Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

And here I was thinking I should express regret for the way I expressed myself, if not for the content of my previous post.

You're now say that Zen probably cheated, because Norfleet did. I really didn't express myself emphatically enough, in retrospect.

You really just don't get it. Starcraft had a _very_ limitted number of troops, for each of 3 sides. That made it possible for Blizzard to balance each unit against the other units. It also made for a totally different game, in that there _aren't_ any particularly clever, ingenious tactics and strategies for the game - no one spends hours dreaming up neat things to try in Starcraft.

It's a great RTS - but it isn't in any way possible to compare the two, except for that "Well, they're both computer games". RTS vice turn-based, limitted units vice over 1000 unit types, not to mention that fact that the random nature of magic sites, "special" independents, and the like mean that no two games of Dom2 play alike.

And to bring up chess as an example of balanced illustrates your cluelessness even more.

If Zen had made stupid statements and arguments, people would have argued against him just as much. But Zen didn't tend to write idiocy.

I don't think this word 'unfair' means what you think it does. If one player didn't have to pay upkeep, while another player _did_ have to pay upkeep, this would be 'unfair'. Since everyone has the same conditions, it's perfectly fair, except for when someone _cheats_.

This is nothing but drivel, actually. Dom2 isn't AD&D, it isn't Starcraft, it isn't chess.

And even _IN_ AD&D, demons worked for squat, didly, nada, nothing. Or perhaps you've forgotten all those monster summoning spells, that conjured forth goblins, imps, even cacodemons, to fight and die for the mage for NO PAY AT ALL. They're compelled by the magic.

Oh - you want unfair, in Dom2? How about the fact that you can have blind units with no arms, and you still have to PAY them.

Feh. I'm so glad you think you've put forth some of your "best and most convincing arguments"; you're truly casting pearls before swine. I'm sure that it's just that many of us, including the developers, simply can't comprehend your brilliance, unlike the 'experts' like Cohen and Tauren. Thank you for attempting to enlighten us, but we're not worthy.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

I'm more stubborn than most. My greater age just makes it worse. If there was truly wisdom with age, I'd've given up trying to make you see reason long ago.

The slice from Occam's Razor yields this cut.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

its still the innocence of being young i guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Too bad he won't listen to his elders, only his age-mates. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../beerglass.gif

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

thnx for quoting out of context and doing misinformation .

i said since norfleet was cheating probably zen was the best dominions player present here on the board by public opinion .


really good way to cut the rest of my post out and giving my praise for zen by this way a totally other context .

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

You've misread what he said, although that's not surprising since Boron habitually excludes punctuation and capitalization, plus you're more than a bit peeved at him and thus prone to jumping a tad too quick. What he said was that both were considered "experts", but since Norfy cheated, Norfy being an expert is called into question, leaving Zen as the true expert.

Of course, there are various others here that I consider experts, all of whom have disagreed with Boron, but he's chosen to ignore their Posts and reply just to yours and mine. Odd behavior, but not entirely unexpected.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

I think it was more #1 than #2. From the other threads here I think people are more than willing to post "I agree" Posts.

As far as I can see you base this whole thing on opinions of the game as a head-to-head player competition with strength units. Thats far from my preferred type of playing style. You seem to have sparked the interest of some people who do tend to do well with that style but dont be too surprised if people who play solo, stealth, magically, diplomatically, or swarm (just to name a few) have wandered off to other threads.

You also appear to have a fondness for "balanced units" games (which by the way tend to bore me to death). The rock-paper-scissor balance (nothing is too strong as long as SOMETHING can beat it) which DOm2 does at national level (not that a unit can be beat, but only that a nation can outpower a nation as long as there is another nation which can beat it)

As far as the summons thing, your search for balanced logic is fine. But there isnt alot of agreement that its a problem. And the fix would affect other points of balance.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

I agree with this balance idea but it has a small caveat. The counter to a possibly unbalanced strategy has to be as easy or easier to do accomplish than the strategy in question. If not, then it is unbalanced because the questioned strategy will win through attrition.

There's no doubt in my mind that there are some strategies/nations that are in this unbalanced Category. They don't need a complete nerf, but they need to be checked properly. This is what all games struggle with, not just starcraft, or steel panthers or whatever, all strategic games of all types deal with it. Given time players will always migrate to the strongest strategies, and then once the optimal strategies are found, the information hunting (scouting, scrying, etc.), and the rock-paper-scissoresque play begins.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

steel panthers is different it should be as realistic as possible so that there the germans are sligthly stronger doesn't hurt the game .

FM_Surrigon in starcraft are no stronger strategies .
as you pointed out intelligence is important .

a zealot/ling rush kills a teching terra . but if the terra has only a few flamethrowers he will beat this .
if you don't scout and play blind a e.g. zealot rush it is dangerous because you put all eggs in one basket .


gandalf one question because i am curious :
do you like chess ?


edit : one other question : do you like the random events in dominions or hate them ?



i took luck 3 !! and lost on turn 3 my lab . since my treasure is exactly 186 this way i have 2 turns without researching which throws me back just toooo much .

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

1. It's not a question of "fair". It's a question of achieving the overal thematic feel that the developers want, while retaining overall game balance.

2. Walking trees can't do anything with gold, so why would they want to be paid with it?

3. Powerful magics and monsters are cool. That's why mahy of us play Dominions. I don't want to play a game that's focused on national troops, because that would be too much like World War II with funny names.

4. Small changes can have massive and hard-to-predict effects. So the default position should be, IMO, that the only reason to introduce a change is to fix something that's broken. The game works. Until you can demonstrate such broken-ness based on actual MP experience, the conservatives such as myselft are not going to agree that changes should be made.

Mark

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Bingo for bold!

I must admit, I read this thread in a sort of puzzled disbelief. The thread started off with discussing the routing rules, which has been up and about before without any real resolution. Then a suggestion to a fix had a "side comment" that this fix would slightly lower the value of SC, which turned the thread to a "how-to-limit-SC", while another "side comment" concerning the effects of the same fix on immortals unit started a "how-to-limit-powerful" summons. While these two items were discussed, the proponents for the powerful effects in the game chimed in and stated that they hated anyone and anything that would change this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif Meanwhile, Gandalf was humming his "Every unit has a use, you just can't figure out how"-tune, Cainehill decided to go personal and somebody for the lack of nether fiends decided to start a thread-inside-the-thread about tthe merits and WWII tanks!

Now the thread has degenerated into people repeating what they already said, without listening. So let me write the rest of this thread for you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Boron: Why don't you see the brilliance in taxing summons?
Arryn: That would destroy the game, which is so good.
Cainehill: Why are you so stupid, Boron?
Arryn: WWII tanks are the best
Gandalf: If people would just use the units nobody use, they would easily counter [insert-strategy]!

while true goto Boron:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

No I dont like chess. And I do like the random events in Dom. Im quite the advocate of solo play and increased "unfair" its such as randoms. My site at www.dom2minions.com is full of things designed to increase that in the game.

Ive been made very aware that Dom2 is created as a multiplayer game and hence is unlikely to ever get many of the things I would like to see in the game. But I am not eager to see it move farther in that direction either. Toward each single nation/unit/spell/map-feature/event being completely fair and equal. The balance in Dom2 is there for the game play but its deep and hard for some to grasp. Ive seen people give up and leave because Ulm was so out of balance with Ermor. They never realized that its more like Ulm beats Marignon which beats Ermor which beats Ulm. Thats overly simplified but its a workable example. Ulm doesnt have to beat Ermor if Marignon can. Or, Ulm doesnt have to beat Ermor as easily as Marignon does.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

LOL. Cute. Very cute. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Hehe.

- Kel

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

lemme throw something new into the mix...

what if a scaled upkeep was used for troops... for example:
a unit costs x^(1.8)/1000 upkeep where x is the unit cost

so a cheap militia will have .005 upkeep... a knight perhaps 1.3 upkeep... and a good mage about 15 upkeep

then of course high resource troops would be way better.. but at least then sloth 3 wouldnt be mandatory

in fact.. why not factor in resource cost?

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

There is sense to what you say BUT....
it would still be a balance affecting situation. This would impact nations such as Ulm much more than Pangaea and even Pangaea would have more impact from it than Ermor.

In mentioning Pangaea, I rarely purchase any of the high resource units at all. They serve me no purpose in the way I play. Im sure that is quite oppossite from the way some of the people in this thread would play Pangaea.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Sloth 3 is mandatory? That's news to me. Sloth 3 is _doable_ and possibly even desirable with certain nations, (C'tis comes to mind), but it's hardly mandatory. Quite a few nations would cripple themselves if they took Sloth 3.

