service now are actually product of the 70ies. Some notable exceptions are the South Korean K2 or the brand new T-14 Armata.

*though technically, the T90 is in fact an upgraded T72.

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

From what I have read and looked at the loss of these tanks looks down to poor tactics and training as much as anything else and, perhaps, command in terms of lack of support troops.

If you put enough vehicles in harms way, even MBT's some will get hit and some will get knocked out, especially given this version of the Leopard 2 is not as heavily protected as later versions.

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

The 2A4's Turkey has were front line equipment in the early 90's and development has moved on which is why there have been 2A5's 2A6's and 2A7's since then

No......... but certain arms manufacturers and nations might think putting an ATGM into them might be since most tanks destroyed in this conflict have been Russian in origin and the Leo has been long touted as a top line tank......it was ....in 1990 ....and is as a 2A7 , not so much as an early 90's vintage 2A4 in 2016 with no active or passive anti-ATGM countermeasures.

It makes little difference what the tank is when the side armour is less than the penetration of the missile hitting it....does it ? The Leo's crew would have a better chance of getting out but that's about all. The T-55 was wonderful....in 1960....not so much in 2016 against any ATGM

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

My bad realised that later

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

I think ( hope ? ) what the Turks and everyone else learns from this is the absolute necessity in this era of missile and tank design of active and/ or passive ATGM countermeasures. Those two Leos could very well be still in Turkish Army hands right now if they had Trophy installed

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

...or went with the LEO-2T Program. Maybe now they'll more seriously reconsider this program as the ALTAY stumbles slowly off the production lines. LEO-2T would've given them that "top tier" LEO they obviously need. Maybe they (Turkey) should learn from the Indonesians who were smart enough to have had the Germans upgrade them to the LEO-2A6 standard after they received their first batch (~5) of modernized 2A4 tanks, they recognized they might need more as the shadow of China was just starting to arise in the South China Sea AOR.

Gotta go duty calls! Happy New Year everyone!!

Regards,
Pat

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

Human loss aside, I am not particularly sad they lost/lose tanks. But yeah, actually was thinking the same thing years ago when in Greece we still had mostly M60, M48 and even AMX 30B as our main tanks. Not saying the current Leo 2HEL is the best solution, no idea how better it would have been in the same exact situation without change of tactics too. The Israelis have the right idea IMO.

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

Tanks, and other armoured vehicles actually expected to fight in the front line, need every advantage they can get when faced with modern missiles.

Re: Leo2A4 destroyed
 

in case anyones interested....if you try the same thing with the game you get the same results ( the Muja OOB now has Konkurs )
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1483222346