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-   -   What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY! (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=16411)

Gandalf Parker October 18th, 2003 02:55 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Any game which has allowed gifting provinces/planets/colonies/outPosts has been abused by me big-time. Ive used it to manipulate wars between AIs or to abuse an AI as a buffer zone. I would put the reaction to province gifts as low as magic items, with a much higher reaction to gold and gems.

And adding time to alliances might be good. One thing that developed in the MP games was non-aggression pacts which had something like a 3-turn notice. If you gave the 3-turn notice before breaking the alliance then there were no extra consequences. Breaking an alliance without warning tended to have "global" consequences with the other players. Maybe that could be worked into the AI agreements also.

[ October 18, 2003, 13:59: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

-Storm- October 18th, 2003 03:29 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
And adding time to alliances might be good. One thing that developed in the MP games was non-aggression pacts which had something like a 3-turn notice. If you gave the 3-turn notice before breaking the alliance then there were no extra consequences. Breaking an alliance without warning tended to have "global" consequences with the other players. Maybe that could be worked into the AI agreements also.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, that is the way to stop abusing.

How can you abuse things, like giving provinces?
You mean you are giving a province to raise the relations, right? Well that is normal.
Never forget, that the AI will do it too, and maybe you will be gang banged by the AI. That is the wonderful part of diplomacy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PDF October 18th, 2003 04:46 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Aristoteles:
Ok so my diplo system idea is good than. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I don't know too much about diplo AI, but there must be some way to prevent the abusing.
Those global effects via diplo abusing sounds very cool. When the AI will detect that you are trying to double cross him with a fake alliance, and there will be big penalties for it, no one will abuse the diplo AI than. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I have another idea, maybe there should be a minimum time limit for alliances. Like for 10 turns you cannot cancel the alliance, and for additional 10 you cannot attack your former ally.

The AI must have a long memory, IE it must remember all major things, like alliances, wars, global spells, aggression, etc.

Items. Well the trading items is a very good part of the game, but you can abuse it. If it will be allowed to trade items, that must affect diplomacy.
All items must be categorized. Also only the "usable by everyone" items should be allowed to trade. Than we wont have a situation that the item is good good for "XY" but it is not good for "VZ". If you are giving away a good item, the relations will improve, if you are giving away a bad item, the relation points will decrease.
There is a more simple way, only allow "good, usable by everyone" items to trade.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're talking about AIs as if they were real beings ... Back to Earth, man, those are only lines of codes, and ALL AIs are and will be abused for at least 20 years more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

MStavros October 18th, 2003 05:05 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by PDF:
Back to Earth, man, those are only lines of codes, and ALL AIs are and will be abused for at least 20 years more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think so. Just think. If there will be options, like giving something to the AI, and it will raise the relation points between the 2 nations, that is ok. If you call that 'abuse', than what is your idea about diplomacy?
It is normal to use these ways to improve the relations.
Abusing means, that you are trying to cheat the AI.
We must list all possible abuse situations.

1. Improving the relations with the AI, to use him against others.

I think that this is normal. Everyone did this in the history.
BUT the other AIs must see these moves by the players, they must memorize it.
Example: You are trying to make an alliance with AI 1.
You are improving the relations with AI 1, and finally you are making an alliance with AI 1.
All of the other nations must react somehow: The AIs near your borders should try to make alliances as well, if it is possible. (example)

All little situations can be tweaked like this.
Just list more.

Taqwus October 18th, 2003 05:39 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
The "traditional" abuse in games that allow arbitrary gifting of territory is to give provinces in one AI's sphere of influence to a second AI, in order to start trouble between them. This works especially well if first AI (non-recipient) has some attachment to the province in question. A second form came up in GalCiv where a planet could change sides without war; namely, trading a planet for something while knowing that you'll get the planet back anyway.

Memories are important for diplomacy. Building a rapport over time should matter; e.g. you shouldn't be able to cancel the bad feeling from a recent war with a large gift immediately thereafter. Conversely, they should be readily destroyed given sufficient provocation; the friendlier you seemed beforehand, actually, the greater the perceived magnitude of betrayal. Enemies /expect/ things like hostile magic and assassinations, while doing an "alpha strike" on an ally would demolish that trust completely, provoke vast amounts of resentment, and make it harder to build rapports with anybody else for pretty much... forever, actually. And casus belli should matter as well; a war preceded by well-known provocations on both sides should hit global reputation less.

Endoperez October 18th, 2003 06:47 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
I think game should be keeping track how many times you have cheated AI or broken an alliance. Everybody would see them, and everyone would react to them. Maybe exponential increase in the effect after more bad things are made. Ideally, this would effect most powerful to the AI you acted against, more than normal to his allies, and less than normal to those that are in war against him. This would need much bookkiining, so having same effect to all nations would be enough.
'Cheating' I mentioned before, is assasinations with Gateway/CoWild/Wind attacks/sneaky forces which destroy big armies, MW or FFtS, and global enchantments harmful to all others.
Too much power should maybe lower relationships with all nations, or make them harder to rise, because you can more easily destroy them and they are REALLY nervous. Heck, they want to be like Zeus, over-god of his pantheon, not like Hermes, his postman.