And high resource troops generally are already better than low resource troops, because their armor (the usual basis for high resource cost) keeps them alive a lot longer than, say, LI, while their heavier weapons do more damage to the foe.

But now you want to make upkeep more expensive for high resource units??? (That's how I read that Last line of yours.)

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

*Shrug* It's just a matter of personal taste and preference. I might as well complain why so many people buy David Eddings crap when they could be reading George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire".

Yes, it won't happen. Not for this game. But I wouldn't want it to either. I happen to like Dom2 the way it is now, but occasionally, I'd like to play another fantasy strategy game that puts more emphasis on regular soldiers and less emphasis on all-out magic as well. I want that other game not as a replacement to Dom2 but as an addition to it.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

hint : this other game is really age of wonders 2 shadow magic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
give it a try http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
it is about the opposite of dominions though it has fantasy theme in common .

i have yet not decided which one i like more . i like both about the same .

oh and on x-mas hopefully battle for middle-earth will be another great fantasy game mainly for the eye . but who knows perhaps the gameplay behind it isn't that bad too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

just 2 anti-examples :

high protection is for all 8-12 hp units not enough to survive 1 single lightning bolt .

a vanheim van / skinshifter is a really good troop but very resource cheap .
since the skinshifter has a bit regeneration and better hp then an ulmish knight he has way better surviving chances against battlemagic then the ulmish knight .



perhaps my suggestions could be added though as modding command ?
that i can e.g. make militia cost only 1/200 upkeep while a knight costs 1/50 upkeep and a mage costs his normal 1/15 upkeep .

or a scaled upkeep as tauren suggested as a modding command . this way we could start such a modding game which would find enough players while nobody who doesn't like this wouldn't need to care .

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

I have all the books by both authors. Eddings is, for the most part, boring, but he's not a *bad* author, unlike some I could mention. But, given a choice, I'd much rather read Martin. I sincerely doubt you'll find anyone that rates Eddings better than Martin, except perhaps an ignorant child somewhere. But if you're waiting on Martin's next work, there's nothing wrong with some mindless entertainment by Eddings. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

That's how I use them. I've had several battles where I only won against the opponent's national troops and mages because I had 5 ice devils, a heliophagi, and a moloch all present, along with 80 or so devils and 50 lava warriors. Put that up against 3 Tuatha, 40-50 Daoine Sidhe, two sea kings with robes of the sea and water bracelets, plus about 10 elementals. Without my normal troops, that battle would have been a walkover for Man, as SCs with heavy armour can't deal with large numbers of elementals.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

I'd be quite happy to play such a game. Atlantis isn't a weak nation, since kings of the deep give them incredible flexibility.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Hehe, seems like it wasn't that long ago when everyone thought clamming was over-powered and Atlantis was a prime clamming candidate...

- Kel

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Note that elementals are one of the few ( only ? ) troops that can take on SC's. If you take them out of the battle the rest of his impressive army would have been destroyed by one of your ice devils ( assuming it was well equipped, and assuming no artifacts).

I've actually never tried to make an SC which is specifically tailored to take on elementals. I would figure that I would have to emphasize defence over prot. Perhaps an ice devil with a blood thorn, a shield of the accursed, a flame helmet or perhaps a starshine, Chainmail of displacement, a lucky coin and something for resistances could take them out. He would have a very high defence value. Sadly I don't have a save game handy to test this out. But I would figure that with a decent starting icedevil, let's say Oriax, he could slaughter the whole bunch. Of course the problem is that he would have elemental resistance problems, but you can't have everything. But with ice devils and many others you can come close.

It hurts me to say that the normal troops are a total non-factor since Daoine Sidhe are perhaps the best recruitable troop in the game on a cost adjusted basis. I really like those guys. I wish that they would be a factor in this battle.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

One ice devil would not have taken out that army. The only survivors were the commanders, and the ice devils had a great deal of trouble even hitting the sidhe.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Makes sense. We all know that SC's rule the day and *sadly* troops ( including summoned troops ) become chaff.

Come now. Perhaps you should define "a great deal" perhaps with a top flight bless effect and 2 stars of xp an ice devil should be hitting right around 50% of the time, depending upon item loadout. Given what you are saying ( that they commanders stayed behind after all of the troops were dead ) I have to assume that the ice devils went beserk so I'm going to guess that they had hellswords if which case they should hit more in the 80% range ( could even be greater, but there are so many variables I'll leave it up to the reader to figure out the exact percentage ).

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Perhaps I will the next time I get out of the Solomons. The thing is that when Dom2 came out, everyone was saying like it was everything AoW should have been but wasn't so I gave it a miss.

It occurs to me that I buy games a lot based on recommendations on forums like this one. I bought Dom2 because PvK plugged it on the SEIV forum. I bought SEIV because someone (I forgot who, someone who used to be a regular of the SEIV forum) plugged it on Infogrammes' MOO3 forum. And I bought MOO3 on the strength of MOO1 and MOO2 alone. What a mistake that was.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

When Dom3 comes around, I really hope that the developers refrain from a more of the same approach. Personally, I'd to see the developers tinker around with some more interesting mechanics, of which upkeep for summons and continual rituals, is only one example.

The idea is that Dom3 ought to be separate game and that even once Dom3 is out, people will still continue to enjoy playing Dom2.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

yeah i bought dominions 2 because someone on the eu 2 board told me and i just downloaded demo and was addicted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
i don't trust any pc testing magazines or softcore gamers anymore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

age of wonders is like a more balanced but a less deep dominions with upkeep for everything (expect heroes but you can only have 0-5 of them depending which setting you chose in options when starting a new game ).

dominions is not imbalanced mages + scs are quite well balanced within each other and most nations / themes have a fair chance to win .
of the about 30 themes/nations 20 have fair chances but about 10 are sligthly inferior .
in sp you can play all but in mp you shouldn't chose the inferior ones http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

i did what you described with warcraft 3 because of my liking for starcraft .
but warcraft 3 is such a bad game .
until warcraft 3 i loved blizzard . it was my favourite game developer company .
since warcraft 3 i hate them lol .
i won't buy anything with warcraft in its name in future .

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

[quote]
Huzurdaddi said:
Makes sense. We all know that SC's rule the day and *sadly* troops ( including summoned troops ) become chaff.[/quote

If you're going to ignore my explanations of what happened in a battle that you didn't witness, then we aren't going to get very far here.

Which is less than 1 kill per turn on average, thanks to glamour, which means that they certainly can't kill many enemy troops at all.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

While I agree with you about troops being useful this does not really support your case as 1/turn is still 40 say each.

I just defeated 2 airqueens with a 30 illithids & 15 mages army by paralysing them & enslaveing them. So troops here were good. But I think SCS are powerful in 2 aspects

1) they provide a massive boost in combat power to a conventional army - if the 2 above queens had had along 40 troops the troops would have soaked a lot of fire allowing the AQS to cause mahem.

2) They are great as very mobile raiders. This is my main complaint against them not raw combat power. They are just so much more easy to turn into flyers & fliers are so strong operationally. It is like the German Panzer Divisions/Corps/Armies in WWII (to get back to the tanks we all love) that as well as being the most powerful units used their mobility to do most of the fighting, at least in the mobile phases.

While I have not played enough yet to see if it is a problem I have given & received blitzkriegs facilitated by massed fliers.

Pickles

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

I'd like to see the rule for army routing become: Army routs when all non-commander troops are dead or routed and one commander is dead or routed.

This becomes the existing rule when there are no non-commander troops to start with and would also improve mixed battles, IMHO.

The other thing I'd like to see is forces that perform an organized retreat as a result of the retreat order, or fire and flee, going to the same adjacent province. Routing troops should still scatter to the four winds, of course.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Now that's an interesting idea. It avoids the complicated issue of morale checking for commanders, which I don't fully understand but doesn't seem to be compatible with Panther's original suggestion. It avoids the ludicrous routing of Moloch (or whoever) when the free summons (or other chaff) get killed. It even seems to avoid the slaughtering of the mages once you've lost the battle - you'd only lose one at most.

I guess the people who thought the original suggestions would make SCs even more powerful will still think so. I also guess that people who actually want their single commander to rout (without failing a morale check) when his troops have gone will not want this change. It's an interesting one to explore though (and, er, it makes a change from AoW and tanks).

CC
P.S. I like the orderly retreat suggestion as well.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

la la la

I love when an SC can beat the an army by himself. But you send him in with an army of his own they are defeated due to routing.


so silly