Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

A balanced game does not necessarily mean that it will be dull and colorless.
And yes, I do understand that it is very hard to balance such a big system as this and still keep its "magic" intact. But please do remember that hard does not mean impossible.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

It's broken if you're doing a MP only game which MUST include Vanheim. Two easy fixes available... one is not play with Vanheim leaving at least 18 other nations per era available for gaming!! Second if you truly love Vanheim and must choose the nation in a MP game then the host can create a mod.

And I'll point out the Conceptual Balance mod dealt with multiple issues... the issue under discussion is one nation. I could understand if the game had only 11 nations or less to play, but that's not the case. I see no reason why SP gamers, MP gamers with AI opponents and MP only gamers should have a very powerful nation NERF wacked when there's easy ways for gamers to address the issue.


I never said the whole game was perfect. Some imbalances I noticed are the Umbrals that Argatha can summon for 2 death, yet there's no need for me to demand a change because I know a simple mod can make this adjustment. I could see a patch addressing an imbalance in a spell available to everyone, such as if summoning wraith lords was only 8 death gems. This would be an imbalance affecting all nations, yet this is one OPTIONAL nation and not an issue unless the host makes it available choosing not to mod the nation.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Actually NO, the vampire queen was Nerf wacked because she was available to multiple nations. As a result multiple nations would more frequently choose the vampire queen. The issue being discussed only exists if the host chooses to include this one nation and chooses to not mod the nation.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I agree Vanheim is very powerful... and the reason they should remain powerful is because this game is not MP only. If the game did not include SP as an option or MP with AI opponents as an option I would not be defending Vanheim from the NERFing bat. Having an option to create an unbalanced game verses AI opponents allows the game to be easier, equal or more difficult. More options verses AI opponents increase replay value.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

That's completely sidestepping the entire point and you know it. If the only way to avoid a problem is to voluntarily cut a whole nation out of the game, then that nation might as well not be included in the game at all and the bleating about a host being able to make a mod is a red herring. If mods are to be the answer, then they should be the method used by those who want an excessively powerful nation in SP. The reason for that is that it is much easier for one person to use a mod in a SP game than it is to coordinate mod version compatibility with up to 17 people in MP.

Irrelevant.

The easiest way to address the issue is for the SP game people to use the mod instead of forcing everyone else to do it. What part of this is too hard to understand? It is also easier to do a powerup mod for a nation than it is to do a balance mod, which is another reason for nerfing Helheim and Vanheim to a level of tolerably superior strength and let the SP gamers powerup them by mod.


And is this issue something that will allow them to easily dominate any given game they are included in? Or is it something that will shore up a weak spot but does not give them an overwhelming edge? I've not seen that many topics complaining about Umbrals, while there is a lot of discussion of Vanheim and Helheim.


So your preferred solution is to restrict content that would otherwise be available and perfectly acceptable if it were only tweaked downward a tiny bit? Gotcha. The remedy you propose is very much voluntarily cutting off your hand because it became dirty, instead of just washing it.

Edi

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Did you know that 1/4 of the nations have good enough sacreds that they are rockscissors against normal strength AIs? Dont need helheim for that.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Your reasoning doesn't make much sense really. Starcraft, Warcraft, Age of Empires, Dawn of War are all multiplayer and single player games yet each game was patched to fix multiplayer imbalance issues. I've never seen a game designed or patched using your reasoning.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Having unbalanced nations affects singleplayer as well. You're arguing that we should keep these nations around for the benefit of noobs. They're unlikely to find out they're overpowered unless they visit the forums, and if they do that they'll pick up enough knowledge to defeat any other AI on easy fine. On the flip side, if they are against Vanheim they'll get annoyed that they can't seem to win.

If people are good enough to want a more challenging game, they can play multiplayer or get a mod which has a more powerful nation. I'm sure most people would prefer that the game didn't always come down to you v Vanheim because that's boring.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Yes, the VQ was available to everyone - but it was also what made Ermor so overpowered, because Ermor could take _all_ negative scales, high dominion, and have the VQ as the most whacked out SC pretender in the game.

And for ratraping's sake - if you're saying that a nation (or _TWO_ in at least one era) needs to be modded or deliberately left out, you're admitting there's a problem.

Some of your comments have been ludicrous. "Oh, the newbies need a couple strong nations so they don't quit playing Dominions after getting whacked in MP"?

