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- - mQNP (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=8184)

Argh!
I shouldn't do math so fast without even checking if results are logic, of course that with 1 engine per 150 kt you can have a nice logical scale for all standard sizes but you will not be able to have really large ships, in an order of 10000 and above and make them move at decent speeds.
I also wanted to make normal motor have arond 10 standard movs, so more advandec engines could be sligtly better, not twice or three times better. A feature I cannot combine with QNM.

And yes this are limitations of normal QNM that should be possible to solve with thie monts aproximation.

[ January 08, 2003, 02:13: Message edited by: Andr&eacutes Lescano ]

Quote:

Originally posted by Andr&eacutes Lescano:
I also wanted to make normal motor have arond 10 standard movs, so more advandec engines could be sligtly better, not twice or three times better. A feature I cannot combine with QNM.

Then you want to use mQNP.

For example -- the P&N mod; I love it, but I hate basic QNP (big ships = too many clicks, argh!).

So I converted a local copy to mQNP; all the ships have 3epm. The Engines (which, ofc, I made MUCH larger) have 3 (ion), 4 (contra-terrene), 5 (jacketed photon), 6 (quantum), or 7 (gravitic) move points each.

A single Ion engine will move any ship at a speed of 1. So will a single Contra-terrene or JAcketed Photon engine; those advanced engines are only of use if you use more. Specifically:

... three Contra-terrene engines would push as much as four Ion drives. 25% drop in total engine mass to maintain the same speed.

... four Jacketed Photon drives would do the work of five Contra Terrene engines. 20% drop in total engine mass, for the same speed.

And so on.

Ao an mQNP system, qwith EPM>1, can give you just what you seem to be looking for.

Let's assume you want EMP of 5; start with the basic Ion engine giving 5 movement.

Next is the Contra-terrene engine. Give it 7 movement points.

Then the Jacketed Photon drive; give it 9 (notice we're counting by two's).

Quantum engine, 11 movement.

And so on.

...

Of you can get really oddball:

Ion 1 = 5mp
Ion 2 = 6mp
Ion 3 = 7mp

C-T 1 = 9mp
C-T 2 = 10mp
C-T 3 = 11mp

JPh 1 = 13mp
JPh 2 = 14mp
JPh 3 = 15mp

Qua 1 = 17mp
Qua 2 = 18mp
Qua 3 = 19mp

All ships have EPM = 5

Thus, even with in a single engine class, you start to get some benefits to speed, IF you have sufficient numbers of engines installed.

The balance between EPM and engine movement points, in all honesty, is an issue SEPERATE from mQNP ... mQNP satisfies the quasinewtonian aspect by adjusting engine mass directly.

Also, it's NOT an advantage for large ships. Supply USE goes up ... but not supply STORAGE (less and less of the engine, as a %, is represented by fuel tanks, if you will). An escort can get 5 engines and do fine, spending 50% of it's mass and having decent range,maybe with a single solar panel.

OTOH, a 1500kT Baseship consumes TEN TIMES as much fuel per move as the 150kT escort ... so while the 50% "free space" is also ten times larger, much of it will be filled with fuel tanks, AND/OR ... those baseships won't operate far from supply bases and/or ships (say, Medium and Large transports packed with Supply Bay components, or a Quantum Reactor ship ...).

So to an extent, the %-ship-mass used on engines-and-fuel-supply inherently goes up anyway ... but you can choose to make a short-range, more-heavily-armed ship if you wish (for self-defense purposes, for example).

[ January 08, 2003, 03:01: Message edited by: Pax ]

If you want even smaller improvements than the P&N ion = 3, CT = 4 jumps, then fiddle with the size of the engine components too.

Engine 1:
3 movement, 10kt = 0.3 per kt
engine 2:
3 movement, 9kt = 0.33 per kt
engine 3:
3 movement, 8kt = 0.375 per kt
engine 4:
4 movement, 10kt = 0.4 per KT

and so on.

Quote:

Originally posted by Pax:
Also, it's NOT an advantage for large ships. Supply USE goes up ... but not supply STORAGE (less and less of the engine, as a %, is represented by fuel tanks, if you will). An escort can get 5 engines and do fine, spending 50% of it's mass and having decent range,maybe with a single solar panel.

So the engine mount also affects the supply use per move? What figures did you use for that?

I can also make mounted LS and CQ for large ones in large ships.

Director: this one.

Long Name := Large Ship Mount
Short Name := Large Mount
Description := Larger sized weapon mount which increases damage from the weapon by 2 times. Requires a vehicle size of at least 400kT. Can only be used on Direct Fire weapons.
Code := L
Cost Percent := 150
Tonnage Percent := 150
Tonnage Structure Percent := 200
Damage Percent := 200
Supply Percent := 200
Range Modifier := 0
Weapon To Hit Modifier := 0
Vehicle Size Minimum := 400
Weapon Type Requirement := Direct Fire
Vehicle Type := Ship

Phoenix-D

Quote:

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Director: this one.

Long Name := Large Ship Mount
Short Name := Large Mount
Description := Larger sized weapon mount which increases damage from the weapon by 2 times. Requires a vehicle size of at least 400kT. Can only be used on Direct Fire weapons.
Code := L
Cost Percent := 150
Tonnage Percent := 150
Tonnage Structure Percent := 200
Damage Percent := 200
Supply Percent := 200
Range Modifier := 0
Weapon To Hit Modifier := 0
Vehicle Size Minimum := 400
Weapon Type Requirement := Direct Fire
Vehicle Type := Ship

Phoenix-D

I figured you modified the supply percent, but I was more interested in your scaling - i.e., say the engine is 100kT, and the escort mount has a structure percent value of 2. Are you also using a supply percent value of 2? And what is the "normal" engine supply usage set to? (standard, unmodded is 10; but if you're messing around with supply usage on each mount you probably had to set that higher so the mounts wouldn't reduce it to some weird fractional value).

Quote:

Originally posted by DirectorTsaarx:
So the engine mount also affects the supply use per move? What figures did you use for that?

Here, here's a pair of Engine mounts from Exodus; keep inmind the engines will be some 1,000kT in mass, prior to applying a mount:

<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Long Name := A Series Engine Mount
Short Name := A Series
Description := Engine mount for 100kT hulls
Code := A
Cost Percent := 1
Tonnage Percent := 1
Tonnage Structure Percent := 1
Damage Percent := 0
Supply Percent := 1
Range Modifier := 0
Weapon To Hit Modifier := 0
Vehicle Size Minimum := 100
Vehicle Size Maximum := 100
Comp Family Requirement :=
Weapon Type Requirement := none
Vehicle Type := Ship

Long Name := H Series Engine Mount
Short Name := H Series
Description := Engine mount for 1000kT hulls
Code := H
Cost Percent := 10
Tonnage Percent := 10
Tonnage Structure Percent := 10
Damage Percent := 0
Supply Percent := 10
Range Modifier := 0
Weapon To Hit Modifier := 0
Vehicle Size Minimum := 1000
Vehicle Size Maximum := 1000
Comp Family Requirement :=
Weapon Type Requirement := none
Vehicle Type := Ship</pre><hr /></blockquote>The A-series is (as labelled) for 100kT ships -- Exodus will place Escorts at that size. The H-series is a mount for much larger ships ... in fact, ships 10x larger than the Escort, at 1,000kT.

The A-series engine is 1% the base size, structure kT, and supply usage; the H series sets those at 10% ... ten times as much.

Fuel consumption, like engine mass overall, is directly tied to ship mass in a linear fashion. Figure, if you broke that 1000kT ship up into 10 seperate parts (each with an equal share of the total engien mass) ... why should fuel consumption improve, or get worse?

Twenty 100kT Escorts will burn exactly as much fuel per movement point expended, as two 1,000kT Cruiser ...or ten 200kT Frigates ... or one 2,000kT Dreadnought ... and so on.

IOW, to move 2,000kT of ship, one sector, at a given total speed ... will cost the same fuel, regardless of how many "packets" that 2,000kT of ship is divided up into.

However, unfortunately mounts do not allow me to adjust the amount of supplies STORED; an Escort can get away with relying on it's "sump" tanks, a Dreadnought can't. Essentially, as the engines get larger, the "fuel tank" aspect occupies a smaller and smaller percentage of the engine's total mass; more fuel tanks, or supply-generation components, or a combination of the two, will be required to move that big Dreadnought at any real speed (unles syou're satisfied with running it around on 0 supplies, at a speed of 1 and with no way to fire it's guns, forever ... heh).

Quote:

Originally posted by Andr&eacutes Lescano:
Argh!
I shouldn't do math so fast without even checking if results are logic, of course that with 1 engine per 150 kt you can have a nice logical scale for all standard sizes but you will not be able to have really large ships, in an order of 10000 and above and make them move at decent speeds.

Going back to this; actually you can.

For the P&N conVersion to mQNP, I set engine speed to be 500kT, and engine-mass::ship-mass at a 5% ratio. 500kT engines are EXACTLY 5% of a 10,000kT Battlemoon. I resized the Escort to 100kT (150kT is awkward for %-of-ship-mass issues, mQNP mods will likely NOT have ship sizes except in multiples of 100kT).

So the largest ship (a battlemoon) is 100x the size of the smallest ship (an escort).

Your shipsize range is limited by only that. If the escort gets a 1% mount, the biggest ship cannot be bigger than 100x that size.

... then again, it can. 8D That's where the split-class engine/mQNP "hybrid" comes in. If you want a 20,000kT engine, simply give IT a smallish % mount, give it a ludicrously huge engine, and set both the engines' movement points and the hull's EPM to ridiculously high levels.

IE, for the P&N conVersion I keep citing ... a 20,oookT "Super BAttlemoon" would need 1,000kT engines, to maintain the 5% ratio. Make the engines 20,000kT, and set the mount to ... drum roll 5%. EPM for the hull would be set to 30, and the "superhuge" engines woudl get 30, 40, 50, 60, and 70 movement each.

You physically cannot install the engine on anything smaller, yet you get the right mQNP ratio, and identical speed results per-engine.

Now, to prevent using it in smaller ships, you give it it's own Component Family #; normal ship-engien mounts don't affect the super-engines, the "SuperBattlemoon" mount affects only those engines, and is only available for ships massing 20,000kT.

And *poof* you've just jumped to a new scale of ship sizes, limited only by what the se4 executable can handle. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Separate Supply Storage to different components. Have engines store a minimal amount of supplies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif