Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

The AI won't be better with these scripts. All they do is that you will have a harder start.
Still it can help until the AI is being fixed.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with most of what you said. Pre-scripting the AI conditions is pretty much the same as giving the AI the ability to cheat. So, for example that on impossible difficulty the AI gets free units, etc. This is what most of the games do to increrase difficulty, from RTS onwards, but this is not really what most people were saying that they want in this thread. Beside, one of the big pluses in Doms II is that you can start the same map many times over and have a vastly different game due to other factors being fairly randomized, such as starting locations, richness, sites, etc. Hardcoded scenarios are not really a solution in terms of replay possibilities (one of the greatest strengths of this game, IMHO).

The thing where I don't agree is that externalizing the AI input would solve the problem. I would much prefer it to be done in the vanilla game than to have mods to do it. Maybe it's just me, as I never found mods to be attractive: there are always things that I don't agree with in them, and I don't feel compelled to accept that in the same way I think about the vanilla game, so I never play them. That's not to say that mods wouldn't help input-wise, as people could have more exact suggestions to give to the devs, but I would like nothing better than to see it improved in the actual vanilla (patched) game.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well my case for letting the mods at it wasn't to ignore the vanilla game, but to allow the devs to let the modders do alot of the work for them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I am all for a 'Gold Standard' in the Vanilla game, I just think you'll reach a better one faster if you have several people able to change parameters than only a few, even if those few are the only ones who really matter http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (sucking up to the devs can't hurt right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Its easier for the devs if people can tell them that by changing the ratio of HI to LI, or the amount of resources earmarked for mages by some number has this effect, rather than the Devs having to make a change, see what everyone thinks, then go back and tweek it again. Besides don't write off mods too quickly, while there is a need for greater consensus for the MP crowd, the SPers are free to dabble and use whatever strikes their fancy, most serious mods have enough details to let a new user know ahead of time whether its worth their down load or not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In that case I agree completely with your previous post. As I already said, input-wise role is indeed very desirable, it would then be something more like an open beta for the AI. If nothing else, it would speed up the process of improving the AI for the patches, and make it easier for the devs by giving them time to implement other things while people are dabbling with the AI, as they would just test the suggestions to see whether they'll implement them or not.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Hm yeah good idea. I know some games, where you can script AIs.

Btw, why no answer from the devs about the strategic AI problems? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

What are you talking about DominionsFAN? KO posted in this thread less than 3 days ago.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Also, IW has asked for save files showing flagrant AI mistakes. What kind of 'answers' are you asking for anyway? I certianly hope it's not these

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Apart from this post bordering on offensive (It's not up to you to decide Illwinter's priorities), this is from 2 days ago!! What do you think will have happened since then??!

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

The most important way to improve the AI is to give the AI different personalities since it cannot improve its game strategy as humans can.

Otherwise no matter how sophisticated an AI opponent is created... gamers will soon find weaknesses or exploits which turns the AI pathetic. IF random personalities were given to each AI opponent at the start of each game then human players will be uncertain as to what weaknesses are currently exist for each opponent.

The only other solution would be to provide a MOD which would allow gamers/map makers to improve the AI using script commands.

[ November 05, 2003, 14:00: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Warlods III + Darklord's Rising. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I'd like to see different AI personalities, too, but for now I'd prefer a stable and challenging default one, myself.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

but they could change their "personalities" mid-game though?

if so, impressive....

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Please name one game where the AI is able to do such a thing, or come even close to that. . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In Galactic Civilisations, the opponents have different AI personalities...

Or is this more a question if the AI can switch strategies midgame, depending on the changing situation?

von Schmidt

von Schmidt

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Let me add: "Depending on the situation" after your question. That is what was asked for Dominions. (That is the same for you Von Schmidt) Games with "personalities" exist, the problem being to script for a single person a working AI able to anticipate and outsmart the player (that is, able to change its tactics and priority, or personality, during the game, depending on what is going on), and even without using plain cheating. (Say, omniscient AIs)

I never liked Warlords myself, but this AI is said to be good. Then you are right, it comes close to what was asked, with a less complex game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am pretty sure if an incident where an "Expansionist" became a "Razer" type of personality, burning down the cities down and pressing onward, rather than trying to hold them, which was the behaviour I expected from an "Expansionist". (The names are made up now, it's been a long time since I played Warlords, but you'll get the essence.)