Please, someone, speculate how would things go bad with this thing; how would you abuse this.

Oh, and I think there should be no 'you are a heretic, but you can go through my lands'. And, it shouldn't be possible to give away provinces. Atleast not those in which people don't believe to the pretender you are giving the province. This is simply because even if you had no armies in there, other player would have to conquer the province, because the people would not want to change sides.

I hope this makes sense to someone,

and please forgive me for editing these Posts all the time. It seems I cannot force myself to press that Preview msg button... Lazy me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ October 18, 2003, 17:58: Message edited by: Endoperez ]

DominionsFan October 18th, 2003 10:37 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Plz consider to add SP diplomacy, I really missed it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

The guys here had posted very good ideas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Mortifer October 21st, 2003 10:07 AM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
All right I think we had nice ideas so far, maybe trading items should be restricted, I agree.

If the AI can be scripted to have long memory, than the abuse problem will be solved.
If it will 'remember' everything, what the player did, than we won't have problems.
It must be tweaked perfectly, and that will be the hardest part of it.
[How will the AI react in various situations, like getting a province as a gift, etc.]

MStavros October 21st, 2003 11:49 AM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
I wonder...the devs liked these suggestions/ideas? Any comments from IW? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Pocus October 21st, 2003 12:46 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Mortifer:
All right I think we had nice ideas so far, maybe trading items should be restricted, I agree.

If the AI can be scripted to have long memory, than the abuse problem will be solved.
If it will 'remember' everything, what the player did, than we won't have problems.
It must be tweaked perfectly, and that will be the hardest part of it.
[How will the AI react in various situations, like getting a province as a gift, etc.]
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not necessarly a big problem IMO, thats the kind of parameters which ought to be externalized in a text file. The devs should be confident that in a matter of weeks the fan community will have found what is the best tweaking to be done (just check the awesome mods made for Hearts of Iron - some asked for hundred of hours).

HJ October 21st, 2003 06:26 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Lots of good ideas proposed so far.
I just wanted to add one thing that I wouldn't like to see in possible diplo system, and that is ganging up on human player. This has been implemented in more games than I care to remember, and it invariably ruins a good portion of gaming sessions for me. I mean, if I transgress, such as declare war to everybody or break a dozen alliances, then ok. But NOT, please not, just because my only sin is that my domain happens to be of a certain size, and then everybody declares war just for the heck of it. That's just lame, and a big party breaker for me. It equates to the AI cheating: I want to be on same terms as far as the game is concerned.

-Storm- October 22nd, 2003 01:30 AM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Pocus:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Mortifer:
All right I think we had nice ideas so far, maybe trading items should be restricted, I agree.

If the AI can be scripted to have long memory, than the abuse problem will be solved.
If it will 'remember' everything, what the player did, than we won't have problems.
It must be tweaked perfectly, and that will be the hardest part of it.
[How will the AI react in various situations, like getting a province as a gift, etc.]
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not necessarly a big problem IMO, thats the kind of parameters which ought to be externalized in a text file. The devs should be confident that in a matter of weeks the fan community will have found what is the best tweaking to be done (just check the awesome mods made for Hearts of Iron - some asked for hundred of hours). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, this must be added very carefully, but I think 10/8 players will agree that the diplomacy is another must have in SP.

Mortifer October 22nd, 2003 11:13 AM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
I think the most important thing is the 'relation points system'. There must be many ways to increase/decrease the points with a nation. All things must effect the relations between the nations. Aside this the AI's long memory is the second key for a very good diplo AI/system. The AI must remember everything, and there must be certain cases, when you won't be able to raise the relation points anymore above a specific limit. Example: a sneak attack on the AI, when you had good relations with it. Also these happenings must have global consequences. All AI must react somehow.

[ October 22, 2003, 10:13: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

MStavros October 22nd, 2003 02:13 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Well correct me if I am wrong, but scripting this diplo AI will be very hard. However it is a must have in SP, so do not give up please.

Gandalf Parker October 22nd, 2003 02:39 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by MStavros:
Well correct me if I am wrong, but scripting this diplo AI will be very hard. However it is a must have in SP, so do not give up please.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are different levels. Something that would require adding another menu to the game would take a long time. Something that recognizes things happening in the game and +/- a formula somewhere would be much easier to put in. Such as... if I give an AI money or gems (which I can already do) can I get a plus to my standing with them (which is a formula already in the game?)

