Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Spirokeat,

Boron is from Germany, not the U.S., as you believe. Chastising him as if he were an American is hardly fair. He's arguably more European than you are.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Best change that to

The US has bush right now, so that practically invalidates any arguement the US has for not being right at the top of pseudo-nutjob arrogant leaders list, be they religious or not.

Spiro.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">i also posted that : <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">and after that i declared that every group has its own black sheeps but that the catholic group has the longest and bloodiest history in doing crimes in the name of god .
my main disagree with the catholic church is the institution of the pope .
as i have stated before that is blasphemy nowhere in the bible can be found legitimation for the office of the pope .

i come from bavaria and we have here some maria worshipping sects that are really intolerant .
they are only one step away from suicide bombers . most bavarians are very intolerant .
catholic and csu-voters ( csu means christian social union , it is one of the 2 major german parties ) .
i am a confident protestant spd-voting bavarian .
with that attitude my attitude differs greatly towards the bavarian majority .
bavaria is germans most conservative country .
only with catholic csu-voters with high education you can discuss fairly but with 90% of the not so educated people discussion will follow that simple pattern :
if you say anything against csu ( they are almost like the SED in bavaria ruled from 1949 until now alone always with 50%+ majority ) they just say you are a public enemy and go to prussia if you wanna complain .
whether or not kohl is mainly responsible for our great state deficit doesn't interest them .
they simply neglect despite it is true .

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">thnx arryn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

yeah britain is the sole major european country left that's not in the eu .

oh and ps : isn't britain protestant ?
henry VIII dissociated from the pope .
so i don't get why you attack me complaining about the pope ?

[ July 28, 2004, 14:12: Message edited by: Boron ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Untrue - there are several religions (even major ones) whose belief system doesn't exclude the validity of others. Buddhism, Hinduism - blood and bone, even the Islamic faith originally had the view that Judaism and Christianity were true religions whose worhshippers could eventually get to heaven, but that Mohammed was the Last, most authoritative prophet.

(Keep in mind that even most Muslims expect some suffering in the afterlife before they get to their heaven, as each who didn't die a martyr has to cross a bridge that is razor thin / sharp, in bare feet.)

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah that's a really interesting question .
i heard from moderate muslims with which i discussed myself and from many other sources that mohammed is often misunderstood too but if you look close to the koran you find nothing which legitimates suicide attacks and killing of nonmuslims .

a source is poverty .
the islam is a 700-800 year younger religion than the catholic one .
so you could say history repeats sometimes .
now the islam exists for about 1200-1300 years .
the catholic belief existed 1200-1300 years exactly in 1200-1300 . in that time they made some of their biggest crimes : the inquisition and the crusades .

now expect the hardcore ira as you mentioned before i agree that fortunately there is no other religious group that is that dangerous .
expect some muslim fanatics .

but in both cases poverty is a main cause :
irish people were ( perhaps still are i am not very informed on that topic ) the poor and disadvantaged group in northern ireland .

same with the muslim fanatics .

poverty is one of the things demagogists exploit most . in most extremist e.g. muslim splinter Groups the leader is not much more than a demagogist like saddam or hitler who just abuses the popularity of church for his own claims .

if you can't combat poverty and especially discrimination of certain Groups unfortunately i know no solution against demagogists http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

I'm not attacking you Boron, my apologies if you felt that. Aside of that, the point I wanted to make is that the US is no less culpable in its ownership of fringe extremists than most european countries, hence my sweeping generalisation comment.

And as for England being Protestant, well, the church of england may be (i have no idea), but to be honest standard christian religion plays very little role in many peoples lives here despite us hosting a highly multicultural populous, which I say with some experience having lived in Bradford for many years, probably the largest population of Musilms in the UK.

Though I wouldn't deny that many traits and traditions within English society were born of christian values.

Spiro

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, given the level of destructiveness of today's technology, this planet, and we humans, cannot afford to wait another 500-600 years until Muslims mellow out, become civilized, and abandon the path of the sword. A martyr-wannabe with a gene-tailored virus, who cares not who or how many die with him, is the most scary thing imaginable. And it's all too possible. Forget stolen nukes or home-grown ones. They can, at most, kill a few million. Some psychopath, funded by Saudi oil money, with the help of any of the many ex-Soviet unemployed bioweapons scientists, could end all human life. And unlike nukes, there's no technology that can be invented to detect such a thing at a port/airport. Hell, they could release the doomsday bug in their own country and let their own people, totally unknowing civilians, spread it around the world.