Anyway, that's all cool, but let's talk about different personalities and changing them when there's a good one to build upon.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Let me add: "Depending on the situation" after your question. That is what was asked for Dominions. (That is the same for you Von Schmidt) Games with "personalities" exist, the problem being to script for a single person a working AI able to anticipate and outsmart the player (that is, able to change its tactics and priority, or personality, during the game, depending on what is going on), and even without using plain cheating. (Say, omniscient AIs)

I never liked Warlords myself, but this AI is said to be good. Then you are right, it comes close to what was asked, with a less complex game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes Dominions is more complex, but script these AIs are not impossible, but it will require time.

I don't think that we need different personalities. An upgraded AI, yes.


1. The AI is massing weak troops
2. The AI wont protect his pretender/commanders/priests/mages
3. The AI wont build forts
4. The AI's battlefield tactics could be better
5. The AI is making very odd things. IE. wandering around with his pretender alone etc.
6. The AI won't stay in a province, it is always moving his armies.
7. The AI won't make complex strategic maneuvers. IE. Making a focused attack against a province.
8. The AI won't equip his supercombatants..at least I've never seen that in the demo.


Upgrading/fixing/enchancing these won't require different personalities. A core AI [like the current Doms 2 AI] could do it, if the scripts will be tweaked.

[ November 05, 2003, 13:51: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

MStavros ....

A 'single' upgraded AI for all computer opponents will not work in the long-term because gamers will eventually find flaws/exploits/weaknesses. These will eventually be posted and the developers can't patch the game forever! If human players don't know what to expect from AI opponents because of different personalities the game will be more challenging.

The only other option would be to allow gamers/map_makers a mod tool for adjusting/improving AI strategies.


_____________________________________
edit: adding story
_____________________________________

EXAMPLE of Dominions_II with a 'single' AI personality:

Experienced Gamer vs AI:
So here's today's story if anyone is still playing the game as single players. I brought my 400 troops to his Last fortress while small armies sat on the borders since we all know the AI throws 90% of its men into the fortress when the pretender god is threatened. Next turn walked in and killed him... time to move on.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EXAMPLE of Dominions_II using a randomly selected AI personality out of 10 others:

Experienced Gamer vs AI:

Hello everyone again... today the AI really caught me by surprise since I believed him to have the Arch-Mage personality... fudge was I wrong! As I blindly marched my 400 troops to finish off his pretender god there was 3 strong assassin armies that came out of hiding and stole two territories right next to my fortress. With both our pretender gods surrounded it looks like both of them will be dying. Yikes!

[ November 05, 2003, 14:34: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Jedi...what about: do not use exploits. You will cheat yourself, not just the AI.
The suggestion is good, but it would take huge amount of time to script IMHO. Upgrading the AI itself will be a hard task as well, but of course a must have.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

I don't think 'personalities' are that hard to do, nor to switch during the game. In fact earlier in this thread I explained one way to approch it with the externalized AI parameters (MoO3 did this, and it actually worked, though MoO3 had other problems...)

The scripting of the personalities isn't even that difficult if you don't try to get too fancy with it. The personalities are basicly templates that provide the AI with %s of resources to spend on commanders, army and magic. Within those two broad catagories there are several subcatagories. For army its balance of light troops, medium troops, heavy troops, and summons of those classes (you can break out archers and support as well), for magic its what schools to research (for particualr spells) based on your existing ability to use the schools, and how much do devote to research v. summoning (tied to army) v. other spell (direct damage, search, overland...), for commanders its what ratio of Mages to priests to assasins/scouts to infantry/cavalry leaders...

There are alot of matricies to be made, and there are alot of values to add in, and there are even alot of interdependancies between the matricies, but once you've mapped that out, the actually application is easy. Then its up to the devs and players to tweek and mod to find what values work best for what races.

