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Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG (Post 855249)

Yes, so what ?
Lots of nations have a mix of vehicle origins though right now Ukraine is the king of the hill for that but that's they way it worked out and we are not going to ignore it

OK, but even then we might end up in a situation where Ukraine has literally no Bradley left.

Ukraine started with 100 Bradley's in March. It lost 50-60 in 6 months. At this rate it will have 0 Bradley's in February unless restocked.

Is there any accounting for a country that had equipment and then lost it? I haven't seen any legislation to replace the losses, they are getting a mix of other vehicles but they seem to be heading to 0 Bradley soon.

They are of course capturing abandoned Russian equipment which is the source of their growth.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...

You have your opinion and we have ours.

As mentioned earlier - if you really think you are the expert here, you can edit your own OOB with Mobhack for your own use. You can even post that in the Mods forum to see if anyone else agrees with you.

Meanwhile, we will stick to what is being reported via reliable sources. The UKR OOB may well change by next Spring, from further info supplied by these sources. Maybe those will match your opinions as expressed here, but most likely not.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mobhack (Post 855255)

I'm fine with that. I'm just not surprised if Ukraine ends up losing equipment it now has zero of.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustang (Post 855244)

Being abandoned does not prove it was originally operational, almost the opposite.

52 M2A2 ODS Bradleys lost/damaged/abandoned is a lot more than a "handful" in contact. The original tranche of Bradleys which was announced in January 2023 was for 109 M2A2-ODS-SA and 4 Bradley-FIST variants.

Quote:

I just wouldn't consider it realistic to have major Ukrainian tank and apc forces.

:confused: Very confused right now.

https://twitter.com/AlexRaptor94/sta...27249921741202

that's a lot of Leopard 2's in AFU service.

Quote:

Ukraine right now is a red green "buy everything" oob.

Of course they are. They're buying anything that can be reasonably delivered with full technical support packages.

Quote:

Not to be political but Ukraine isn't a real country. It was not included in the original country because it's just a pass through for other countries to dump equipment on.

:confused:

1.) In 2005-2006 Ukraine had 3,784 MBTs, 3,043 AIFVs, 8,492 APCs, 1,143 Towed Guns, 1,298 SP Guns, and 200+ Mi-24 HINDs, along with 40 x Mi-6 HOOK and 300+ Mi-8 HIP transport helicopters, as well as 400~ mobile tactical SAM systems and 400+ combat aircraft of all types, plus 800+ strategic heavy SAM systems.

2.) In the original SP2 and SP3 days in the late 1990s; a good number of scenarios made involved Ukraine; as it was a potential fUSSR flashpoint.

Ergo, it made sense for Ukraine to be included in SP:MBT when it was being developed into WinSPMBT.

Quote:

And yes, the Bradley has seen limited use, according to your own sources most of them were abandoned.

The US has officially pledged up to 186 M2 Bradleys; unofficially, now that the AFU has established units of the type as well as a spare parts line; they have an unlimited credit line on US Bradleys.

It makes no difference if AFU loses 50, 100 or all 186 M2s pledged, as the US will simply pull more M2s and refurbish them as needed to keep AFU "topped up". This isn't possible with the European NATO stockpiles; as due to the CFE treaty, everything in Europe over a certain limit had to be destroyed, so there's no huge stockpile of Leopard 1s or 2s left over from 1992 the way there is with US Abrams and Bradleys.

Only the US and Russia were able to "cheat" by moving their stockpiles out of the "European" zone.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard (Post 855258)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustang (Post 855244)

Being abandoned does not prove it was originally operational, almost the opposite.

Your source does not say they were damaged in combat. Many, maybe 90% of vehicles historically are lost in accidents or other problems outside of combat.

Quote:

I just wouldn't consider it realistic to have major Ukrainian tank and apc forces.

:confused: Very confused right now.

https://twitter.com/AlexRaptor94/sta...27249921741202

that's a lot of Leopard 2's in AFU service.

I am fine with including the leopard 2a4 because Ukraine has no other tanks. It's soviet tanks are mostly obsolete. The 2a4 is the only tank it really has.

The 2a6 and other tanks are not available in number.

Quote:

Of course they are. They're buying anything that can be reasonably delivered with full technical support packages.

It undermines the concept of what an OOB is, you might as well include everything because Ukraine can refurbish a IS2 and call it operational.

Quote:

Not to be political but Ukraine isn't a real country. It was not included in the original country because it's just a pass through for other countries to dump equipment on.
:confused:

1.) In 2005-2006 Ukraine had 3,784 MBTs, 3,043 AIFVs, 8,492 APCs, 1,143 Towed Guns, 1,298 SP Guns, and 200+ Mi-24 HINDs, along with 40 x Mi-6 HOOK and 300+ Mi-8 HIP transport helicopters, as well as 400~ mobile tactical SAM systems and 400+ combat aircraft of all types, plus 800+ strategic heavy SAM systems.

2.) In the original SP2 and SP3 days in the late 1990s; a good number of scenarios made involved Ukraine; as it was a potential fUSSR flashpoint.

Ergo, it made sense for Ukraine to be included in SP:MBT when it was being developed into WinSPMBT.

That is fine if you include the huge t55 and bmp 1 fleet of obsolete vehicles but I am just talking about their modern equipment.

Quote:

And yes, the Bradley has seen limited use, according to your own sources most of them were abandoned.

The US has officially pledged up to 186 M2 Bradleys; unofficially, now that the AFU has established units of the type as well as a spare parts line; they have an unlimited credit line on US Bradleys.

It makes no difference if AFU loses 50, 100 or all 186 M2s pledged, as the US will simply pull more M2s and refurbish them as needed to keep AFU "topped up". This isn't possible with the European NATO stockpiles; as due to the CFE treaty, everything in Europe over a certain limit had to be destroyed, so there's no huge stockpile of Leopard 1s or 2s left over from 1992 the way there is with US Abrams and Bradleys.

Only the US and Russia were able to "cheat" by moving their stockpiles out of the "European" zone.

I do not think Ukraine has anywhere near an unlimited credit line, and that is the real issue here. If 2024 comes around and they aren't receiving more equipment then the underwhelming US support for Ukraine will be more obvious. We will wait and see.

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...

Isn't this image from around April/May?

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeraaa (Post 855264)

Isn't this image from around April/May?

April in a training accident and it's old news now

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG (Post 855266)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeraaa (Post 855264)

Isn't this image from around April/May?

April in a training accident and it's old news now

Arguably a lot of the losses in Ukraine are training mistakes.

https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/202...=70&width=1440

Re: Question about Ukraine OOB...

An example of equipment Ukraine had in the past and now lost.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...lI_KklfZe08Db6

The article implies Ukraine has no real TB2 force anymore. Therefore, if we had them in the game, we would adjust the OOB accordingly.

Countries can have weapons in the past and lose them, and if we get a similar report for other equipment we can consider it.