Cheery thought, eh?

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Anglican Church (the Church of England) is a Protestant Christian sect.

EDIT: quote formatting

[ July 28, 2004, 15:08: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Boron,

That all religious conflicts (wars) have 'poverty' as their root cause (if you use a very loose definition of the term 'poverty') is true. Religion is an excuse that people use to justify aggression used to achieve other goals. The Crusades weren't about faith. They were about land-grabbing abroad, and political maneuvering at home. The Holocaust wasn't about a difference of faith between Nazis and Jews. It was about a redistribution of wealth and the elimination of ideological threats. The Arab-Israeli conflict is not about faith, but about controlling land and revenge.

If you eliminate greed, vengeance, and true poverty, then you remove the excuses used for religious intolerance. But you have to get rid of all three. Curing poverty is not enough. Though it would take care of 99% of the problem, probably making the rest manageable.

EDIT: typo

[ July 28, 2004, 15:20: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah i was a bit surprised that you thought i am an american . so i wasn't quite sure if you are attacking me thnx for the clarification http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
we share the same view about generalisation . i think i am a very tolerant person .
that was why i felt a bit attacked because i thought i had pointed it out clearly that i am in no way against the catholic church in general only against some popes which made faults and because of that against the office of the pope anyways .
perhaps it was impossible to understand because i wrote "black sheeps" . that is a well known german figure of speech i guessed that it is in english simply black sheeps .
is this correct ? because if that means something completely different in english or is even nonsense then half of my post where i wrote that may be very hard to understand http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

church plays no great role here either at least not for the protestants in bavaria most catholics are a bit conservativer here though .
i think having a honorary office in the catholic church and beeing seen as a good catholic still would help you if you aim for becoming a politician here .

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, given the level of destructiveness of today's technology, this planet, and we humans, cannot afford to wait another 500-600 years until Muslims mellow out, become civilized, and abandon the path of the sword. A martyr-wannabe with a gene-tailored virus, who cares not who or how many die with him, is the most scary thing imaginable. And it's all too possible. Forget stolen nukes or home-grown ones. They can, at most, kill a few million. Some psychopath, funded by Saudi oil money, with the help of any of the many ex-Soviet unemployed bioweapons scientists, could end all human life. And unlike nukes, there's no technology that can be invented to detect such a thing at a port/airport. Hell, they could release the doomsday bug in their own country and let their own people, totally unknowing civilians, spread it around the world.

Cheery thought, eh? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">very scary "visions" .
i carry them on how they could be too :
lets assume terrorists spread a very virulent disease as you described .
if it breaks out quite quick then perhaps the leaders of the countries of the world like bush , putin and so on will hide in sterile bunkers and nuke whole afrika , middle east and other "terrorist" countries .
perhaps a few of the leaders in the bunkers though survive because they didn't get infected yet or find a remedy .
but earth will be unlivable anyways for the next some thousand years because of the nukes .

a very scary variation too i think http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah i had that in mind too . i think we need to add discrimination and grudge and fear .

it is a vicious circle :

poverty and discrimination of whole social classes / whole nations result first in 2 things . the lower class is jealous on the upper class and begins to hate them . the upper class begins to fear the lower class .
soon it escalates and they start to violate each other . if that point has been reached and continued for some years it is hard to ever stop it .
each group claims to only take vengeance for what the others started .

unfortunately i think it can't be overcome because the human nature at least of the great majority is egoistic and greedy .
some are quite moderate some not ( these become often the richest capitalists ) ,but the tendency to greedy and egoistic behaviour is in every human .

it seems though that men have this behaviour in a more dangerous / stronger form than women averagely . at least less women are willing to go to the next step to satisfy their greed and start wars .

if human nature wouldn't be egoistic the pure / idealistic communism marx and engels had in mind would work and most likely be the best type of government . but so far history has proven that human nature isn't ripe for communism or any similiar form of government where the aim is to provide everybody the best possible life .

perhaps it changes once we have a common enemy : aliens .
but i doubt if that is a preferable solution http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Wow! Go to bed for a few hours and look at the firestorm that ensues!

I didn't mean to spark a debate of the correctness or validity of Catholicism, I merely pointed out that I thought it was silly of Kerry to say he was Catholic in a seeming attempt to garner the Catholic vote when he also states that he does not share some of the basic beliefs/values of Catholicism.

I'm not skilled enough in apologetics to try to tackle all of the questions/issues presented in this thread, but I can clarify a couple of issues where I feel something is incorrect...

Cheezeninja & Boron - I appreciate your views. Everyone knows religion is a hot-button topic, and the Posts here show how vehementaly people feel.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with your point here that it comes down to how certain information is viewed - is it a baby or is it a zygote? Is Kerry refraining from forcing his beliefs, or is he a hypocrit? It comes down to point of view. Because of this, I think its very rare that someone will change their position on the subject just because someone else talks with or tries to persuade them. The decision and veiwpoint come about because of experiences and values, not because of words and explinations.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The point is, indeed, moot. Not because the pope is given a divine status, but because, in matters of church doctrine, he is considered infallable. Regardless of whether someone ELSE agrees with that or not, it is the teaching of the Catholic church.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I understand your point here, but as you also stated later in your post, "In the end it just gets right down to the bones of the abortion issue wherein Anti-Abortion people think you are killing a baby and should be stopped". If that is the case, and in the Catholic view it is, then that is murder. Which was addressed directly in the Ten Commandments.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you notice my statement earlier in this post, the Pope is considered infallable in maters of doctrine. Even the Pope is not granted authority to change doctrine - only to interperet it. Practices can be altered (as in Vatican II), Liturgy can be changed, but the doctrine and beliefs are consistant.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This statement is frequently made, and is just as frequently incorrect. Saints are by no means placed on a godly level, nor are they worshiped. They are elevated as role-models and examples of faithfulness. There is nothing wrong with asking others to pray with and for us, and that is what Catholics ask of the Saints - to pray for them. Their lives are used as examples of how to live a Catholic life and how to act/react in given situation. They are not given their own divinty, nor are they given the authority or powers of God. The same is true about Mary. Your statement that she has become more important than Jesus is an exaggeration to say the least. Just as the Saints have an elevated status, so does Mary. Even the scripture refers to her as "Blessed above all women". Does she hold a revered status? yes! Is she given the power and authority of God, himself? absolutely not.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are misinterpreting my quote. Whether or not the Catholic church believes it is the only faith is a matter of debate. But the quote "I believe in one holy, catholic, and apostolic church" does not negate other beliefs. The quote (which interestingly enough appears in both the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds - both of which are part of the Lutheran liturgy as well) is making a statement about how the church defines and recognizes itself. Note that "catholic" is not capitalized here (I think in a previous post, out of habit, I capitalized it, which is incorrect.) This refers not to catholic as in the believe system, but rather the word "catholic" as it is derived from the greek word meaning universal. It basically states that only one catholic (universal) church is recognized, and it is granted its holiness and sanctity in the fact that the leadership is decended through the unbroken and successive line of the apostles, and thus retains its original beliefs(doctrine-wise). In effect, in terms of Christian faiths, the Catholic church views itself as the church, and all other Christian belief systems as sects, since they historically broke off from the Catholic church and branched off from there.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Could you please clarify what you mean here by aggressive? If you mean that the Catholic church is very vocal in it's opinions and is trying to constantly increase its influence, that's one thing - I would have to say you have a valid point. But if you're equating aggressiveness to violence and forcing itself on someone, I would have to disagree, and I think most of the news coming from the middle east would support me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ July 28, 2004, 20:53: Message edited by: daesthai ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm the one ignoring every instance where it fails? You seem to be doing that yourself. Every person who leaves the country to seek treatment represents a failure of the health care system. Yet you'd ignore this when claiming your system is better.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That depends on how you define statistically significant. After all, people who are rich is a small slice of the population already, and smaller still is the population of rich people who are sufficiently sick to do this. They also don't exactly fill out a form indicating they're doing it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Err....if I wasn't paying for everyone else's problems, I'd pay less for healthcare. Far less for healthcare. Like, say, zilch. Because I'm not sick. I get to keep my money. Funny how that works. And I see no evidence to suggest that society benefits as a whole: These people are not contagious, and what they have isn't going to affect me, or anyone else. I fully support the idea that a publicly-funded program against infectious diseases is a good one. I don't believe that publicly-funded healthcare in general is, as there are an awful lot of really frivolous treatments that get funded at your expense.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They wouldn't have to try as hard. After all, they don't have to worry about saving money for if they get sick. They can just be totally useless slackers and expect somebody else to pay for them. I'm not saying everyone does this, but it's obvious that the people who end up becoming sick as a result, and couldn't have afforded to pay, are.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not at all: The police arguably provide a public service that is beneficial to all. Everyone benefits from them, mostly, unless you happen to be a criminal. I say "arguably", because many times, it's not really clear that they're actually providing this effectively, as they're overburdened with meaningless, frivolous things. However, the theory remains sound, even if present implementation is lacking in many areas. This doesn't mean I don't think people shouldn't take care of themselves, though. We have the second amendment for a reason, insofar as certain politicians keep trying to hamstring it, something which is apparently sadly lacking in Canada and leaves you at the mercy of killers, rapists, robbers, and other hoodlums.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh, not at all. I don't believe people who fail are always lazy. Everyone has their own cause for failure, which can be summarized as consisting of some combination of apathy, incompetence, stupidity, and laziness. If you bothered to apply yourself and didn't just give up and whine when the going got though, you would succeed, or die trying. Either way, you have dealt with your personal problems personally, the way it should be.

[ July 28, 2004, 18:23: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Norfy, I'm surprised you haven't made the Darwinian argument against the social safety net of universal healthcare: the weak, the lazy, and the inept die off, preferably before they breed, and the gene pool gets cleansed. Or were you working up to this? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can G.W. B. and his follower!!!!!!!!!

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wrong. Bush isn't Catholic, though he is pretty extreme.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I'm not ignoring it. The aggregate health statistics of the population show that in general people are healthier in Canada. Nobody here has been able to show that these statistics are significantly altered by those wealthy people that might go to the U.S. for treatment.
There is no need to ignore large segments of the population to arrive at this. You, on the other hand, would like to simply ignore the part of your population that can't afford health care. That's called biased sampling, and you can be used to get such useless results as showing that there are no people living below the poverty line by refusing to count people that live below the poverty line.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Statistically significant means that the number of such cases is large enough that it has a noticeable effect on the health of the general population.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why don't you name some frivolous treatments then.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And everyone benefits from a healthy population. A population with healthier people is a population that can be more productive.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh good grief. Keep on spreading that FUD Norfleet. I know that you are incredibly paranoid, but the violent crime rate is lower in Canada than the U.S.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You might want to avoid contradicting yourself when you write something.

[ July 28, 2004, 19:33: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Wow. You are gone for less than a day, and there are 3 new full pages of flames on several none-related topics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Ok, here we go...


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">LOL. Well said. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif It looks like I need to reclarify my collection of rocks into 2 new categories of smart and stupid. Sounds like facinating project. Do you think you can give me a hand with it Graeme? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ July 28, 2004, 19:56: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That assertion makes no sense, because obviously, Zaire does not have a great health care system if people there are leaving the country to seek their health care. Nobody goes *TO* Zaire to get treatment. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You have missed the Graeme's point completely. He was saying that any healthcare system that gives most benefit only to the rich people is not a good one. The question what exactly they need to do to rip these benefits is irrelivent for the topic of this discussion.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

I'm seeing a lot of comments claiming Bush is extreme, or radical, self righteous etc. I just want to get an idea of what you guys consider as extreme and such. I'm assuming it's his religious convictions, but what I see from Bush is pretty republican status quo. He's anti abortion and against gay marriage. Most conservative replicans are anti abortion, and gay marriage has been illegal since the beginning of this country up until just recently. He's not pushing for the overturning of Roe vs. Wade and he wants to keep the status quo for marriage. So what exactly is extreme? Specifically. When I hear the words extreme republican, I think of Pat Buchanan, he wanted to throw homeless people in jail for vagrancy. To be honest, Bush is pretty liberal when it comes to domestic social issues, for a republican. Is it because of his choice to go to war? Without the approval of the U.N.? Is it because he believed in the case against Iraq and still won't back down from it? I see a lot of hatred for Bush and I just don't get it. John Kerry himself made the exact same case for war with Iraq, and has even admitted to commiting war crimes in vietnam. Real war crimes, but he gets a pass every time, on every issue. I feel a whole lot safer with this guy in power than ANY democrat (except maybe Liebermann or Zell Miller), but a lot you feel exactly the opposite. I'm not trying to change anyones mind here, I just want to know where the hatred is coming from.

Vig

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I know some germans who went to America for some special treatment. But I am not sure whether this is proof for a general superiority of your system. It only shows that in certain regions of medicine one might be better of with your health system. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True. It is more or less established fact that the USA is the most advanced country in the world in the field of *surgery* in general, with few exceptions. The other medical fields here are not as advanced though.

[ July 28, 2004, 19:45: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And you can prove that this can be entirely attributed to the healthcare, rather than the more comfortable and healthy climate that pervades the entireity of Canada? Anyone can live longer and healthier when there's no festering hellhole for a good portion of the country to live in.

More importantly, how does this actually prove the superiority of the health care involved? Just because you can claim that people are healthier, whether or not it can be entirely attributed to the system, does not mean the system is better at dealing with things that actually MATTER. Besides, the Canadian system is based on what is essentially thievery. If crime didn't pay, why would anyone do it?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The difference here is that the people who "can't afford" *ANY* health care whatsoever are clearly nonparticipants in the system. If they can't be bothered to actually scrape together the entry fee to participate, it's unreasonable to expect them to be counted. Take the Zaire example: Wealthy people living in Zaire leave the country for their treatment, because the health care system in Zaire is such that they cannot *GET* that treatment in Zaire, regardless of how much money they'd actually spend there.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd find you an example, but at the moment, google appears to be down. I'll get back to you on that if you remind me later. Then you, too, can be appalled that you actually paid for that.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You assume that this productivity comes for free, however, when, in fact, you're simply draining resources from the people who rightly earned it, to people who can't be bothered to get their own, so they can pay for their own needs.

Quote:

[QB]Oh good grief. Keep on spreading that FUD Norfleet. I know that you are incredibly paranoid, but the violent crime rate is lower in Canada than the U.S.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've heard this one before, but "lower" doesn't mean "doesn't happen", and rather have something I'm prepared to deal with happen more often, than to have something I'm not able to deal with happen less often, but still happen. The bottom line being that Canada is unsafe, whereas if someone tries to get me in the US, he'll have to come get some.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You might want to avoid contradicting yourself when you write something. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not contradicting myself. I'm saying that laziness is simply one possible contributing factor to being a failure, and is not necessarily the only one. You don't have to be lazy to be a failure. Incompetence, stupidity, or apathy can substitute nicely.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Viga,

Hatred? For starters, his gutting of environmental protections. His misleading the nation (by all definitions of the word 'mislead'). His pandering to corporate special interests, especially energy. His smug, self-righteous, holier-than-thou attitude. And, of course, that detestable smirk/sneer he's fond of.

The above list is by no means complete. But it's more than enough.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wrong. The U.S. is also the world leader in cancer research and treatment. I cite this one example as enough to shoot down your blanket assertion that the U.S. is only good in surgery. There are other areas as well.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Norfy, Google is working just fine.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Untrue - there are several religions (even major ones) whose belief system doesn't exclude the validity of others. Buddhism, Hinduism - blood and bone, even the Islamic faith originally had the view that Judaism and Christianity were true religions whose worhshippers could eventually get to heaven, but that Mohammed was the Last, most authoritative prophet.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is true that ancient muslims were somewhat tolerant to two other "religionsof the Book", as they called Christianity and Jiudaism, mostly because of local geopolitics as well as because of shared theology.

However you can't judge any modern religion by what is written or not written in its Holy Books. You must judje it by the real facts on the ground and by actions of its followers. And I agree with previous posters, that as of today the Islam is by far the most intolerent and agressive major world religion.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Edited

[ July 28, 2004, 20:08: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Let me understand this. You prefer a higher crime rate, so long as you get to be involved with it and shoot back? Taken to a logical extreme, you'd prefer LOTS of crime, and Old West-style vigilante justice to a (utopian) society of no crime and no gun ownership?

Yes, I know about the old adage "an armed society is a polite society", but we're already a heavily-armed society ... that's anything but polite, and getting less so by the day. Oh, and before you accuse me of something, I own a now-Banned assault weapon, and I'm a damn good shot (used to be an expert marksman in the Army). But I'd much rather not *have* to keep an arsenal at home for fear of my fellow citizens.

[ July 28, 2004, 20:17: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

He will come to it Arryn, don't give him hints to make it easer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't need to attribute it solely to the Canadian system. I can attribute it to any of the 36 other nations in the world that have healthier populations than the U.S., and spend less per person to get there.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">People's health can be _directly_ attributed to the health care system that is in place. And yes, the measured health statistics listed in the WHO report are things that matter like infant mortality and life expectancy.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thievery? You certainly have little concept of the law.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are they citizens or residents of the country? Yes? Then they certainly are a member of the population of tha country, and are certainly participants in the system. I love how you've going to such great lengths to disguise the fact that you're saying "Oh, those people don't count because they are poor. Here, take a look at what you can buy if you're one of the wealthiest people."

