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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
If you want to stick it on my server let me know.
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
My latest thought is that I'm going to give slaughtermasters a 100% DFE. This will make them slightly better at research (not so much it really matters though), will allow them a little bit of site searching (again, negligible) and a little bit of forging. It will also differentiate them somewhat in terms of some summons I'm giving Ogres.
B3E1 = Dig Mawpit. A mawpit is an immobile commander much like a monolith or sacred statue, though it has not slots. It has H2 allowing it to blood sacrifice in place of a slaughtermaster (note ogres cannot preach). It will also have domspread 1. Of course in combat it will be useless. You dig these to get upkeep free blood sacrificers and to push your dom, which will be the ogres new mid and lategame strat. B3F1 = Summon Mawfiend. A mawfiend is an ogre sized demon born from the inferno of the maw's arrival. More details on these a bit later. B4D1 = Abomination of the Maw. These are the aformentiond 'mawbominations'. They kill the populace at an alarming rate, are masters of pillaging and in combat are virtually unstoppable wrecking balls, with high mr, multiple attacks (with drain), amazing prot etc. They will be size 4, but don't be confused, they could tear a slavegiant in half. The drawbacks is they have either insanity or shattered soul, cost a lot and have no slots. The premise is they are there to unleash on the world in the lategame, trashing enemy territory (and temples) and facilitating a win through sheer stompyness or domspread. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
Sounds good.
I think you want to be careful with domspread 1. If the things are cheapish, you could spam them ridiculously. It might be better to have them holy 3 with no domspread, so that you can only have one per province producing dominion. The difficulty with Ogres is like you were saying the other day, that they don't grow much more powerful as the game goes on. Your abomination of the maw sounds good for that, but how are they going to research it? My worry is that having a powerful rainbow research pretender gives an ogre nation such a ridiculous advantage that it becomes non-optional. An ogre nation with a rainbow pretender might will be able to reach the high level summons in half as many turns as one without. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
That is true, however the abomination will be limited not only by research level (which will still be one ogres can reach without a dedicated pretender) as it will also have fairly high cost in blood slaves and it will require a boosted slaughtermaster in order to get it. Possibly even B5D1.
I did consider making the mawpits simple H3 blood sacrificers, but I'm not hugely keen on them casting divine bless and smite during battles. They still wouldn't give Ogres a legitimately frightening dompush ability either imo. Whatever I choose to do with them, I'll make sure they cost an appropriate amount. After all if you have to spend a lot of blood slaves on them, that's necessarily less of your nasty troops you're fielding. Another option and one that feels like something of a cop out, is giving ogres a national 'mercenary mage' commander with inflated cost (for what he does) but access to more paths (probably like F1 with 100% FEA and 100% FEAWSD). The butcher remains a better longterm researcher, but these guys would be better for rushing to a certain spell. I don't want to do that though because it's quite lame, no matter how I justify it. Regarding the rainbow pretender - yes, he is a clear choice for ogres and thematically that's a bit annoying. However it's good in a way that they can make full use of a slightly odd pretender pick like an awake great sage that does research. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
Maybe instead of a mercenary mage you could have some maw demon summon which is quite magically powerful? That would add a bit more late-game scaling.
I realise that wouldn't solve the research issue though. Maybe you could reduce their research malus a bit? |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
I could, but it's a pretty major feature of the race, the fact they can't research worth a damn.
This is going to come up with dwarfs as well, because they don't even use magic in Warhammer. The idea is that since Ogres will really only want to research blood and construction, the research malus isn't such a crippling problem,.. I guess the same could be somewhat true of dwarfs,... well I'll think of something clever. I'm definitely giving Ogres a hero with some nice magic - an Ogre Mage trained in the courts of Cathay after his intellect was dramatically enhanced through their advanced eastern alchemy. In terms of magical diversity, they have the heliophagii I guess, along with whatever their pretender can summon. With the extra minor paths on slaughtermasters they should have a little more chance of branching also. They pose a tricky problem. I'll implement the changes I've thought up and see how they play with those. The graphic for the abominations is going to have to be something special though. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
I like that the Ogres struggle, magically. I think they should-it's a big part of what makes them interesting as a Nation. Dom3 already has (compared to it's unit and Nation diversity) an extremely limited magic system, in that there's only 8 paths, total. And most Nations are already able to get atleast *some* access to most if not all of the paths, without Pretender interference.
Adding in bootstrapping, empowerment, booster items, the ability to convert Astral to other gem types, etc. and having 8 separate magical paths loses a lot of it's meaning. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
Here is the latest thinking on the Ogre upgrade:
The idea is to add a daemonic/chaos influence to Ogres which matches what blood magic does in dom3 and makes them more interesting mid and late game. When the Great Maw impacted it unleashed a huge amount of energy and the area around it, known as the wastes, is still rife with Chaotic energy. I'm not changing the story of the maw and saying it's a chunk of warpstone or anything, but it is, at least in part, of Chaos. Countering this is the more shamanic mountains/wilds magic of the Ogres' new home which has roots far back before the impact of the Maw. Slaughtermasters: Will now be H2B3 with EF50%. In recent years Slaughtermasters have begun to split into 3 types. Normal vanilla ones (1/2 with just B3), those with a connection to earth from which the Maw emerged (1/4 with E1) and those with a connection to the burned wasteland and chaos fallout around the maw (1/4 with F1). The earth enabled SMs can dig new mawpits. The fire enabled SMs can bind Henchfiends and later even Fiends of the Waste. This change is done. Mawpits: Immobile holes in the ground surrounded by jutting teeth/bones/rocks. They are simply H3 and 0 gold upkeep making them fantastic for blood sacrificing and little else. I'm hoping to stop them from smiting/banishing somehow. Their summoning cost in terms of blood slaves is reasonably low, they don't need to be researched and Ogre temples are incredibly cheap (100 gold) since they can't preach or anything. Code is done, graphic is currently a placeholder and might be that way for a while. Henchfiends: Researchers (by Ogre standards) with B1 + DF100% magic, they allow the Ogre Kingdoms to channel blood slave income into research, but still the nation won't have good research unless you /really/ push for it. They are spined demons with robes and are completely inedible (even by Ogre standards). They appear to SMs who are compelled to roam the wastes around the maw and offer power in exchange for blood spilled on the blackened sands. They are then bound to the SMs and do their bidding, patiently exerting influence on the Ogres as a race. They aren't sacred because they aren't 'orthodox' children of the maw. I've done the code for these guys, I'll just give them a simple graphic and they're done. Fiends of the Waste: Badasses. These are Ogre sized daemons of magical and physical prowess. Think somewhere below a heliophagii or Verminlord in stats (at least D2F2B2 magic) They are somewhat ogrish but have no mouth, many eyes, horns and the trademark backward knees. It is rare for a SM to bind one - only Groth Onefinger the hero has bound several - and they require a vast sacrifice of burned bodies to summon. Again they are a corrupting influence on the Ogre race, drawing it towards chaos, and aren't sacred. I want to do a tasty graphic for them so they'll take a while. Yhetee Shamans: Summonable by N2 hunters. These are shamans of the mountainous wilds with low nature, earth and water magic (I'm thinking W1N1E1 + 100% WNE). Their research isn't handicapped like Ogres but isn't great. The attractive thing about them is they get three nice national spells to cast - cold immunity buff for Ogres, a spray of ice/rock shards and a howl which attracts sabretusks rather than wolves (if possible to code). I've coded them, the graphic is easy but I haven't done the spells, though those shouldn't take long. Abominations of the Maw: A straightforward blood summon at the top end of the gut magic/gorgers/mawtribe spectrum. I've talked about these guys before. Total juggernauts, also with dom spread. They are out of the box SCs that you can't do anything to upgrade (no slots) and will be economical, but straightforward (no flight etc). They make the world dread dealing with you because they are extremely destructive (causing unrest, pop death etc). I have almost finished the code, the graphic will take a while. I think I'm going to have them be slavegiants who were dragged to the Maw, forced to gaze upon it and covered in armour/weapons much like pitfighters. So they'll be size 6 and all that. Mawgut: Another commander summon in the maw/gut magic line (so blood + holy). Butchers who have given themselves over the the Maw - their gut splits open and becomes a maw like mouth which they must feed. Consequently they grow much, much fatter. They are B4 H3 with berserk, great hp and regen + an awesome devour attack which also drains life. They also spread dom and tend to eat population. No research from these. I've started the graphic, the code is nearly done. Feedback plox! |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
All sounds very awesome, dramatic and appropriately scary to me, although the Mawgut sounds a bit yucky!
Suggestion on how to prevent the Mawpit casting battle spells: Create a spell called Fatigue Self or something which does that - hits the caster with a load of fatigue damage, e.g. 180. Then set #onebattlespell Fatigue Self for the Mawpit, so that in battle it will always be asleep. You could also give it negative reinvig, if that works (like clockwork horrors) so that it doesn't wake up in long battles. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
If you want to prevent the Mawpits from being useful in combat, here's some ideas:
1) you could give them ridiculous encumberance and negative reinvogration -5 so that once they pass out the from the spellcasting, fatigue they regain from resting is negated by the reinvogration. But that's kinda hacky and unaesthetic solution. 2)I'd probably make them #onebattlespell a custom spell that would give them 100 fatigue combined with the negative reinvogration, but since that requies some hacking, I can understand if you don't want go that route. 3) Give them 1hp and secondaryshape with weaker magic. Then give the firstshape poisoncloud and no poisonres so that it will kill itself on the first turn. Or #onebattlespell that will make it kill itself (like Shockwave or something like that). EDIT: Ninja'd by Llama! |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
Why not just have reinvig -100? Fatigue from negative reinvig seems to be capped at 200, so the mawpit wouldn't die of fatigue from it.
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
If banishment, sermon of courage, blessing and smite aren't 100 prec (and thus automatic hit) I think giving it 0 prec might stop if from casting any of them. I don't mind it divine blessing.
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
Smite is 100 prec, I'm afraid.
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
Would it cause any problems if I reduced smite to 99 prec?
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
Hmm, so I have been messing around.
It turns out you can't #onebattlespell to either kill yourself in a non-poisony way, or fatigue yourself. Or at least I couldn't make it work. This is very sad indeed. Further, it turns out that you can't set encumbrance over 99. Poo. The only way I can think of, which is nasty, is to onebattlespell 1 poison damage (I can give you code for that if you want), have only 1 hp, and have a second form with negative magicboost. This is fine, apart from the fact that the main form has to have only 1 hp, which is very odd looking. It does, however, work properly both in offense and defense. The alternative is to set encumbrance to 99, and have it cast no more than 2 spells/battle. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
Gosh, lots of posts since I started testing.
If you don't mind it Divine Blessing, then it probably isn't horrible for it to do a couple of smites either, so long as it doesn't keep smiting all battle. So giving it 99 encumbrance might be the best option. If you give it negative reinvig then its fatigue keeps on growing without limit (far beyond 200), but does it no actual damage. So that's an option, but it's displeasing to me. You could try setting smite to 99 precision. I personally would not be too keen on that, because it means the mod is changing things which are outside of its supposed sphere of influence. I think precision 100 actually means something special (always hit the target, or perhaps only always hit the target square), so 99 is qualitatively different. Also, do you think it would actually stop it casting it? It won't have much else to do. 99 encumbrance might be justifiable thematically. Say the energies building up in the pit all can be released in spells at the start of a battle but are soon exhausted. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
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Edit: In conclusion, when you want to fool the casting AI, #nextspells are the way to go. It could also be possible to make a spell that AI would "simply" love and spam like there's no tomorrow. Don't see much uses for that kind of spell thought. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
I believe, though I may be wrong, that once you have 0 prec (due to being blinded for instance) you can /only/ cast 100 prec stuff. So I wanted to set the mawpit to 0 prec to stop him casting anything but divine bless, which would be 100 prec. At 99 prec smite would still hit 99.9999999999999% of the time, but you're right it would be slightly different.
I don't mind them smiting that much I guess, it just seems like it could be quite annoying. I'm trying to make them something you want 1 of in several provinces but never have any reason to have more than 1 of in a province. So no slave generation, no preaching, no domspread, no banish spam,... smite,.. maybe isn't a big problem. 99 enc is fine with me for that reason. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
Hmm. Can you have a #onebattlespell that provides a penalty to magic levels, like (foo) power but in reverse?
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
I was wondering that Gregstrom, but I don't think you can.
Burn, good thinking. I'd test it now but I'm just leaving to go away for a couple of days. I might have a go when I get back, because having an effective "battle form" (via onebattlespell Kill Self and a secondshape) would be a handy thing generally. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
1 Attachment(s)
Ogre Butcher Hero and current Prophet of the Maw: Skrag the Slaughterer.
Which looks better - with Gnoblar or without? Yes, that's a chef's hat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com//atta...1&d=1236456272 |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
With the Gnoblar, please! Glad to see Ogres getting some (more) love.
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
With gnoblar!
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
i get bad start site when i try to use the newist version?
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
Also if you play with the Lizardmen mod and the Ogres, they share a startsite number so you'll have the error with both mods enabled at once.
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
Yeah it's easily fixed though, just change the site numbers. Obviously it will fixed in the next version :]
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
So I'm currently working on the big Ogre update I've had planned forever. I won't release it until they have:
Skrag hero * Henchfiend researcher / low level mage summon * Yhetee Shaman summon * Mawpit immobile blood saccer summon Mawfiend thug / mid level mage summon Mawgut thug/raider summon (kills caster) Those marked with * are finished already. They have also received a serious recosting of their troops - their guys are now bargains, with around 15% off most gold prices. The non mage commanders are also a lot cheaper. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
1 Attachment(s)
Mawgut WiP.
The caster takes a chunk of flesh from the mouth of the Great Maw itself and swallows it. Mere hours later, his digestive system is torn apart, his ribs crack open and his belly splits to reveal a horrifying maw. Mawguts are basically possessed ex-Slaughtermasters who live only to devour. Population, smaller units, their own hands when they stray too close, hostile magic - all devoured. They're really, really hard to kill with superb mr, loads of hp, reinvig and regen. Spread dominion and have a serious fear stat also. But they're slow and don't have good slots and they're mindless, and they aren't subtle, so they can be dealt with. Trick is doing so before you lose several provinces and a chunk of population to them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...4&d=1246567845 |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
That Mawgut sounds awesome--I can't wait to try it out. The whole nation has this "what more could you want?" feel to it, where it's almost hard to decide what to research.
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
This nation is truly awesome :D I can't believe what I've missed trying it this late.
By the way, do we report possible typos or bugs here? If so, I would like to notify about Gorgers description's part where it says "waprstone-laced". I believe it is suppose to say "warpstone-laced". If not, then my apologies :) The Butcher hero looks great, I would prefer the one with the gnoblar. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
Thanks Joelz, I'll fix that typo for the next version. The update they get next will be pretty substantial and change the way Ogres are played by giving them more of a midgame.
I'm glad you've enjoyed it! |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
All continues well with the Ogres. Testing shows in the next update their ability to dompush will be top tier, up there with LA Marig.
I'm working on the Mawfiends right now, who will be thuggy demons with decent fire/death magic. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
What makes LA Marig so good at dom pushing, besides the H3s and inquisitors? Can they sacrifice?
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
Yep, they can.
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
1 Attachment(s)
Work in progress. The mawfiend in the middle has two versions - which looks better?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1248384877 |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
IMO the Mawfiend whose hands and feet are covered in blood looks the best. Plus it is just more thematic :D
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
Squeamish as I am, I agree with Burn.
Looking good. |
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Its a strong sprite. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
For what it's worth I like the bloody-handed one... I'm going to agree with bandarlover also, it feels more thematic.
Although, looking at it next to a normal ogre, it seems a bit... lacking in bulk? I mean, obviously a lot of the ogre's bulkiness is in fat, but despite how nasty the mawfiend looks, it looks just a bit wimpy when put up next to an ogre. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
1 Attachment(s)
Please don't download the file attached to this post - this is for testing purposes.
The update to the mod with come within a few hours and will appear on the first post. I'll let you know when I upload it. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.7 NEW
Version 0.8 is finally up and it's a pretty huge update in terms of gameplay - now I think Ogres have a decent midgame and hell, maybe even a lategame if they really crank the blood and have a strong pretender.
GO GET IT ON THE FIRST POST. Please do feel free to comment on anything regarding the mod - without feedback there's no way I'd be able to keep modding effectively. -- version 0.8 -- TWEAK - Gorger Pitfeast B3 -> B4 -- TWEAK - Scrapapult goldcost 170 -> 150 -- CONTENT - Mawfiend summon added -- CONTENT - Mawpit summon added for B3E1, H3 blood saccer, no slots, no upkeep -- CONTENT - Mawgut summon/transformation added -- TWEAK - Braugh's weapon now raises those it slays -- CONTENT - Yhetee shaman summon added -- CONTENT - Skrag the Slaughterer hero added -- TWEAK - Tyrants reduced to 80 leadership -- TWEAK - Slaughtermasters get FE 100% pick -- TWEAK - Gnoblar single recruits added as option, new 'flung scrap' missile weapons -- TWEAK - New costs for commanders in line with new philosophy -- TWEAK - Reduced costs of most recruits -- CONTENT - Henchfiend summon added as researcher with access into death/fire -- TWEAK - Ogre Temples, being pits in the ground, now only 100 gold -- TWEAK - Butcher and Slaughtermaster mr boosts -- TWEAK - Gnoblar got some patrolbonus to reflect their multiunit status |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.8 FINALLY
Looks fantastic Sombre! :cool:
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.8 FINALLY
Amazing work, Sombre. I noticed just looking around that the Mawpit ritual has so long a descriptive text that it gets cut off.
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.8 FINALLY
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.8 FINALLY
Thanks for this! I only wish it had been out before this last MP game I'm in playing as the Ogre's. I'm in a bit of a bad spot, but my 1 army keeps crushing everything Arga Dis (another great Sombre mod btw) keeps throwing at me. I think I'm most excited to see you give them a better mid game and hopefully some decent late game stuff too.
Keep up the good work Sombre :D |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.8 FINALLY
Yeah without this update the Ogres really suffered in the midgame. As soon as your opponent gets his key RL4-6 spells, you start to get pounded.
This update also gives the ogres an even stronger early game. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.8 FINALLY
lol well, I'm prolly boned in the mp game I'm in then, but I'm sure the Arga Dis player already thinks the Ogre early game is too strong. With 1 army of just over 100 units, plus 1 giant and the hero slave driver unit, I've crushed 2 200+ unit armies of Argan hoplites and Gilgans with minimal losses. I'm just too small and he has sooooo many provinces already that I'm sure it's only a matter of time before he grinds me down though.
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Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.8 FINALLY
Yet again I'm here to report a bug way too late.
Your Ogre Kingdoms mod seems to overwrite the Lantern shield's script which summons several Corpse Candles around the edges of battle, replacing them with Gorgers. Might have something to do with national hero who summons few gorgers around the battle just like with the lantern shield. I think this hero was called Skrag the Slaughterer. By the way, aren't you going to finish this mod? The title still says version 0.8. |
Re: Ogre Kingdoms - MA Warhammer Nation - 0.8 FINALLY
Ah I forgot about that item. Well, no matter. Small bug.
Yes I plan on finishing the mod. As in, no more content, just tweaks. But it's finished when it's finished. The version number is irrelevant. |
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