Mortifer October 22nd, 2003 03:46 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
The hard part will be the balancing / tweaking of the AI and the AI - player reactions. I guess it is not impossible but surely it will take some time to add.
I agree that this is a must have in SP, but we must be very patient. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Pocus October 22nd, 2003 06:16 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Mortifer:

I agree that this is a must have in SP, but we must be very patient. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">mmmh, are we? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Aristoteles October 22nd, 2003 08:59 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Pocus:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Mortifer:

I agree that this is a must have in SP, but we must be very patient. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">mmmh, are we? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not me! I want to see diplomacy in the retail Version! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Well that would be awesome..ok ok I will be patient too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

-Storm- October 23rd, 2003 09:13 AM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
We must be very patient. IW is propably working very hard on the mod tools, and on the first patch right now.

Zerger October 26th, 2003 06:03 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
I guess, singleplayer diplomacy won't be added ever. Iw don't like the idea of SP diplomacy, and if they don't like it, you can say what you want.

Particle October 26th, 2003 10:17 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Zerger:
I guess, singleplayer diplomacy won't be added ever. Iw don't like the idea of SP diplomacy, and if they don't like it, you can say what you want.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sad but I tend to agree with you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

+ IW: They are interacting with their fans
- IW: They won't listen, if they don't like something.

Kristoffer O October 26th, 2003 11:56 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Actually I am intrigued by SP diplomacy, but I'm not sure that we can do it in a satisfying way.

Kristoffer O October 26th, 2003 11:57 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
And yes, we do listen, but we do not always act on what we hear. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Pocus October 27th, 2003 09:17 AM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by -Storm-:
We must be very patient. IW is propably working very hard on the mod tools, and on the first patch right now.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ahah, you are lured you too, as all of us. The 3 of IW are in the Bahamas right now. The replies you get from them in the forum are made by the dom AI on impossible.

MStavros October 27th, 2003 11:42 AM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Actually I am intrigued by SP diplomacy, but I'm not sure that we can do it in a satisfying way.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes you can. Don't drop this idea.

Kristoffer O October 28th, 2003 02:55 AM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by MStavros:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Actually I am intrigued by SP diplomacy, but I'm not sure that we can do it in a satisfying way.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes you can. Don't drop this idea. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thank you for keeping faith in us. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Gandalf Parker October 29th, 2003 03:58 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Actually I am intrigued by SP diplomacy, but I'm not sure that we can do it in a satisfying way.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For a full menu Version I can see a long wait. How about some small steps?

Can I get added a friendship boost with an AI by giving it gifts? I understand the problems with magic items but I dont think gold/gems can be abused so maybe they could count for more. Not sure what forumula the AI works with for deciding to attack me or not but if there is a variable there which represents MY race then maybe some pluses wont mess things up much.

Kristoffer O October 29th, 2003 04:09 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by -Storm-:
Always. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I hope that the strategic AI & Diplomacy are the first things on your list Kris. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Apart from moddability, quicker battle replays, better demo SP UI, other colours in unit display, bug fixes, castle battle results and balance changes that limits the impact of supercombatants? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Actually there are lots of things that people want. I barely remember half of them anymore. Most urgent will be dealt with first (suspected bugs).

It might be a good idea if someone summed up problems and issues (without judging what is important and not - we do not want personal opinions on MP/SP focus or whether diplomacy or modding is most important - that is for the forum discussions).

st.patrik October 29th, 2003 04:53 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by -Storm-:
Always. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I hope that the strategic AI & Diplomacy are the first things on your list Kris. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Apart from moddability, quicker battle replays, better demo SP UI, other colours in unit display, bug fixes, castle battle results and balance changes that limits the impact of supercombatants? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Actually there are lots of things that people want. I barely remember half of them anymore. Most urgent will be dealt with first (suspected bugs).

It might be a good idea if someone summed up problems and issues (without judging what is important and not - we do not want personal opinions on MP/SP focus or whether diplomacy or modding is most important - that is for the forum discussions). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your wish is my command. Here's a trial list of things that have been mentioned (in no particular order):

• strategic AI
• SP diplomacy
• increased battle replay functionality (various speeds, etc.)
• castle battle results
• more than one god for each nation
• darker colours/textures in unit displays
• newbie demo 'get started' stuff
• bug fixes
• moddability
• alignment of stats in unit info screens

anything I'm missing?

thought: we should probably make this its own thread...

MStavros October 29th, 2003 04:54 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Hehe. It is always good, if you have to do something. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Anyways, I guess the most important things are: fixing bugs, upgrading the strategic AI, mod tools and diplomacy.

st.patrik October 29th, 2003 05:07 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
I made a new topic for the list. If there is anything important that I missed please post it here. Thanks.

Mortifer October 29th, 2003 07:07 PM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Sure patrik, this is a diplomacy thread originally. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

-Storm- October 30th, 2003 02:25 AM
Re: What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY!
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by MStavros:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Actually I am intrigued by SP diplomacy, but I'm not sure that we can do it in a satisfying way.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes you can. Don't drop this idea. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thank you for keeping faith in us. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Always. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I hope that the strategic AI & Diplomacy are the first things on your list Kris. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ October 29, 2003, 12:25: Message edited by: -Storm- ]


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