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thank you for proving my point. You've just included the part of the population that can't afford health care when determining the state of Zaire's system. How come these people don't matter when it comes to the U.S.?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why would I be appalled? My share of any such treatments would amount to tens of dollars at most over the course of a year.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And here we see the continued usage of the "lazy people" argument.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is nothing more than paranoia on top of fear, uncertainty and doubt, coupled with your acceptance of spoonfed propaganda. You have no reason to be afraid of the vast majority of other humans.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Apathy is the same thing as laziness. That a person may be incompet and stupid is no reason to throw them to the wolves and let them die.

I'm always amazed at how many smokescreens and red herrings people will throw up to try and direct attention away from the fact that they are willing to be responsible for the deaths of others through easily preventable causes.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Environmental issues and the special interests are viable, debatable issues (normal party line issues), misleading the country is not true. The information he used to make his decision is the same information Clinton touted, Kerry touted, 74 other senators touted, Britain touted, Russia touted, do I need to go on? Misleading someone is a willful, knowing act, this is not the case, and the 9/11 commission and British commission report have concluded the same. The rest of your reasons are of a perceived attitude and facial gesture. Aside from standard party line issues, I find those to be a pretty weak arguments.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

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[ July 28, 2004, 20:16: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Environmental issues and the special interests are viable, debatable issues (normal party line issues), misleading the country is not true. The information he used to make his decision is the same information Clinton touted, Kerry touted, 74 other senators touted, Britain touted, Russia touted, do I need to go on? Misleading someone is a willful, knowing act, this is not the case, and the 9/11 commission and British commission report have concluded the same. The rest of your reasons are of a perceived attitude and facial gesture. Aside from standard party line issues, I find those to be a pretty weak arguments. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Few other points:
Bush is severely hurting the most vital reseach in medical field for the Last several decades, that could lead to millions of lives being saved in USA and in the entire world in close future. This is nothing but the crime before humanity. His efforts will not prevent any of this reseach, since there are other countries with smarter leaders. But due to his efforts the advances are much slower that they could be, if USA, who is is clear leader in this field and with its powerful biotech industry, would take take the appropriate role in this reseach. And hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people will die or suffer from their conditions, because of this decisions. And do you think Bush will lose even one night sleep because of it? Nope, no chance in hell. Why? Because he knows that he is right, and the entire sciencific world is wrong. >;(

The various ecological protections that were in place for several decades are being disenmantled. Another thing is that Bush is just simply too crude and too unsubtle for the foreing relationships. What much worse is that unlike good leaders, Bush surrounded himself with people and cabinet in his own image, people who that instead of covering his weaknesses are multypling it. (With sole exception of Cohen Powell, who is serving the the sad role of "figus leaf" in this administration)

[ July 28, 2004, 20:27: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

[quote]Originally posted by Arryn:

Quote:

In a long-running flamefest that happened many months ago, and was eventually pruned by the Moderators, you did. Alas, since it was pruned, I cannot quote it back to you (throw it in your face). You very firmly bashed all things Democratic and favored all things Republican.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">LIES !! You must be mixing your medication and drinking again. The presidents I have found worthwhile during the Last 25 years were very few from both sides. Despite what your drunken guessing I do not like either political party.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because Kerry is claiming to be a Catholic it is his moral responsibility to be against abortion.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When someone chooses to have an abortion they have DESTROYED the entire future of the child/human which could have been. They've chosen the path of everything that child could have become.

[ July 28, 2004, 20:25: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Viga,

You've assumed that when I mentioned "mislead", I was referring to the reasons for going to war with Iraq. Not true. I refer to his concealed plans to go to war with Iraq *before* 9/11, and his reasons for the *timing* of when he took us to war. Also, he's the President and (as Harry Truman said), the buck stops at the Oval Office. He's the top guy, and thus ultimately responsible for what happens, and for the people who work for him. If Clinton was President, and we were in the situation the US is now in, rest assured the Republicans would be howling for blood. Clinton lied to the public and the Congress about having sex. Bush has lied about most everything else (the true costs of the tax cut, how the nation's energy policy was crafted, and a very long and dirty laundry list of other things), and he's gotten many of our soldiers killed.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Arryn, sorry for assuming what you meant by mislead.

There is absolutely zero evidence that Bush was planning on going to war before 9/11. Thats pure speculation. As to Clinton lieing about sex, he was in trouble for obstructing justice, for lying under oath in a sexual harrassement case about him. He was impeached, found in contempt of court for lying to a judge and fined 90k. Enough about Clinton.

It seems to me that your biggest gripe about Bush, is that he is liar and a schemer, though there is no factual evidence to any of it. Do you really not like the guy because he "seems" to be a liar?

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thievery? You certainly have little concept of the law.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh, I'm aware of it. In fact, it's worse than thievery. At least thievery is illegal and when thieves try to rob you, they risk their own health and well-being for their gains. Politicians are worse than thieves: They make it LEGAL to rob you.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are they citizens or residents of the country? Yes? Then they certainly are a member of the population of tha country, and are certainly participants in the system. I love how you've going to such great lengths to disguise the fact that you're saying "Oh, those people don't count because they are poor. Here, take a look at what you can buy if you're one of the wealthiest people."

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thank you for proving my point. You've just included the part of the population that can't afford health care when determining the state of Zaire's system. How come these people don't matter when it comes to the U.S.?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didn't say that: I was pointing out exactly the same thing: That the healthcare system in Zaire obviously sucks, because anyone who feels like spending actual money on their own health....LEAVES THE COUNTRY! Obviously, they can't get what they want in Zaire. What does this have to do with the fact that many people in Zaire can't afford to do this? It doesn't change the fact that the system sucks, because obviously, anyone who cares to afford to get out does so.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's the principle of the matter! Give an inch, and they take a mile. Have you no sense of principle anymore? What is wrong with you people?!?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You still can't demonstrate what is *WRONG* with the lazy people argument. Clearly, by their own problems, they demonstrate that they are stupid, lazy, and/or incompetent. Otherwise they'd have dealt with this on their own!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The only difference between something that can go wrong, and something that can't possibly go wrong, is that when the latter goes wrong, it usually proves impossible to fix.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not really. I'm normally an industrious person, but there are some things I just don't give a rat's *** about. If they go wrong, I don't care. I have things I actually care about, and that ain't one of them. If it goes wrong, I let it go wrong. And hey, it's only a problem if you make it a problem.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Throwing would imply that some sort of action was taken. This is not the case. If they make their own bed, let them lie in it. Maybe they'll reconsider. But that is not my problem.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You assume that we need every Last person we can get, and that the world is not overpopulated. We don't, and it is. If some people choose to voluntarily remove themselves from the herd through their own actions, why should I stop them? My resources are better bestowed upon those I feel are worthy of them. I'd rather give my money to somebody I feel is deserving of it, rather than some slacker who dug his own grave and deserves to lie in it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Absolutely. Fight crime: Shoot back. It'd be nice to have a utopian society with "no crime" and no gun ownership, but I keep having nasty 1984 and Brave New World flashbacks whenever I think of that idea, and frankly, it gives me the willies. It's entirely contrary to human nature. Be real. At least life would be interesting.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's because things have been downhill ever since duelling was Banned. Besides, the Swiss are well-armed. They don't have any problems. Clearly, there are other factors at work which promote the violence in America, and given that it exists, apparently independently of how heavily armed we are....would you rather be heavily armed, or would you rather that only criminals be heavily armed?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I approve.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What's wrong with having an arsenal at home? It never hurts to be prepared for when the revolution comes. A good gun is like a pair of comfortable pants. Never leave home without it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What, I haven't implied this sufficiently? How direct do you need me to be?

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't drink, smoke, or do drugs. Sorry to burst your bubble.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As an American, it's his moral and LEGAL responsibility to support the Constitutionally-guaranteed FREEDOM to choose for oneself what one does with one's own body. Perhaps you cannot be Catholic and American at the same time, if as a Catholic you must give up some of your basic human rights.

BTW, there's also a Constitutionally-mandated seperation of Church and State, which Bush and the far right-wing elements in the US conveniently try to ignore.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Doesn't God forgive all? Isn't it God's place to judge, and not Man's? So shut up and quit telling others how to live their lives. It's blasphemy in your own faith. Sinner.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When someone chooses to have an abortion, they're removing an unwanted parasitic organism from their own bodies. I guarantee you that if YOU had been aborted as a child, you'd have had no objections about it. Being nonsentient at the time, and being subsequently nonexistent, makes for a very convenient package.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's so true... and there's no reason to send the USA down a dark path which includes higher taxes.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not so, but I don't recall offhand the name of the Bush admin. insider who not long ago leaked this. May have been Clarke (not the General, the other one).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have several books, written by investigative reporters, that document (and I do mean document, in verifiable detail) a very long history of his lying and scheming, from before he was even Governor of my state. I've disliked the man for many, many years. His whole family, for that matter.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Right. I think it's now quite clear that you have no interest in developing a functioning society, so there's little point in continuing this.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which doesn't change the fact that the U.S. system sucks because people who need treatment can't afford to get it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your statement here is a textbook slippery slope fallacy.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What's wrong with it is that whether the person is lazy or not is irrelevant. They still deserve a standard of living that is better than the poverty line. They deserve this because they are _human_.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This statement has nothing to do with your paranoid fear of human beings that you don't have personal dealings with.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The U.S. is hardly overpopulated. Like I said, you are willing to throw up any amount of red herrings and smokescreens to disguise the fact that you don't care about those people simply because you don't personally know them.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think the only thing to say here is: May you live in interesting times.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's nice to see that you _completely_ ignored all the evidence I presented to you in my earlier Posts. Of course, that's really par for the course with yourself, since you've always argued in this way on the forum.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I believe it's important to give a voice to the child which will exist. Once conception has occurred only God truly knows when the entity/organism has a soul... lets play it safe and stay away from abortion.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You say that, but it's still true: Every time some politician tacks some more crap onto your tax bill, they're hoping you won't notice, or will shrug it off as minor. It never ends. The fact of the matter remains is that everytime something like this is added, yet more of your money is siphoned away, not to support a public service that everyone can benefit from, like roads, the army, or libraries, but to support some worthless slacker who can't be bothered to support his own bloated carcass: Somebody who everyone would be better off without.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What are you, a Communist? Nobody *DESERVES* anything. If you want something, you have to *EARN* it. There's no free lunch, pal. If you can't afford something, you get a nice lesson in "learning to do without". I mean, hell, look at me: I spent many years living out of a used Army-surplus jeep. Why? Because houses cost money! I didn't HAVE that money yet, so guess what? I LEARNED TO DO WITHOUT. When I couldn't afford an extended hospital bill and stay to treat an injury incurred in the field, I patched it with duct tape! It's all about LEARNING TO DO WITHOUT. If you can't afford it, that's what you gotta do, not go piss and moan a handout from total strangers. Can't you at least panhandle honestly, rather than try to get the government to do your panhandling for you? Sheesh.

Today, I have lots of money. I can now afford things. So when I feel like I really want them, I do so. I have no pity for somebody who expects a free handout because they CAN'T AFFORD IT. Cry me a river. Boo frickety hoo.

You ALSO forget that trying to give everyone a standard of living ABOVE the poverty line simply redefines the poverty line! No matter what you do, there will always be people who are sufficiently "below average" to constitute poverty.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I disagree with this assertion. You merely need to try to go through a supermarket checkout to see that there are clearly too many people.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Disguise? Where have I tried to disguise this?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Amen. Boredom is a horrible way to die.

[ July 28, 2004, 21:11: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have no evidence that supports the existence of God, or souls. Assuming that God exists, there's no reason why I should place any real value in what he says, given that he has a known record of hypocrisy. Certainly he makes no effort to actually enforce any of this, and even if he did, he'd be nothing more than a bully. As for souls, well, as you said yourself, only God truly knows when an entity or organism has a soul, right? Let's stay away from eating animals, too, right? Yeah. I love animals. They taste great.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was wondering when the standard American insults were going to start showing up.

I suggest you read your own constitution. People have a right to _life_ in the U.S.

I've snipped the rest of your pointless tirade.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Another meaningless anecdote demonstrating the uselessness of your arguments.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You freely admit that you don't care about people that you don't know personally? Good. It's nice to see that you're demonstrating just why you're a social parasite.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why? It removes the important concept of personal responsibility.

What humans deserve is "the chance for a better life", not the better life itself. The latter should be earned. You and I have the right to have the opportunity to become wealthy. We do not have a right to be wealthy. Note the distinction. In the former, you can work towards your goals. In the latter, you are given what you seek without having earned it. I have the right to try to become a U.S. senator. I do not have a right to be one. Society owes me the opportunity to succeed, not the success itself. Society owes me the right to be able to find good medical care, not the care itself.

If humans have an innate right to be taken care of by our society, then why must we pay for rent, food, or anything else we might want in our ordained right to happiness? Please recall the United States Declaration of Independence says "pursuit of happiness", not "happiness".

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Let's, instead, not inflict one's beliefs on others.

"Judge not ..."