Re: A pirates life for me...
 

The .emp files are created when you save a race to file. I think they record all the data regarding characteristics, settings, ministers etc.
I think if the computer chooses them and you switch them to player control then save the race you can create the .emp files with the new traits saved.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Um, we are going to have to edit all of the .emp files anyways, to give them either colony ship tech or pirate tech racial traits.

Why is this a problem if its something we'd be doing anyways?

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Creating the .emp file is not a problem. Just let the computer pick the races, change them to human and save the race, maybe give it a slightly different name so you keep the original races available.
I suppose all the AI files will have to modified for any Pirate AI race created.
I'm just wondering why adding a trait caused the standard game to fail but worked in the mod pack directory. I didn't think the mod pack changed anything except the AI files.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

I would suspect that SE4 is more lenient on the Mod directory, since it can always fall back to the original files. If something small is left out, a default value can be used, and if it fails anyways, use the original files.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Thats possible. The guy who made the DMan mod said in another thread that he was able to add a trait so I think it is possible to add one and make it work. I'm just not very good with programs. I'm a trial and error guy, I try and make a lot of errors http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Um, we are going to have to edit all of the .emp files anyways, to give them either colony ship tech or pirate tech racial traits.

Why is this a problem if its something we'd be doing anyways?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


My concern was that something that was supposed to be moddable - the racial traits - isn't. To me this should be answered whether or not it causes us a problem in our PR project.

How are you goin to edit the existing races .emp files if you can't add em to to the game so that you can then edit them? (to edit a race, you must 1st add them as an existing race to your game, then go into the race, change whatever settings you want, and save it. - if there is another way, please let me know cuz I musta missed it)


------------------
Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

WH,
You don't edit the .emp files. They are created when you save a race. I think they contain the various points used, traits, culture etc. They can contain Minister settings for example and even ship designs used by the race.
I don't know if you remember but before patch 3, I think, not all the standard races could be manually chosen to add to a game but if they were chosen and you took control of them and saved the race you could then manually add them to a game.
I think the Pirate trait can be added, any trait for that matter, but its just that the info stored in the existing race .emp files won't have the new trait and therefore won't be available until you save the race during a game where the trait has been added to the Racial Trait file.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Even in the worst case scenario, you could simply create a new empire, set all its traits to the original's and then click "not-a-pirate" racial trait, and save your .emp.

AFAIK: The .emp dosen't contain any AI stuff, just old ship designs and racial traits and descriptions.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

SJ,
I think you are right. The .emp contains the set up info for the race.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

SJ & WHoJo, just a quick question, don't have much time today, The AI in the reg game without Mods, never builds or uses baseships, at least not that i have ever seen, in your mods w/pirates, do they, and if so what problems, if any, did they create for the pirate race? Or would they make any significant difference, especially in using them for tech, pop, or research instead of as warships?? Just a quick thought, mac

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

AFAIK, no AI has played as Pirates, and even MM would have one heck of a time trying to get them smart enough to capture even one ship from a human player.

(without heavy bonuses, AND Psychic tech (which is no longer considered a Piraty trait))

All non-pirate races would be normal.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 14 March 2001).]

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Do you think a neutral could play as a Pirate? The AI may not need to be as comprehensive for a neutral.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Well, I did some testing of the Pirate race trait and found some odd things.
First if I added a new trait to the SE4 directory then the game would not load. I kept getting an error message. Have no idea why this would happen.
If I added the trait to the mod pack it would work with some problems. I loaded the game about 8-10 times. Occasionally there was nothing in the main window or the small quadrant window. The planet window with the description, facilities etc. was there and all other items functioned.
Most of the time the game loaded fine. I couldn't add any existing race. I could add new players, add new players with saved empires and the computer would choose additional players so I think this has to do with the extra trait not being in the existing .emp file but I'm not positive. I was able to add techs, facilities, ships and components with no apparent problems, although I only played about 25 turns per game.
I have no clue why adding a trait would work in the mod pack directory and not in the SE4 directory. Anyone has any ideas?

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

SJ, I don't think Mac was asking if the AI can play as a pirate, he was asking if baseships (which, admittedly, don't seem to be used by the AI) caused any particular problems for pirates. Especially if said baseships were used for transport, colonizing, etc. roles.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Tks D. Tsaarx, and I apoligize to SJ if I didn't make my questions clear enough. SJ, I was just wondering, if you used baseships in your pirate mod, and if so did they create any problems for the pirates. Baseships are the largest and would have larger crews to overcome in a boarding operation. However, once captured, they could be used, due to their size as colonies, research or tech, etc. basically might or could be used as a mobile base. Did you have any problems with pirates capturing them if you are using them?
or any other problems? Do you think they should be incorporated into yours & WHoJO's mods as major componets or leave out of the game. Also Could you mod where 2 ships could board a victim at the same time, giving you more fighting power, if in fact baseships are used with the larger crews? mac

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

As for the crew size hindering boarding parties, yeah, that could be a problem, although I haven't seen any AIs build baseships. And I'm sure not gonna research them on my own http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

I've has trouble capturing colony ships & BCs, since I was only putting a single BP1 on each of my LCs, and two crew quaters fended off my boarding attempts. I ended up just shooting the BC until one of the CQs got blown up, and captured him with my third ship.

It would be nice if, when you used boarding parties, you could destroy some of the defending components before you died. Then, a series of capture attempts could eventually succeed.

As for trying to capture a baseship, I'd send a big fleet of captured LCs, which would run up and start pounding away with Large Antiproton Beams, or whatever my best tech was. With more than three times the tonnage in ships, I would expect to drop the baseships shields before taking 50% losses, and now short bursts of fire from each ship until there is only one Crewquarter left & no SDD. Then I can capture with a standard LC. If I was planning this operation for some time, I would also have a CR full of boarding parties (10 or so), and may have researched higher capture tech. Then I wouldn't have to do as much internal damage (only take out the SDD) to capture it.

The first capture always has to be analysed, the second one would be retrofitted to be, probably a support ship (repair/resupply and maybe a bunch of BPs for taking over the next Baseship)

Of course, if the AI dosen't build any baseships, the universe will never see one.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

This is getting off subject for a minute, but I sent MM and RA e-mail on AI not building or using baseships, RA stated that is does and MM said they would look into it. However, has anyone ever had game/s outside of mods, where AI has used and built baseship? Both several of my friends and I have played a good number of games from original up to v1.30 and none of us have seen AI use baseships. Also if you haven't could you send MM and RA a note of this. I think that if AI used baseships like it should it might improve game. ( how about in pirate mod, AI can build but human can't)
just idea, tks for help Mac

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhiteHojo:
Personally, I've never seen a valid use for the tractor beam or repulsor beam... if anyone else has used em let us know. To me, they'd just be wasted space.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I found the following strategy to be amusing against the computer: I fortified a warp point leading to the home systems of an AI I really didn't feel ready to fight with a couple of Battlestations armed with engine-killing weapons and massive mount repulsor beams... They'd send a couple of ships through the WP, and I'd lock down their movement and shove 'em out of range. When combat would end (generally rather uneventfully), the AI would have a fleet of useless ships draining his resources. If you could take out all the weapons on the ships as well, you could probably do the same to a human (unless they had SDDs)...

Yes, I know it's unfair to do this to the computer... But I felt justified in this particular case, as that filthy race had the nerve to be mechanoid, and hence invulnerable to my first contact plagueships...

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

In a pirate game, it already happens that a Human (pirate) race cannot build baseships.

A Human Pirate race already "cannot" build BCs.

Although it is technically possible to build a Baseship as a pirate race, at 50% build + limited resources, it will take around 75 turns to finish a baseship. Even LCs take over a year to build.

It will also require the scrapping of a LOT of LCs to fund the construction.

--------------------------------

About removing resource facilities for Pirates.
If we don't allow Pirates to build any resource extractor facilities, thier home planet will be filled up with research centers.

With 200 per turn + 50K starting, they could build an escort with a mineral miner quickly, and use it to start their economy. Alternatively, an escort with a (Pirate)SY could build a base with lots of mineral extractors over the nearby planets. By mothballing, you can avoid wasting minerals you can't store. Upon capturing ships, the pirate economy would shift over to the faster and sustainable (extractors deplete value) thieving economic system.

With all the research available, they could get ship capture tech quickly, as well as research repair & armor techs for better capture abilities.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Lots of good ideas being tossed around here lately... hope it keeps up but I'll be gone and off the Boards for about a week - business trip. Keep up the thoughts.

Hojo

------------------
Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

SJ, Is it possible for boarding parties to capture battlestations if the AI builds them either as a ship or as a base, (in regards to the pirate mod)Do you think this could be modded if not, into the pirate mod? I have never tried it in the regular game as the AI doesn't build many if any BS and to be honest I never even thought of it. In your mod would/could be possible to have AI build more BS's and use the ship capture routine? This would make for an interesting twist. How about capturing ftrs? Just some ideas,
mac

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

But what I know:
-The AI does build BassltStations, usually in orbit of the homeworld.
-I don't recall ever seeing an AI with boarding parties. (Plus I have never managed to capture a ship using Strategic combat)
-Fighters & sats are immune to capture vie boarding parties, but an allegiance converter may be moddable to target fighters & still work.
Hmm. Point defence Psychics anyone?
-AFAIK, the strategic decisions are hard-coded into a few styles.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

You could probably get the AI to build more defense bases by fiddling with the settings in the *construction_vehicles.txt file. Just decrease the number of planets per item or increase the number of must have at least. Keep in mind though this may screw with the AI's strategy since bases are pretty expensive to set up. They are capturable though. I grabbed a defense base battle station and a battle station ship yard Last night from the EEE. Which was pretty ideal since the two stations orbited a world with a resupply depot and other goodies deep in their territory.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

How has Ground combat worked for pirates so far? I'm not sure if I should bother building the infrastructure needed for those operations.

How long do planets Last before they are glassed, and how much loot do you get from the average planet full of facilities?

----------------------------------

BTW, does the 1% reduction in value from remote mining happen evey turn? I think it is, and if so, at no maintenance, I should be able to get a total of roughly
(NumMiners x 5/2 x Value^2)
if I'm doing my integration correctly. Note that that will be more accurate at higher "Value" values http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

oh, man I've said value too many times recently, and value has started to lose all meaning http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

---------------------------

If we don't allow Pirates to build resource facilities, it will be like a finite-resource game for them, and normal for the AIs. Cool!

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 18 March 2001).]

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>(Originally posted by Suicide_Junkie)
BTW, does the 1% reduction in value from remote mining happen evey turn? I think it is, and if so, at no maintenance, I should be able to get a total of roughly (NumMiners x 5/2 x Value^2) if I'm doing my integration correctly. Note that that will be more accurate at higher "Value" values.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't need integration; this is a simple sum of an arithmetic progression, multiplied by a basic mining rate.

The basic mining rate is:

NumMiningComponents*ComponentRate/100

I'm dividing by 100 to correct for the fact that the value is a percentage multiplier (i.e. 150% is really a 1.5 multiplier; however, we want to add the series from 1 to 150).

Sum of the arithmetic progression from 1% to Value% is:

(Value+1)*(Value/2)

So, if you're using a single Miner III (rate of 800 minerals per turn), you'd get:

8*(V+1)*(V/2) -or- 4*(V^2 + V)

For an asteroid belt with 150% mineral value, that comes out to 90,600 minerals. Obviously, any maintenance required for the mining ship needs to be subtracted from the total to get the actual net gain, but if you set the Pirates' maintenance to zero, that's not a problem http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You don't need integration; this is a simple sum of an arithmetic progression, multiplied by a basic mining rate<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course, but thats the easy way.

--------------------------------
What do you think about not allowing Pirates to build resource facilities?
The remote mining giving you finite resources, after which you have to steal to survive?

------------------
As for implementing that no resource facil thing:
If we have a racial trait "Not a pirate" that allows access to the racial techs "Planet resource Extraction" and "Colony Construction", then you will need to research level 1 in that tech before you can build.
Now, the AI will have a problem with that setup.
But, What if the starting tech level for "P.R.E." and "C.C." was set to 1?
If it is a racial trait, then the Pirates might not get even the starting level! Then, everybody else starts out like normal, while the Pirates can't build resource facils!

I'm going to test that in about 3 hours when I get home.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Have you been able to make the "is a Pirate" work?

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

In regards to not researching facilities, for my 2 cents, I think this would be mistake. They would need a means of resources
at least in beginning in order to build their
remote miners, ships etc. in order to plunder and pillage. How about if they are limited to only reaching level 1 resource facilities. Everything else they have to plunder or steal. This way they would have capability of obtaining some resources to get started but never enough to exist without miners or plundering or capturing. If possible you could put this as an option that way you could try both and see which one works better or to your personal preferences. However, I don't know if the computer could handle this without changing the other players traits. just an idea mac

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Oh, YEAH! Works like a charm!

All I did was
-add a racial trait "Not A Pirate"
-add a tech area "Not A Pirate"
--&gt; Starting level := 1
-linked racial trait to tech area
-Added requirement to mineral miner facil: Not A Pirate Tech Level 1

Started a game with 1 PIrates & 1 regular empire.

And the pirates started with no mineral miner facils on homeworld, no miner option on planetary build.
*end turn*
The normals: had miner facils & could build more!!!

--------------------------

Nitram: Just did! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mac: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>They would need a means of resources at least in beginning in order to build their remote miners, ships etc<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All the pirates need is to build an ES with a robo-miner.
OR.
All they need to do is build an ES with a pirate con-yard on it, which builds an efficient robominer base.

That is easy to do with your basic starting 50 K minerals, and you do get 200 resources per turn no matter what.

Once the first robo miner is operational, the pirates will build a ship to go and capture some stuff!
With no resource facilities on their homeworld, the pirates will have an initial research bonus over the other races, (even at 50% research racial trait). This will help them research ship capture early.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 20 March 2001).]

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

So you basically made that tech a trait tech? Thats cool. Do you have to choose not a pirate for all the AI races in the game also?

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Re: the zip -&gt;
this is just the data folder, so you have to create a mod folder and put this in a "data" subfolder, then edit "path.txt" to point to the mod folder.
Note: These files are from V1.27, but there were no major changes to these files in v1.3, so it should work.
--------------------
You bet! The only problem is that the Trait restrictions don't work, so SE4 will accept a race with both "Is A Pirate" and "Not A Pirate".
The GM will just have to watch out for that.

One other thing is that all of the .EMPs have to be re-saved to include the "Not A Pirate" Trait.


If somebody would be so kind to start games with random empires & save the .EMPs from them, then edit them to include "not a pirate", then those could be included, and the mod would be complete.

------------------------
If you don't choose either trait "Is" or "Not" a pirate, then you will get the disadvantages of both, and none of the advantages. Good Luck to you if you try that!

Is A Pirate:
Gives
- Pirate intel Center
- Swashbucklers (boarding parties)
- Small space Yard

Not A Pirate:
Gives
- Colony components (rock/ice/gas)
- Mineral/Organic/Radioactives facilities
- Monolith Facilities
- Offensive Intel Projects
- Organic Population Boosting Facilities.

Note: By "offencive" intel, I mean projects that hurt the enemy. Information theft is normal, as well as defence projects.

Exceptions:
Pirates cannot Steal Tech via Intel, they must capture a ship.
Pirates may steal resources from the enemy via "bribe transports" & "Trade disruption", though the trade disruption may not be in thier best interests http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 20 March 2001).]

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

This actually will allow the customization of the other traits as well. Imagine the organic races having ships with base costs in organics not minerals or no standard weapons availble to certain races or even customized resource extaction facilities. The possibilities are endless. This is great!

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Preventing the use of certain items is quite easy, just create a "Not an ____" racial trait & tech level, and require that. I don't know why I was the first person to do this (if I am). It only took 30 minutes to type in and debug!

All it requires now is for all of the pre-made race.EMP files to be re-generated.

Is there anybody here (an AI guy?) who's willing to do that?

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 21 March 2001).]

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Apparently, SE4 gives each component/tech/etc a unique ID when it loads the files. You can see this if you re-order the first three tech areas. Rock-homeworld races are hard coded to get one free level of the first tech area. similarily with ice and gas.
If you add components to the beginning of you components file, and load a saved game, you will notice that all your components changed. Your design has "6 component #32s" but component #32 is no longer ion engine I, but is a WMG III, say.

The only problem you may have is with AI, choosing the latest component in the file instead of a better component that appears at the beginning.
It may be best to insert components beside similar ones, in order of value to the AI, and warn that it is incompatible with other saved games.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

You might have been the first person to do it the easy way!
Do you know if you can have two techs/components withe thesame name in the same file but with different required techs? I would like to adjust the organic/crystal races facilities and ship cost to reflect their traits but I don't want to have to think of all new names. Think this would cause problems? I'm at work now or I would try it.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

All right, here is a basic set of .EMPs, covering a few (8) races converted to work with the Pirates mod.

Just save randomly generated empires, and then Add them to a new game, Edit them and check the "Not A Pirate" Trait.

That's all you have to do to get more. Please post them when you do.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Arrrr!
Speak up ye scurvy forum goers!

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

I think I can do a few tomorrow morning. Got busy at work.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

suicide_junkie
I tried to start a Pirate game Last night and all I got was a black system map http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

I have had that happen too. Did the rest of the game functions appear to work properly?

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Actually, that happened the first time for me, too. Every time after that, it worked OK.

Just goto the filemenu and hit start new game.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

SJ
I have some races saved with your pirate mod installed. How do I attach it, remember I am computer challanged http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Nitram Draw
The rest of the game seemed to be working, but I deleted the SEIV installation and have not been able to get back to my computer to reinstall. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif
I still think this is an inovative way to play.

PS Has there been any progress on the nomad idea? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

I think the nomad should be a slight variation of the Pirate. First I think we must get the Pirate ironed out. SJ has some good ideas on components but I think they should be expanded on. I really have not had to much time to test my ideas, although I have a lot of them written but not tested.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
SJ
I have some races saved with your pirate mod installed. How do I attach it, remember I am computer challanged http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ack! Oops, posting error:

The third text box down on the posting screen (after username, and password) is for attachments. theres a little link to the right that says "upload your files".
Anything you upload will automatically be attached.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 23 March 2001).]

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

SJ,
I wanted to post it in the forum, sorry I'm getting old and I miss my mind the most.
I'll e-mail it to you if you want.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
I think the nomad should be a slight variation of the Pirate. First I think we must get the Pirate ironed out. SJ has some good ideas on components but I think they should be expanded on. I really have not had to much time to test my ideas, although I have a lot of them written but not tested.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I seem to recall there being some sort of crystalline tech that extracted resources from stars. If that is a component that worked on a base in orbit of the star, then the nomads could use them (with really high output) to fund their empire. No need to colonize planets when you can get the resources from a star from the beginning.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
I seem to recall there being some sort of crystalline tech that extracted resources from stars. If that is a component that worked on a base in orbit of the star, then the nomads could use them (with really high output) to fund their empire. No need to colonize planets when you can get the resources from a star from the beginning.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

nah, its a planetary facility. also, it is only as good as a monolith when in a trinary system. otherwise it cant keep up.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

there is a solar collector facility for crystal. It works as long as there is a star in the system. When the star goes away (ie ringworl/sphereworld) the production goes away

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Has anybody tried giving a component that ability? Since it is not linked to planets, and it stacks, nomads could potentially use it for funds!

Nitram: See my post about 5 below

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 23 March 2001).]