Kris has mentioned (elsewhere) that he thinks its an interesting idea, but he's not sure how much of it can be easilly done given the existing Dom2 code. I know they are taking this seriously, but it is a very tricky thing to do, especially since the Dom2 code wasn't first written with this in mind. Anyway, keep up the suggestions, and try to be more specific then general, there's been enough generalities over the Last few weeks to kill a horse http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

I think this might be the best direction to go. Multiple personalities written by the programmers is probably a faster action than externalized scripting for Users. Possibly even faster than improving the AI thinking of the game in general.

One big advantage is that the "wrong decisions" of the AI player can be minimalized by not allowing it to go too far in a particular direction. And the challenge can be improved by having the AI player change its tactics even if the tactics it switches to is not a particularly good one.

In this situation even a bad tactic has an advantage of being a surprise. Such as, Arcos might be given a preference for using the "build a mage then spend the rest on elite troops" style. The "buy lots of cheap units and rush outward until they are all dead" strategy would be bad for them. However, pursuing the mage-research thing wouldnt be good to do TOO much of and having a 5-turn run of barbarian horde tactics can be a good thing for them to do occasionally. On the other hand Ermor might be better with a preference for horde and an ocassional mage/research shift.

So the disadvantages of any strategy can be lessened by shfting to another for short periods without having to try and come up with perfect smart decision-making for the AI. Probably not what you wanted this to do. I know it can be done better. Im just pointing out a possible advantage.

[ November 05, 2003, 17:11: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

I agree with you Gandalf, though I'm not sure that randomly swapping strategies is the best way to go. I think that there can be a rubric by which the AI can decide if a certain strategy is more needed at a certain time. An example of this would be in the early game, where expansion is key, basically you'd want all AIs to be expanders (though their means of expantion could differ) until they reach boarders of other nations. At that point you have a decision point, do I aggressively attack my neighbor(s), do I hunker down and focus on research or summoning, or building an elite force, do I ignore my neighbor and continue picking up indies, ...

The decision made *should* be able to be influanced by looking at the current compostion of the AIs nation. If the nation is filled with poor provinces more wieght to an early offensive, if the nation has rich provinces, more weight to building up a superior force, if the nation has high gem income, or lots of indie mages them more weight to going down a magic path.

This is another area where externalizing the inputs to make these decisions would be useful so that modders can tweek them to get more aggressive AIs for various nations. Different nation need different weights for these decisions to start with (and the use of SCs should be in there too somewhere...).

I think these discussions are getting more useful all the time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Lets keep working on specifics, the Devs have asked for that time and time again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Humzzz I like the idea as well, the question is: this can be added to Doms II.? The AI will be really better or just more diverse?
IMHO the key is, that the AI must be lot more effective. It will be more effective this way?
Frankly I have no idea.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think it would definetly be more effective. Many of the things on the list of AI suggestions seem to be that the AI does too much or not enough of something. With a system like this it can be gauranteed to change that. Maybe not to the perfect level but at least not completely not happening. With so many different races and different game paramters Im not sure it would ever be possible to achieve a smart AI.

Rule #1 of AI programming. If you cant beat them, cheat.

Rule #2 of AI programming. If you cant be smart, be random.

Rule #3 of AI programming. If you cant please the Users with #1 and #2 then declare the AI to be for tutorial purposes only toward the MP part of the game, and give up.

(HEY! calm down. Im only half serious)

[ November 05, 2003, 20:08: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

I still say that tweaking the main AI would be the best, but I am not sure..I mean these AI personalities sounds good and all, but I think this won't be added. Well not now..maybe not at all. I guess that would take countless time to script, and the success is not sure.
However...if that would boost the brain of the AI.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ November 05, 2003, 20:21: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well the personalities may not make it becasue its too hard to redo the code to fit them, but if certain things can be easilly tweeked by the devs, or externalized then it would be a fairly simple process I think. I'm not sure you'd want to call the personalities scripts either, that doesn't seem the most accurate way to look at them. Though you could do it that way, just that I don't think it would be very elegant. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Anyway, when you say tweeking the main AI what do you mean exactly? and how would you do it? I think that the personalities or externalized paramaters are tweeks to the main AI. Though I also feel that each nation (and even each theme for a nation) should have it's own AI. Of course if you do this via a series of matricies its not that hard, though it is potentially alot of matricies...

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thats part of the problem I see. Just for troops it would be a huge matrix. For each race there are different units, plus all the independents, plus different situations such as small game, large game, low resource, high magic, independent strength, which opponent.