Yep, guess that's why chess, go, civilizations, etc, all have a couple over-powered sides to help newbies get into the game. Errr - with chess, is that black or f-ing white?

In dominions, the newbies wouldn't know to _choose_ the nations, and they wouldn't know the cheesy mandatory strategy required to do well with them.

Even if they did - it wouldn't do squat to help them learn the game, because W9F9 Vanheim/Helheim plays so differently from other nations.

As far as the "It can be modded" argument : a lot of people (including you in the past, I believe) haven't wanted to play using mods - some people don't trust them, other people don't like to get playing experience that isn't going to match a "real" (ie, unmodded or other, more standardly, modding) game.

It can be left out of games? Yep, _EVERY_ person who plays the game should be forced to learn and use map commands so other players (and the AI opponents) can't choose the nations, and then get into arguments with players who say, "Hey, how come I can't select Vanheim? They're the only nation I like playing!?!?"

The situation ought to be fixed, _IN THE VANILLA, STANDARD GAME_, instead of being left in because it's working "as designed", and the law of unintended consequences be damned. (Changes to gold income, supplies, shield mechanics, research speeds, dormant pretenders, not picking national fortification, etc, all having added to the problem inherent with glamour (mirror images) and stealth already having been somewhat overpowered.)

Then, as far as making things easier for newbies in SP or MP? Give _players_ the same sort of creation option that already exists for AIs, only reversed. Setting a player to expert would give _fewer_ pretender creation points, while novice would give extra points, possibly some bonuses to research, resources, etc. That way they have an easier time trying to keep up, with more than just a SPECIFIC nation or two, and are learning more of the game itself rather than a single overpowered uberbless cheese strategy.

Bah.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Hmmm some of these comments are long drawn out discussions of what should be done, and probably would be done, IF it was agreed that anything was broken.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Every single person in this thread has agreed that Vanheim is overpowered, even the people arguing against a change.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Gandalf, with the exception of you and NT Jedi, there seems to be a consensus that Vanheim and Helheim are overpowered. Some of those in the consensus for some reason or another do not mind the current situation, but 90+% of the rest think it should be addressed. Sounds like agreement to me.

Edi

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I should add that even many of the less experienced people who came into the thread skeptical of the issue have been changing their positions as soon as they started testing the issue and running the numbers in practice, which in my book is an even more powerful argument that there is indeed a problem.

Edi

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Um, I'm probably missing something, but would it take any kind of map commands whatsoever to refuse to put Vanheim in your game?

EDIT: And since the topic is beginning to veer to the Vampire Queen...

It seems to me, the real issue is that now, stuff that boosts a supercombatant like flying, regeneration, ethereal, summon allies, and immortality is being taken much more seriously than in Dom2, and Vampire Queen had so many of them. She still does, but it slammed her down to 50 points per path, dominion 1, (which seems to be a contradiction among other human, dominion 1 units) ethereality was nixed altogether, and what started out as a buffed human mage, a Frost Father more thematic for her paths, became the most expensive pretender in the game and lost a very valuable SC ability. If you look at the Lich (not so much Master Lich) and Ghost King, they both had a bit of what the VQ had, and they both got their cost jacked up corresponding to that 'bit'. Really, it seems to me, this whole thing is in retaliation to the SC craze of Dom2. It's not so much different from the Sphinx becoming truly immobile.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I know this will end up sounding like a "me too" post, but I agree there is a problem and it should be fixed in a patch. Getting a multiplayer community to agree to a mod is much more difficult than grabbing a mod from the subforum in order to whack the AI.

And please stop using arguments like "well, it's not just a MP game" and "ban Vanheim if you don't like it". If your arguments worked, you wouldn't have to repeat them word for word every time someone shoots them down. So my post isn't completely useless, I suggest some of the Amos mods from the mod forum for powerful, fun nations to try against the AI.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I agree in that Helhirdings are very good for the price. I'm not sure how good, exactly, they are. They are better than White Centaurs. I'm not sure if they are good enough to beat everything and everyone.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I personally like having a range of nations, some of which are weaker than the average, and some of which are stronger. I like it that some nations are harder to play with than others. I like it that some require more delicacy, some require more subtlety, and some require more micromanagement.

I also like it that some require less thought, less subtlety, and less micromanagement. Sometimes you just want to play. Sometimes you want the other guy to have an advantage. Sometimes you want a newb to have a chance. Sometimes you want to play against an AI who has a chance of beating you.

I just like having the sheer breadth of the current game. If anything, instead of taking away, let's add to the game. More nations, more spells, more pretenders. Let's add a nation that is even more blunt and overpowered than Vanheim.

I'd argue, also, that even Vanheim isn't obviously overpowered--it takes a bit of thinking, familiarity with the game, some trial and error, and some puttering with the math to come up with the overkill Vanheim strategy. Or else reading a lot of posts.

I vote against the nerf bat.

Now, in keeping with the whole thread: Vans are for wussies. I taunt Van players. Your mother was a rabbit and your father smelled of elderberries. You Vans, ha on you! I Squish you! Ha ha! Yes! Take that!!

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I don't think the glam positions are overpowered either. I would say that people who think there is a problem are more likely to post than those who do not, and that opinion is very much divided.

While I agree that the first argument is vaccuous - I have not seen anyone "shoot it down," or even address it cogently.

As for the second argument - it is entirely sound, since there are a sizeable number of people who play MP and think the glamour positions are fine as they are. Strong, certainly - but so are many other positions. So, if your subgroup thinks the glamour nations are broken, just close them off. There's no reason to trouble everyone else who is enjoying the game as-is just fine.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

On one side we have : take Vanheim with a W9F9 bless and produce Vans, disregard everything else, you'll expand lightning fast, then win 95% of fights vs any comparable-cost army, plus you can raid, hide, attack when and where you choose, play tricks to your leisure.
On the other we have : take another nation, consider carefully how to make an army that could be effective vs vans, how to script it, what spells to use, etc etc..
And maybe if Vanheim is cool he'll fight on your terms,and you'll win. Maybe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

And that'll be "balanced" ? C'mon....

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Please go back and read the thread, and please point out this sizable portion of the MP community that think the 'heims and dual blesses are fine as is. They should have as much interest in the thread. I appreciate your contributions, but please don't attempt to dismiss everyone else's perfectly good arguments. They exist and are valid. Fixes to any game should be made to make people happy and have more fun, and especially should be prioritized for a multiplayer game.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

...and then a neighbor notices you have 50 charriots(monoculture), and sends 1 niefel giant and kills them all.

To anyone who used the acronym SP in this topic:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...?Number=479064

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Wouldnt a Victory Point game on a medium map play out quite differently? I admit that I have very little experince with the small map (10 prov or less per player) blitz-type games.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Since Victory Point games are much more reliant on quick expansion, I'd say Vanehim might actually have more of an advantage there.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

How does helheim do in MP eg. turn 40?
What nations (EA) will beat helheim consistently.Can anyone quantify a 'good player'? Who is the best?

These questions, if answered, would go a long way towards finding a solution.

My opinion:
Helheim F9 W9 is probably stronger than it 'should be'. I would argue that anything that is clearly imbalanced should be restored to a state in balance with other nations. I would do this by adding counters to glamour/F9 W9 (Dispel illusions? Unbless?). I vote in favour of balance and against nerfing.

While I'm at it, I quote a famous objection to the "women against rape" campaign: "are there any women FOR rape?"

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I'm not sure this thread is profitable any more. People are letting their emotions get the better of them, I'm afraid. Two points of view, both valid. Neither are going to agree. Big deal, so what, jeeze. Live with it.

As for you, Gandalf Parker, you're going in my killfile. You are over the top. Too angry by far. This is just a game. Your extremist solutions are shocking. Yes, shocking.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Just to clarify a few things, EA Vanheim has capitol only sacreds that aren't nearly as good a chassis as Van or Helhirdling. Their defense is a respectable 12 before they berserk, but only 7 after. They cost three times as much as elite infantry of other nations. I don't believe that EA Vanheim has sacreds of excessive power.

Helheim and MA Vanheim are different. Van and Helhirdlings both have stock defense of 19. Oiorpata are the next closest sacred with 18 defense. White Centaurs, Equite of the Sacred Shroud, Tiger Riders, Wind Riders, Androphags, and Red Guard all have defense 17. Vanir cavalry have very high defense, particularly with a water blessing. This means that they are very rarely hit in melee, which provides normal troops very few chances to remove their mirror images. All of the previously listed sacred cavalry become very survivable in hand to hand with a water bless; Vanir cavalry have only a small advantage, but it is magnified by their mirror image. Also it is worth noting that of all the sacreds listed above, only Van are not capitol only.

In addition to their excellent tactical attributes (helhirdlings are arguably the very best national troop of any era; van are only slightly worse) they also have superior strategic abilities. The standard MA Vanheim army of a Vanjarl and a half dozen Van is sailing, glamorous, and map move 3. Helheim loses sailing on their Vanjarls, but they have flying Disr and Valkyrie forces to help compensate. One thing that all of the people who have rightly said that Vanir armies are beatable have neglected to mention is that the Vanir nations get to pick their battles. Even if they are beatable by large carefully scripted armies, they are more mobile then those armies and can easily bypass them. EA Abysia's sacreds are very powerful, but they don't appear all through your empire attacking wherever you are weak because they have to move in a visible, ploddingly slow group.

Finally the blesses. Water 9, fire 9 gets mentioned a lot on this thread, and personally I believe that water is the most powerful bless available to high defense sacreds. Fire is the best bless which provides magic weapons. Death and earth blesses are both helpful to casters as well as melee troops, and nature blesses are strong in direct proportion to the hit points of the sacred units, but for nations with basically human hit point sacreds suitable for combat fire 9 water 9 pretenders will be chosen often. I would prefer for the less optimal blesses to be made more useful rather then nerfing the big two. Making the earth blessings armor bonus not contingent on armor, making the save for death weapons at -4, not limiting the magic resistance bonus from an astral bless to 18, and removing the save for blood curse would all be good starts. I'm not sure what a good improvement for the air bless would be, but it needs help too.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

In terms of arguments that the Heims are not overpowered -
So far we have two tracks attempted, neither very successfully.

Some have posted strategies for particular nations to beat the Heims. I've seen Abysia, Niefelheim, C'tis Miasma, Arcosephale (with a very complex idea), and elephant users. That's not enough nations and not enough testing although most are plausible. There would also need to be some counters tested - e.g. elephants are very vulnerable to archers so an archer/Van combo might allow the Heims to deal with that (their defense alone might be enough - failed tramples don't kill very effectively and those easily routed elephants are very painful to the owner)

There was also a claim that hobbit chaff can thrash the Heims. That's a legitimate idea, although you can't always find hobbits, and that also needs some testing. I'm also majorly unimpressed with hobbit meleers - there's an issue with wasted costs.

In terms of patching I have a general principle and two ideas.

First, I think an "emergency patch" should be conservative. Overnerfing is hard to reverse. The specific ideas:

1) weaken glamour so that if the *mirror image* takes a hit it goes poof. Obviously a programming change but it would get rid of the disturbing synergy between mirror images and hard-to-hurt units while still leaving it useful. Thick missle fire would pretty much fry mirrors but the mirrors would still waste a fair number of shots. In addition to balance benefits, this is "logical" to most people.

2) Raise the costs of the sacred units in view of their double-bless benefit. They would no longer have much use otherwise but that's OK - the Heims still have very strong other units. IMO Vanheim in particular seems to have really strong units in general based on how much damage they do me but it doesn't seem a runaway problem.

I'm not sure about the best approach but frankly, def 24 armored units are just too good for the early game. They are excellent in comparison even to fairly high-level summoned troops like lamia, naiads, and devils. If "summoned double-blessed van troops" were a fairly high-level spell it would still be a major target of research, probably ahead of lamias, and that's saying something.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

In what way is it not successful. The initial claim is that a double blessed heim strategy cannot be beaten. I've beaten it, therefore that's an iron-clad argument to the contrary.

The burden of proof is on the people claiming imbalance - not the other way around. The people who are claiming that Vanheim is overpowered are saying that they lost badly and don't see what they could have done differently. That's anecdotal evidence at best. One could conclude from that anecdote that either:

1. Vanheim is overpowered.
2. The faction they were playing is underpowered.
3. The player of vanheim in the example was really good.
4. The player complaining about Vanheim isn't good.
5. Vanheim plays differently than other nations and that repeating standard tactics with or against them is ineffective.

Those are all valid conclusions. But a lot of people are saying "Vanheim is unstoppable!" as if that conclusion was foregone. Well, I've never lost to Vanheim in any era with any nation in multiplayer or single player. So I theorize that one of the other options may be what you're actually looking at.

A strategy that loses badly to Arcocephalian Chariot Archers is hardly "unbeatable" - simply "weird and extreme". Ashen Fields isn't overpowered because people have to fight it with a heavy force of archers and priests - that's just how it works.

The Vanir are virtually immune to sword attacks. That's a big deal. But it's not an insurmountable deal.Every nation can mount an offensive that is not based on melee attacks that have a chance of missing. Area attacks, trampling, battlefield enchantments and more are all within the realm of possibility. The specific tactics to be employed will of course vary nation to nation, but you can put up a defense against the Vanir.

And if you aren't tailoring your troop setups to your opposition, you should lose. Really, the fact that it requires specific planning on your part to win is not a flaw in the game.

-Frank

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Replacing glamour by twist fate + normal stealth is probably doable in a mod and would be a good fix IMO.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

That there seems to be nothing but a strawman of the actual argument put forth, namely that the Van units are overpowered. I didn't see anyone claiming they were unbeatable, but that they are overpowered. That's with the assumption of current costs and abilities.

Yes. More on that shortly.

By the same token, your ability to beat Vanheim is just as anecdotal and cannot be used as evidence for any kind of larger trend. However, when there is direct testimony from a lot of people who are experienced players that the Van and Helheim units are a problem for the reasons listed because they skew games in several ways without the player using them really sacrificing anything, I'm far more likely to take that aggregate testimony as valid than someone like yourself coming out of the woodwork and just dismissing it with a handwave. I know Graeme Dice, Cainehill, Huzurdadi and some of the others here well enough to know that they can beat Vanheim or Helheim in MP, so I don't see where this accusation of incompetence that you're bandying about with that list of yours is coming from.

You're also ignoring what happened when the new people started running set-piece tests to get their own numbers. Not all of them changed their minds or did so immediately, but there was a marked drop-off of the dismissive replies at that point and even some reversals of opinion.

So, it's back to more anecdotal evidence (yours, this time) coupled with a strawman argument (since I at least haven't seen anyone saying Vanheim to be unstoppable, just more powerful than it should be).

Yes, and what you neglect to mention is that the same mechanism that makes them nearly immune to sword attacks also makes them nearly immune to all other forms of physical attack as well and leaves massed mages and powerful battle magic (which takes a long time to get in the kind of numbers we're talking about) as about the only brute force counter. Everything else requires either a ridiculous ratio of units from a cost comparison analysis and/or intricate strategies that are easy to counter and will only work if the Van player does what you want him to do instead.

No, not insurmountable, but did you actually bother reading the posts in the thread where these issues were discussed in more detail?

Yes, generally speaking that is true. But when the situation is such that you generally have to do everything right with complex strategies while your opponent has far more room to make mistakes and all other things being equal, then it bears at least investigating, not an outright dismissal.

Edi

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

This thread moves too fast.It's not 36%. You have to compare the modified values of both nations to each other, not simply the difference in the modifier. You setup gives vanheim 115% gold and ctis 133%. Both can patrol. Anyway, at tax 200% vanheim gets about 850 gold and ctis 990.
You didn't write any heat scale changes for vanheim, so i'm just assuming you set that at -1. At 0 it could maybe explain how you arrive at 36& (though no, not really) but that'd not only be giving 5% income away, it'd also mean paying 40 points for it.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I agree with this post entirely. Vans in particular are overpowered. The ability to choose where you fight (glamour) in conjuction with a non-capital only production gives this unit too much benefit for its cost. The solution is to up the cost slightly with the next patch. The thing we should be arguing is how much the cost should be increased.

As far as improving the Air Bless, I'd really love to see A9 be 100% shock resistance.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I don't agree that they're overpowered, but then I haven't done any multi-playing with them. In certain directions, yes, they are very powerful, but they have exploitable weaknesses-weaknesses exploitable by most, if not all, nations. What I have done is discover that their are plenty of strategies out there-the most direct and obvious to use heavy tramplers-which beat Helheim. I still think this whole thread is premature. I'd like a chance to multi-player with them and against them, for one thing, but I don't feel I know enough about the game as a whole to give a good objective opinion yet, or to put up a good fight, not because Helheim's strong, but because I don't know enough. That's going to take time.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I am very busy at work... so only time for one short response. Other responses coming with time.

The reason for having an imbalanced nation is because the game has enough optional nations(over fifty) where it's strong enough to have an OPTIONAL powerful nation. Otherwise how many nations/races does Illwinter need before a very powerful nation can be introduced... 100 nations, 500 nations, 8000 nations?? Who is saying Illwinter can NEVER introduce a very powerful OPTIONAL nation?? To demand constant balance from a game growing with content limits the options available for gamers and developers. I'd hate for the developers to be delayed on releasing future nations because they need more time testing its balance.

For those unaware I do voice my opinion for unbalanced issues which effect the entire game... as seen from AOW:SM and the flying draconian heroes which was NERFED. = LINK The Vanheim issue clearly ONLY effects the entire game when Vanheim is chosen with a bless strategy! This Vanheim issue DOES NOT effect the entire game unless you choose to include them and Dominions_3 has grown with enough nations to have an optional powerful nation.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

By the way, my whole point of playing against SP isn't to say that SP is in any way a model of MP, it's not. It's to compare the troops side by side-and I've set all Helheim opponents to F9/W9-and see how they do in the AI combat environment. You can't tell how a human is going to think by doing that, but you can tell a lot about how the game works, and how I respond to the Helheim nation, itself. Objective results are several degrees harder to produce in a multi-player game. All I want to know right now is how the cost of Helheim blessed troops compares with the cost of other troops, how strong their province defense is, how they hold up to arrows, tramplers, magic, etc. I want a chance to compare each and every nation in SP, and then I can have a better understanding of MP.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Vans are effectively immune to melee and quite resistant to missle fire because of glamour+armor+shield+speed. That's both the basic attacks of Dominions. Other stuff is generally not available until level 4/5 research, which is well along, and the magic requires a good supply of potent casters, which is also hard to come by. Trampling is pretty iffy and shouldn't work generally - one guy did test chariot archers and they were a flop. Each van needs to get trampled 12 times and that's quite a lot of successful tramples. In any case, the majority of nations have no AOEish attack at all for some time, and that's a huge problem.

Tailoring should NOT be necessary. Trivially, if two untailored forces encounter each other, one will win! If a particular nation always requires tailoring to be stopped, it's too strong, and if tailoring isn't even available to most nations, it simply has to be fixed.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I noticed the theory that trampling is a handy rock-scissors-paper style counter to F9W9 helhirdings. So I made a test.

Side one: F9W9 bless.
One holy3 priest, to cast divine blessing and smite. I wont count his cost. 40 helhirdings: 3000 gold, 480 resources.

Side two: F9W9 bless which doesn't matter
One holy3 priest, casting smite for symmetry's sake. I wont count his cost. 100 EA ctis lizard chariots: 5000 gold, 2600 resources.

No commanders were harmed in this test.
Fight one: chariots defend, 29 out of 40 helhirdings die, 95 out of 100 Lizard chariots die.
Fight two: chariots defend, 16 out of 40 helhirdings die, 98 out of 100 Lizard chariots die.
Fight three: chariots defend, 14 out of 40 helhirdings die, 88 out of 100 Lizard chariots die.
Fight four: chariots defend, 5 out of 40 helhirdings die, 75 out of 100 Lizard chariots die.
Fight five: chariots defend, 39 out of 40 helhirdings die, 54 out of 100 Lizard chariots die.
In this last fight, 2925 gold were lost for helhirdings. 2700 gold lost for chariots.

So, for only 167% of the cost and 5400% of the recources, you might once in a while destroy a F9W9 helhirding army with lizard chariots. Not worth calling a counter.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Hm... How about Elephants? Chariots are girly tramplers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Deleted

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

NT just hides behind the fact the game should have one powerful nation. The nation can be modded easily in singleplayer. Multiplayer has hell trying to get everyone to use one mod,even one that everyone agrees

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

The problem is they are twice as expensive as chariots, only compounding the disparity.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Mr Trollman,

How about you set up a battle and run it? So far, everyone who has tried to fight a vanjarl + 25 van army has demonstrated they are overpowered. Please don't talk about your theories. Let's see some evidence. Feel free to utilize your level 2 AOE spells because I think that is quite reasonable. How about using Arcoscephale MA (Old Kingdom)? They have both elephant tramplers and chariots for you to choose, plus a wide variety of magic for your level 2 AOE's.

The pattern here has been that after people try testbeds, they come around to seeing that vans are overpowered.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I would like to see FrankTrollman do a test as well. He has an incredible grasp of how magic works in Dom3, or atleast he seems to in the nooby game where he was pwning everyone.

I think if there is a person that can find a definate magical way to counter a heim in the early part of the game, it would be FrankTrollman.

Midgard (LE Vanheim)
 

True. I think all people are complaining mostly about Helheim and MA Vanheim. I would like to add, that even if EA Vanheim and Helheim would be toned down, IMHO it's important that these changes would not affect Midgard. (LE Vanheim)

Midgard is significantly weaker than Helheim or MA Vanheim. Their mages are much worse on the battlefield(they don't have neither air 3 van commanders, not earth 2-4 dwarves), they don't have flying sacred valkiries, and all other Midgard's national troops are relatively weak for the LA and their prices and stats, comparable to other nations. Plus because other nations have generally much better national troops in LA than in EA/MA, the advantage of van's sacred is correspondently smaller.

So personally I am ok with increasing price of sacred for Helheim and ME Vanheim a bit, but I would strongly vote against doing the same for Midgard. Notice that all people on this threat only complain about Helheim and ME Vanheim, not Midgard. If some sort of nerf will happen, it would be sad if Midgard would also be nerfed just because they also have "van" troops, despite the fact that this nation it doesn't deserve it.

Re: Midgard (LE Vanheim)
 

A nation that comes as part of the basic game is not optional, except in single player, where game balance is virtually irrelevant.

Re: Midgard (LE Vanheim)
 

I agree with you, Corwin. Although Vanheim MA vans need to be more expensive, I do not think Midgard LA vans merit the same treatment. You leave out one of the most important reasons why Vanheim MA vans are underpriced compared to Midgard LA - Midgard vans are limited to capital only production. I actually don't mind seeing viable Vanheim MA double bless rush strategies. However, I think there needs to be a penalty for gambling on the double bless rush. Since you can mass produce Vanheim MA vans from multiple provinces then choose the location for the battle with glamour, there is no down side to the rush at the current price point for middle age vans. They need to be more expensive so that if you can catch the Vanheim player and kill the van army, that player will be devastated. Since they can rebuild from all over, taking the capital isn't a viable response.

I think the solution is to increase the resource cost of Vanheim MA vans.
The spear wielding hirdman has a spear, helmet, chain mail hauberk, and shield for 20 resources.
The valkyrie has a spear, cap, chain mail cuirass, and shield for 15 resources. This is a 25% lower resource cost for pretty much similar gear. I'm okay with that though because valkyries are limited to capital-only production.
The van has a light lance, cap, chain mail cuirass, shield, javelin, and horse for 16 resources. This makes no sense!!! Here's a unit that has a horse, a lance, and a javelin -- much more than a valkyrie for only 1 more resource and for 4 LESS than the hirdman. I think this should be bumped up to 32 resources.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Inigo,

Why not just have MA Vanheim Vans limited to capitol-only ?
To me it'll be sufficient to rebalance MA Vanheim.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

That seem really more theory than practice : producing 3-5 Vans/turn the *heims can field 40 vans or HH from turn 10 or so, so really very few magic has been researched by anyone. Maybe one path to 3 and another to 1, 2 at best..

Then you have tramplers, that kills mirror images, and the Vans "are no longer effectively immune to swords or bows". But you still have to find something able to overcome 24 def (swords), and a way to protect your archers from 39-speed charges. What can hit 24-def units and is available turn 10-15 ? Nothing...

Even then you're talking of "Vanir lines". But Vans don't line up, usually I use 6-Vans groups quite largely spread out, using map borders, with groups set to attack archers and rear. With their amazing speed, they are quite rarely, if ever, grouped, and will just avoid a good part of enemmy army before wreaking havoc on the rear. Big AoE Evocs, even if available will usually kill more friendlies than Vanir in such a configuration.

Lastly noone in the "non-overpowered" side ever mentioned AFAIK that Vanheim *has* magic, and potent one ! Van-leaders all can banish skellspam easily, and as soona s they hit Evo-2 Shockwave is awfully effective with Vanjarls, and I don't even mention the obvious LB, then OL and TS !

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

yep, in my test they do banish skels, but NOT easily...
more dangerous that Vans have little 3E dwarves for Bladewind http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Sure, I even forgot to mention it ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif