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Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
"In reviewing your mounts again, I'm noticing that actually they seem more balanced than I remember thinking they were on my first reading of them.
However, here's a specific example of the sort of thing I meant: Long Name := Pulsed Gatling Mount Short Name := Pgat Mount Description := 20% of cost of normal, 10% size, 20% damage, +20% to hit. 50kt min. Used to imitate a 'gatling' effect. Code := PGat Cost Percent := 20 Tonnage Percent := 10 Tonnage Structure Percent := 10 Damage Percent := 20 Supply Percent := 10 Range Modifier := 0 Weapon To Hit Modifier := 20 Vehicle Size Minimum := 50 Weapon Type Requirement := Direct Fire Vehicle Type := Ship/Base/Satellite/Weapon Platform Number of Tech Req := 1 Tech Area Req 1 := Smaller Weapons Tech Level Req 1 := 3 In this case, Smaller Weapons is a fairly cheap tech that I (at least - can't speak for others) usually reasearch relatively early on. In this case, when I hit level 3, I would notice that with this mount I can suddenly cram twice as much firepower in the same space, halve my supply use per damage, and get a +20 to-hit mod, on all weapons. In this case, I'd suggest adding an research-expensive tech area for Gatling Mounts to cover this and the earlier Gatling mounts you've put under Smaller Weapons. I'd also give them a range mod of -1 or -2, and change the supply mod of this one from 10 to 40-100 (gatling weapons, to follow the real-Earth analogy, consume [and waste] massive quantities of ammo)." Actually PvK that is a mount from my mod (Deathstalker's Mount Mod) not AJC's Mount Mod. But your concerns are noted and welcomed. I am still balancing some of the mounts and I agree with your 'massive ammo used' and the range restrictions. Will probally add them with the next Version. I have not added 'New' technologies mainly for the reason that I wanted my Mount Mod to be added to any basic se4 game, its mainly there to provide many new options without having to massively rescript the tech area and AI's that have to use the new tech. AJC, good to see that I have some 'competition' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I rather like some of your mounts (esp the computer mount, nicely done btw). Rather curious as to what you think of my Mount Mod. Any suggestions?? (comments/critisims)? |
Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
thank you very much! I guess am a rogue modder, I usually just stick mods out there and never hear anything about them.
I prefer to think of modding , as no so much a competition but as a collaborative effort to improve the base game and add to the fun. One of these days a vote should be held to determine the top features of the most used mods. Then the best of each mod should be absorbed into a single custom mod. If you like any of those mounts you should incorporate them into yours! I have actually been playing with the DeathStalker mount mod in a PBW game. Since I am not very familiar the mounts I have struggled a bit trying to determine which ones are the best to use , and which mounts can be used on what. This is mainly because the list of mounts is so long and I havent actually studied DS Mount Mod in detail. Since you say your working on balance, you should be pleased with the new abilities on mounts. It will allow you to do alot of cool things with the mod as you are working with it. Things I felt important to consider with the mounts. 1. watching the cost increase to components when placed on a mount. Keep an eye on the economic impact to the AIs build rate. Making them too costly really slows the AI down. 2. Making sure that the mounts are not so easy to get that they would be overwhelming the early techs usually gained in the early stages of the game. (This drove the decision to make it difficult to get the mounts. It can only be done through prolonged research efforts. To get the specialized mounts early would require extreme efforts in research, which would impact a players empires expansion rate in the game. ) 3. Find a way to counter the Computer virus/ Allegiance Subverter combination. Computer mounts. |
Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
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Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
I dont have a pulse gattling mount in my mount mod -that's DeathStalkers mount ..
None of the mounts in my Mount mod decrease damage when applied to weapons. [ September 02, 2002, 19:58: Message edited by: AJC ] |
Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
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Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
Sorry AJC - as you saw, I got your mount mod confused with Deathstalker's.
I guess some of what I said applies to yours, too, however. Looking over your mount mod again, I think it would be interesting and fun to play with, though my concerns/suggestions would mainly be: 1) The effects are pretty sudden in some cases. For instance, I'd prefer to have miniaturization come in a series of levels instead of suddenly being able to half-size components. Of course, it might get to be a hassle to have too many, since they all go in the "mounts" list. Maybe at least add a 75% miniaturization mount available before the 50% one. 2) Some of the mounts are just clearly better than not using them, so there is no choice involved. Advanced shields and advanced weapons in particular allow great improvements to performance per kT AND cost less than full-size components, so there doesn't seem to be a choice involved in whether to use them. 3) The tech level requirements don't really fit my imagination of what they represent. I don't get why computers, military science, and applied research would result in sudden multipliers to the abilities of certain components. An example: Long Name := Advanced Shield Generator Mount Short Name := Adv Shield Mount Description := Increases shield strength by 300%. Reduces size of shield generator by 25%. Requires ship or base size of at least 150Kt. Code := Gx Cost Percent := 200 Tonnage Percent := 75 Tonnage Structure Percent := 100 Damage Percent := 0 Shield Percent := 300 Supply Percent := 0 Range Modifier := 0 Weapon To Hit Modifier := 0 Vehicle Size Minimum := 150 Comp Family Requirement := 11 Weapon Type Requirement := None Vehicle Type := Ship\Base Number of Tech Req := 5 Tech Area Req 1 := Shields Tech Level Req 1 := 6 Tech Area Req 2 := Physics Tech Level Req 2 := 3 Tech Area Req 3 := Advanced Military Science Tech Level Req 3 := 5 Tech Area Req 4 := Applied Research Tech Level Req 4 := 3 Tech Area Req 5 := Computers Tech Level Req 5 := 4 This is a steep 400+% increase in performance per kT, and it also cuts 1/3 off the cost per shield point, at the same time. So there is almost never a reason to not use this mount, so there is no tradeoff to decide about. My suggestion would be to make it actually cost more per shield point to use a mount like this, because of the massive shield/kT advantage - so you could get much stronger shields, or have more room to make a more powerful single ship with other components, but it would cost more. As it is, the main choice offered is when to try to get all the required research to achieve the mount - then always use it. PvK |
Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
Hmm, All the mounts after the 1st shield mount incorporate miniturization. All of them. In fact if you look closely you will see that. Each advanced mount space usage is based on the capabilities of the previous standard (Base Game's) mount sizes. Damage is increased with the idea that the advanced weapons mount in my mod increases the damage 25% to the base weapons and reducing their size 50% to simulate miniturization.
So to simulate Advanced weapons being incorporated into the other advanced mounts - I increased the damage by 50% over the standard base games mounts and reduced the size requirements for each level of mount. So a Advanced Large mount is 50% smaller than the Large mount. Does 50% more damage than the Large mount and uses 1/2 the supplies of the large mount, cost 50% more than the large mount and also has slightly increased range. Long Name := Large Ship Mount Short Name := Large Mount Description := Larger sized weapon mount which increases damage from the weapon by 2 times. Requires a vehicle size of at least 400kT. Can only be used on Direct Fire weapons. Code := L Cost Percent := 150 Tonnage Percent := 150 Tonnage Structure Percent := 200 Damage Percent := 200 Supply Percent := 200 Range Modifier := 0 Weapon To Hit Modifier := 0 Vehicle Size Minimum := 400 Weapon Type Requirement := Direct Fire Vehicle Type := Ship Long Name := Advanced Large Ship Mount Short Name := Adv Large Mount Description := Advanced weapon mount which increases damage from the weapon by 2 times. Increases the range of the weapon by 1. Requires a vehicle size of at least 400kT. Can only be used on Direct Fire weapons. Code := Lx Cost Percent := 200 Tonnage Percent := 100 Tonnage Structure Percent := 200 Damage Percent := 250 Supply Percent := 100 Range Modifier := 1 Weapon To Hit Modifier := 0 Vehicle Size Minimum := 400 Weapon Type Requirement := Direct Fire Vehicle Type := Ship Number of Tech Req := 4 Tech Area Req 1 := Physics Tech Level Req 1 := 2 Tech Area Req 2 := Advanced Military Science Tech Level Req 2 := 4 Tech Area Req 3 := Applied Research Tech Level Req 3 := 3 Tech Area Req 4 := Computers Tech Level Req 4 := 3 Long Name := Heavy Ship Mount Short Name := Heavy Mount Description := Heavy sized weapon mount which increases damage from the weapon by 3 times. Requires a vehicle size of at least 800kT. Can only be used on Direct Fire weapons. Code := H Cost Percent := 200 Tonnage Percent := 200 Tonnage Structure Percent := 300 Damage Percent := 300 Supply Percent := 300 Range Modifier := 0 Weapon To Hit Modifier := 0 Vehicle Size Minimum := 800 Weapon Type Requirement := Direct Fire Vehicle Type := Ship Long Name := Advanced Heavy Ship Mount Short Name := Adv Heavy Mount Description := Advanced weapon mount which increases damage from the weapon by 3 times. Increases the range of the weapon by 1. Requires a vehicle size of at least 800kT. Can only be used on Direct Fire weapons. Code := Hx Cost Percent := 250 Tonnage Percent := 150 Tonnage Structure Percent := 300 Damage Percent := 350 Supply Percent := 150 Range Modifier := 1 Weapon To Hit Modifier := 0 Vehicle Size Minimum := 800 Weapon Type Requirement := Direct Fire Vehicle Type := Ship Number of Tech Req := 4 Tech Area Req 1 := Physics Tech Level Req 1 := 2 Tech Area Req 2 := Advanced Military Science Tech Level Req 2 := 5 Tech Area Req 3 := Applied Research Tech Level Req 3 := 3 Tech Area Req 4 := Computers Tech Level Req 4 := 4 The cost thing I have already explained - you can cripple the AI if you make things too pricey. Standard warships are cranked out in 4-6 turns. With the mounts in this mod and with the current prices- that increased to 10 - 15 turns depending. So you have a more expensive components with more powerful capabilities but The trade off is cost and longer build time vs. more power. Tech- Computerized components has alot to do with miniturization. The more advanced computing becomes the smaller the targeting system, components, electronics etc.. can be. The idea being that advanced computerization all allows for more advanced electronics and allows for more compact designs. Understanding of Physics has alot to do with miniturization, capabilities, and power. An example of a real world issue -the problem with the Air Borne Laser on the 747, too big, special mounting and materials to withstand the tempatures, limited shots due to resupply issues. Applied research represents the next level of scientific research and development to achieve miniturization and design ships with these types of mounts. Advanced Military Science - kind fo self explanatory, however I think it is an under used tech branch that seemed perfect for mount technology. After playing a game for 114 turns using these mounts, I havent found any massive technological leaps in the game. I will continue to test with this concern in mind. I will be interested to see how you feel after using the mod. If you get the chance. [ September 03, 2002, 22:00: Message edited by: AJC ] |
Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
Regarding the 'trade off' issue of using the mount vs. not using the mount, this sort of jumped out of the Last message:
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In this way, the weapons still become say 400% better, but with a reload time of 2, they are actually (on average) 200% better. This might solve a few of the quandries posed. |
Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
Ya, it would be nice to be able to mod reload time in a mount, too. Although since some weapons components have different reload times, the degree of effect would be different depending on the base reload time.
AJC, I see. Your idea is that components should all get smaller and more powerful as technology in general advances, and in general players are expected to almost always use mounts once they achieve them, and to all try to develop these mounts. So, that makes sense now that I get the design intent. (I was looking at them from the perspective of a mod trying to add more choices and balanced tradeoffs, which is a different design intent.) PvK |
Re: Mount Mod for v1.78
yes !- thats exactly right - I didnt see much point in trying to reproduce DeathStalkers mount, he has everything I could ever think of plus the kitchen sink in his! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
I wanted something that gave improvements to existing components without modding a whole series of new components. I wanted to preserve the base game. DS took care of multiple choices in the manner your thinking. The only issue I have is some of the mounts are not really worth using, and the biggest for me was that the AI wont use all of them. In the mount window the list is overwhelming. Too many choices , and I usually love many choices. I was also interested in controlling what gets miniturized . Some of the components that I cannot rationally see being miniturized ; a bridge, crew qtrs, cargo bays, vehicle and unit launchers , ship yards, repair bays and colony modules. Some of the stellar manipulation components I did miniturize - however I felt that components that destroys planets , create planets/stars, create /destroy storms , create or destroy nebulas or any component that destroys star systems in any fashion should not be miniturized for game balance. [ September 04, 2002, 20:18: Message edited by: AJC ] |
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