Ive helped program an AI for a MUD. Using a programmable client to create a player on the MUD we programmed it into what people thought was a pretty amazing robot "player". The bot program was as large and used as much CPU as the MUD program itself. Luckily by running from a completely different computer as a player that wasnt a problem. Im afraid that trying to create so many different smart AIs (I mean the improve AI code, not the personalities project) would make the game 20 times bigger.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

It is alot of matricies theoretically. Someone smarter than I am can probably figure out a way to crunch them down. But they are just text files, not that big. For any given game, only a few are needed anyway, unless you are playing with all 17 nations, but even then only 16 are needed.

Sure you need to have made the others, but as far as which are used during a given game, its not that many.

Anyway, it is probably possible to make only a few matricies for army composition, or magic research... and then have a few operators for different nations, or different personalities that modify them. Once the game has started the modified (temporary) matrix is the only one used anyway. The .mob file from MoO3 was pretty big if I remember correctly (the file that stored all the matricies), but once you 'extracted' it you had a series of text files in a series of folders that you could easily open and edit in excel or even word pad. I mean it adds more size to the game, but I don't think it requires more processing power. And I don't think it would add more than 20MB in a worst case anyway.

I guess I don't quite see how this is comparable to a bot.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Bah, I didn't want to do this but I'll try... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Do you remember linear algebra? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif (I do and wish I didn't but that's beside the point)

So you have a matrix of units with weights and it looks like this:

Unit Weight
Militia 10%
LI 10%
MI 40%
HI 25%
X-bow 15%

Then you chose a rapid expander type personality and the matrix gets multiplied by:

(.5
1.5
2
0
1)
And then it gets normalized to 100%...

You further have a SC pretender so that multiplies the matrix by:
(.5
.5
3
1
1)
And it gets normalized again...

Anyway, you have a large matrix for unit type, then you have these operators (if that's the right term) for different conditions, like personality, like theme, like nation that multiply the values in the big matrix.

Actually if you did it this way you could have one huge list of all units, multiplied by national operators (to zero out the unallowed units), multiplied by theme and personality operators, multiplied by exisiting indie units (to put back in desired indie units when you get them), multiplied by...

Do you see it now? Its not that difficult to set up, it is difficult to balance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The size of these files is tiny, though there may be 100 of them. The tricky part then comes in how you set up your algorythem for which operators are applied to your specified matricies. But again, that's not difficult to concieve how you set up those algorythems, its just difficult to balance... that's where the want to externalize all this comes from, let the players who want to fiddle fiddle, eventually people will arrive at settings that work 'best' and the devs can chose to use them for the vanilla game or not.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Aristoteles and Particle...

Actually multiple AI personalities shouldn't take that long to program since for the most part just variables would have to be adjusted such as percentages regarding research, ritual spells, crafting items, etc... Also percentages regarding the use of gold for purchasing of assassins, spellcasters, priests, buildings, mercenaries, province defense, or something else...
Another would be percentages regarding how aggressive, defensive, productive, or (other actions I may miss)...


Once the formula for each is in place the developers should be able to create at least 10 very different personalities.

Another very important feature about this is if one of them has a flaw it won't destroy the game as computer opponents are randomly assigned the personalities before each game.
Whereas if only one AI personality exists and a major flaw/weakness appears gamers have to suffer until the next patch. Let me say again that a single AI can easily be mastered by gamers... multiple unknown personalities will leave gamers guessing as how the AI opponent will behave.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually I never do... however during multiplayer games you can't always trust opponents across the internet. That is why I wrote what I did.

[ November 05, 2003, 22:41: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Different personalities? Maybe...but it would be effective, if the AI itself could change the various personalities in-game, depending on the situation.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Please name one game where the AI is able to do such a thing, or come even close to that. And especially a game as rich and complex than Dominions. (I believe it would be easier for a RTS) Or say how you would do that. You would need an AI able to spy on the human player and then it would have to process that knowledge to find the weaknesses in the human army/provinces/pretender/add as needed, for afterwards change its strategy to take that data into account. And you would have to prevent the player from cheating the AI that way as well.
Lastly, how a single AI scripter is supposed to implement such an AI for Dominions? (Assuming you do have someone who only works on the AI)

I would like different personalities for the AI, as this idea would be much more doable. Maybe it could even be a field in which players could make their tweaks as well.

[ November 05, 2003, 12:33: Message edited by: Alneyan ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

we have had it in a couple of movies before....Matrix.....oh, and Terminator....

would be the perfect blend of a sci-fi AI with a fantasy tbs strategy game....

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Aha. I love this personalities idea. Hopefully the devs will find it good as well.
Randomly assigning it before the game for the AIs?
I have a question. Is there a way to give multiple personalities to the AI than? I mean for one nation? Because THAT would be the best.
Different situations IE. war, research etc. -> different AI personality in use.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually I never do... however during multiplayer games you can't always trust opponents across the internet. That is why I wrote what I did. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, but what AI personalities are you talking about?
Can you make a list of examples?

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Nice breakdown. As far as choice of targets there would also be AIs who would always choose to target the WEAKEST pretender, magic, units, etc. Especially if they are a neighbor. Of course thats kindof how it does it now but with a list of AIs those should be included.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hm nice ideas here. But still I think this would really work, if the AI would change these in the game, as someone has mentioned. Do you think that it is possible?

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

[much that isnt necessary to read again snipped here] *hint hint*

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ive done programming like that before and the switching actually seems the least difficult. The biggest question that I would have is.... does the game programming seperate the AIs at all? The way the game runs now I see a strong possibility that the AI might be one long code string that does alot of common stuff first and then branches off (maybe) for things that apply only to particular nations. If its written with the basic AI code duplicated to each nation and then small modificatons done, then going to scripted AIs would be much easier. Thats not normal coding practices though so our chances are slim for that advantage.

[ November 06, 2003, 16:36: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good question. Maybe JK knows the answer. The question is: We will know it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Eh, chances that the AI will ever have different personalities are slim, chances for the AI to change personalities during the game are even slimmer.

Any AI improvements are likely to be solutions to specific problems, not improvements on the scale an adapting multi personality AI is.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I thought so. Just update these and we will be fine:

1. The AI is massing weak troops
2. The AI wont protect his pretender/commanders/priests/mages
3. The AI wont build forts
4. The AI's battlefield tactics could be better
5. The AI is making very odd things. IE. wandering around with his pretender alone etc.
6. The AI won't stay in a province, it is always moving his armies.
7. The AI won't make complex strategic maneuvers. IE. Making a focused attack against a province.
8. The AI won't equip his supercombatants..at least I've never seen that in the demo.


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Example=
Destroyer(Pillages lands which have been owned by opponents for long periods of time)
Architect(focuses on improving lands)
Arch-Mage(focuses on magic)
Barbarian(mainly uses brute force)
Insanity(unpredictable actions= randomly flips between all personalities every 10 turns)
Cutthroat(one out of three armies will be sneaking during movement)


With all the different levels of magic, game features and type of units... 10 very different personalities shouldn't be too difficult. If gamers could also modify these percentages with a mod tool... I'm sure we would see lots of very different ones created.


____________________________________

* On a side note:
Most of the AI personalities should be designed to attack the most powerful pretender god. One persoanlity may attack the player with the strongest domain while another may attack a player with the most research and so on. I've played lots of games where once some human player became the most powerful the remaining AI opponents would fight amongst themselves instead of joining forces.

[ November 06, 2003, 12:23: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I understand it's probably too late in the games programming design for multiple personalities to be added. It's too bad really because gamers will eventually master this one default Artificial_Intelligence. I can only recommend that Dominions_III have the multiple personalities for AI opponents.

[ November 07, 2003, 03:11: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I thought so. Just update these and we will be fine:

1. The AI is massing weak troops
2. The AI wont protect his pretender/commanders/priests/mages
3. The AI wont build forts
4. The AI's battlefield tactics could be better
5. The AI is making very odd things. IE. wandering around with his pretender alone etc.
6. The AI won't stay in a province, it is always moving his armies.
7. The AI won't make complex strategic maneuvers. IE. Making a focused attack against a province.
8. The AI won't equip his supercombatants..at least I've never seen that in the demo.


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">All I have to say....I agree. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This was predicatble, and I agree with johan. I guess this would be hella lot of work to add. I think we can live without this in Doms II.
Maybe if the Users/players would be allowed to script AIs......they could try.
Otherwise, just upgrade those weak points in the mentioned list, step by step.
If all of those will be enchanced, the AI will rock some you know what. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dont worry. Im sure that the efforts to keep an un-pinned thread locked near the top of the board by the same maybe-different people saying the same things or reposting the whole list has SURELY accomplished its mission. It makes it seem almost as key a discussion as the pinned polls and neutral master lists. Good job.

[ November 07, 2003, 14:54: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dont worry. Im sure that the efforts to keep an un-pinned thread locked near the top of the board by the same maybe-different people saying the same things or reposting the whole list has SURELY accomplished its mission. It makes it seem almost as key a discussion as the pinned polls and neutral master lists. Good job. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think, that the "AI problems" 'was?' a very important discussion on the board. I am happy that it turned out to something good. In the beginning most players were just bashing the AI without any constructive opinion. Day by day we had better and better suggestions/ideas, and now we are here...near the end of the road.

I guess it is up to the devs to do what they can.
I am sure that they will try their best. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ November 07, 2003, 15:01: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't know the code but such rough Category of personalities doesn't seem to be too impossible.
1) Destroyer: give the AI an option to pillage a province unless it's around the capital. Adjust the probability of how often this happened and you'd get it. This particular AI is not likely to win unless he is using dead Ermor or Carrion Wood of Pangaea. But he could be around to be a spoiler for everybody.

2) Architect: hmm... there isn't much to improve on the land other than building castles.

3) Mage or Barbarian: if there were a matrix of the AI's preference over different units, the difference would be a simple tweaking of numbers. Though such a matrix itself may not be easy to implement, because of the large number of possible units in the game.

4) Cutthroat: the AI doesn't use stealth troops particularly well. It might be hard to implement.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Its beginning to look as though the AI is too linear in its programming to make seperate personalities likely. Its probably one line line of instructions with some IF comments allowing for the different nations. Splitting all of that out into sperate AI files would be on the level of being a good reason for Dominions 3. The devs seem to be back to asking for specific fixes. When should an AI build a castle. When should they build a temple. When should they buy hvy troops.

However..... the seperate AIs we are talking about might be created by themes? Does a computer player use themes? I have to fall back on Dom1 experience but if Pangaea is told to build hvy units then they will lose their sneak ability with that army. Building an IF PANGAEA into the AI code might help but there is a line of play for Pangaea which does use those units.

What if a theme removed those hvy units? And maybe added an assassin? If the AI used that theme then would you have a computer player that would use those things halfway effectively?

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

I think some games separated AI personalities, but I dunno what games. Civ3? Frankly I don't remember. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course it can be done. And its generally agreed that it would have some benefits. But if the AI was straight coded instead of seperate for each AI then breaking it out would be a major product upgrade. Since solo-play isnt a major part of the game it would be an unlikely project.

That means that lesser fixes should be discussed so that something can be done.

-- The word "impossible" is a term used by technicians which translates as "I COULD do it but it would take more time and effort than its worth."

[ November 07, 2003, 21:55: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

One small quibble http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Why do you assert that 'solo play isn't a major part of the game'?

The devs have said that they made Dom primarilly to be an MP game, but the number of people playing the game are likely to play more SP than MP, whatever it is that they would prefer to play.

So I would assert that 'solo play *is* a major part of the game' just that the devs may not desire to make upgrades to it as much as they desire to make upgrades to MP. Though outside of balance and bugs, there arn't that many upgrades to MP that are seemingly *that* important http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Once again I agree, but it would be nice if we could stop this kind of arguments altogether. Either make the game completely MP, or completely SP, or there is no basis to say that one is more important than the other, and that one should receive less attention and suffer on account of the other.

Re: Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.
 

Yes SP is a major part of Doms II., that is for sure now.
Still I guess the devs won't be bothered by such coding like multiple AI personalities. I guess that would be countless hours to script and add.
MAYBE in the distant future, they will work on it, but maybe the AI can be upgraded a more simple way. [fix those things on the list.]
Well we shall see. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif