Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Digress - _three_ further mod nations - don't forget the Tomb Kings!

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Curses. Looks like I'm getting kicked off this computer for today :/. Bob, do you want to reschedule or find another opponent?

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

If you gave the Markata stealth that would fix it. Give them a flier, that fixes it. Nations need Anti-Raid power. Stealth troops do it. Fliers do it. PD does it.

Main-line mage backed battle forces should smash any PD flat. But we aren't talking "main-line". We are talking non-castle, and cheap at that.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Tomorrow, an hour later than right now, is fine. But really, send me a time and I'll see if I can play it then.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

How is stealth good for Anti-Raiding?


Raiding, sure. Though Markata would be bad at that, too. Unless you used them in huge numbers, which makes it hard to sneak...

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Or, I can play in 2 hours if you still are willing to test the bandar vs ulm theory.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

At last, a MA thread complaining about some nation other than Ulm.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Believe it or not, if Bandar doesn't have elephants (a rather broken unit anyway), I think MA Ulm has a very strong chance of winning the matchup.

Also, I think Lord_Bob is making a different claim than what some people think. Essentially, if you look at it as IF Monkey nations had better PD, they would win MORE games. It doesn't look as properly constructed.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Well yeah, but that's pretty much a truism.

If X had better Y, they would win more games. Isn't that true for any X and Y? (Though some things might be so trivial as to have no effect.)

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Ok, let's take a basic scenario. You have main armies, each on the edge of the the nations border. Both can attack two different provinces of the other player. The player that is playing T'ien Ch'i buys 55 gold worth of PD in his two bordering provinces(a 400 gold army each) and then rushes one of the Patala provinces. The two worst cases for Patala are if Patala hops to the side and T'ien Ch'i charges, T'ien Ch'i takes a Patala province, and Patala takes nothing. If T'ien Ch'i attacks the other province, while Patala charges, then Patala still must face the 400 gold army, while T'ien Ch'i is unharmed by the Patala PD. Worse, now T'ien Ch'i's main army can now attack significantly deeper into Patala than Patala's main army can move to block. Every 15 soldier force broken off siezes a province, builds 10 PD(400 gold worth of soldiers) and then rejoins the main army the turn after. Should Patala break up it's soldiers to attack these province.. oh wait, it can't, because it needs at least an 600 gold army to dispatch 55 gold worth of PD without more casualities than the PD is worth. Of course, it CAN do this, but it is loosing money at it. Meanwhile, T'ien Ch'i occassionally loses a 150 gold force... but deprives it's enemy of far more income than those 150 gold of soldiers are worth. The best case that can happen for Patala is that it guesses right, but doesn't have to face T'ien Ch'i's main army with 400+ gold of PD tacked on. Basically, this will only happen 37.5% of the time. Of course, T'ien Ch'i can still win that fight.

Or T'ien Ch'i can send out a 150 gold raiding force, and sit in the province it is in, hoping to be attacked with the Dominion bonus it has and 400 gold of PD. If Patala fails to hop to the side, the next turn T'ien Ch'i's main army joins the raiding force... and maybe T'ien Ch'i buys a ridiclious amount of PD hoping that Patala attacks and maybe not.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

You may want to reread the title of the thread. "Why patala, bandar log, and kailasa NEVER WIN is pretty cut and dried in terms of meaning.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Yes it is.

I even posted an example, which, of course, hasn't been commented on.

Re: Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN
 

Oh, and another thing. That PD is the same PD that protects the capital and prevents rushing. I know that it is "only" 400/500 gold in troops for most nations. But in the starting turns, that is the equivelent of a whole turn worth of income.
With obvious resource restrictions, more than a turn. So it is possible to rush Bandar Capital one turn earlier than other nations, which is bad. Excluding imbalanced bless rushes/ect.
NOTE:
Lightly armoured PD that can still do damage is just the ticket versus elephant rushes... another thing that Patala doesn't have.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Err... so? Only relevant if both nations are equal in toher respects. If Tien Chi could never win a battle with Patala (not true, I know,) then, eventually, Patala would reach about as many provinces as armies. At the same time, Tien Chi would get the remaining provinces, and spend the gold on troops. Thse troops, however, would e absolutely useless because they could not win a fight. It would be like throwing stones across an ocean: number of stones doesn't make much difference.

Of course, that is an extreme example, but again, it demonstrates that nations are not balanced by PD alone. If you modified the original to something like: very weak PD has a disproportionate effect on nation balance, so much so that otherwise balanced nations such as kailasa become weaker than they should be, and in fact have difficulty winning games (maybe), then I MIGHT agree.

Although I'm still not sure that Kailasa eg. is actually a weak nation.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Oh, and I'll play you to, EvilHomer. LA Patala versus LA T'ien Ch'i in order to painfully and dramatically demonstrate the difference. But really, what honor is there in winning a fight I cannot lose?

But then again, what fun is there in playing a game I can lose?

Hopefully, this will stop the trash talk.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

In my opinion LA Tienchi have a clear advantage vs Patala, but it isn't a matter of PD. It's a matter of Patala's troops being pretty sucky, especially vs massed composite bows and of Patala basically needing to reach the late game to do well, something that's very hard in a duel. Then again my impression of you is that you massively overestimate the importance of PD and probably aren't much good in MP, so who knows?

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

This is true. Patala is a late game clam horder, not a eary rusher. If they played on a 1200 province map...

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

wow, I have made 0 posts claiming that LA patala is better than LA Tien chi. You have however made several post about how easy you can win with MA Ulm vs MA Bandar log. Now you seem to want to avoid that match up, funny.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Yeah, come on Lord_Bob - if you have any conviction at all in your original claims you HAVE to play MA Ulm vs Bandar Log - and of course it will be impossible for you to lose, so you may as well.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

This whole thread is based on PD. Last I checked, it was still legal and acceptablee to bolster PD with recruitable troops.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Exactly, this thread was about difference in PD strengths, and not about difference in the national recruitable units. "Can never win" was sort of an universal statement, however. It never was "can lose in certain setups". That's obvious.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Oh I can lose MA Ulm versus MA Bandar Log. Granted, MA Ulm has very poor PD, specializing in Arbalests who will kill the rest of your own soldiers for the enemey, so that has nothing to do with my claims, but, I really don't think I will lose.

I said I was ready yesterday, and I am ready today. Anytime after I make this post for the next 10 hours. I can also do from the time I make this post now, till whenever tommorrow.

It's nice that the frothing has settled down when I throw out LA T'ien Ch'i versus LA Patala. Did you know that LA T'ien Ch'i gets 2 composite bow shooters per point of PD? One of which is light calvarly! After 20, they also get a Heavy Calvary(which also has a composite bow!)! Maybe that should be switched to an Ancestor Vessel, like Mictlan has Jaguars, in order to achieve "balance". Heh, heh.

Oh, and I am perfectly aware that I am messing up my diplomacy by doing this. I however, think that the game shouldn't be broken by a trivial sub-feature that can be corrected with no programming effort at all. You apparently think it should.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

I wonder if Lord_Bob only is here to make people upset, say strange stuff and generally mess with everyone, given that he recently made a post accusing people of cheating as he had a capital just three moves away.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

The reason I fear LA Patala vs LA Tien chi has nothing to do with pd. Basically LA Tien chi has good bless troops and access to astral magic (LA Patala is very weak against astral magic). I do honestly belive the match up is not at all decided since Patala has some good tactics up their sleave (elephants, much better battle magic), but LA TC has a slight advantage.

I could probably play later on today, in maybe 5-6 hours from now. Send a pm and we can arrange details.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

@Lord_Bob

If i was able to set up some dom3, then you can join a game on 85.2.155.98:8888 where i play bandar log, and you can play whatever you like, if i should loose it wont be because the PD.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Doesn't this disprove the whole "Bandar Log NEVER WINS" thing?
Well, with no programming effort at all, you can make a mod that makes Bandar's PD stronger.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

And surprisingly in my next game I have 4 provinces I can capture without ending up adjacent, by adjacent I mean RIGHT NEXT TO an enemy capital. You can confirm this with Coobe and Yucky. 4 WHOLE PROVINCES! WOO-HOO! I also started out with one of those provinces being a "dead-end" province, forcing my army to turn around, and the other two having barbarians! Yes, that "coveted" corner position is serving me well!

NOTE:
Because I'm not quite sure where Utgard's capital is, I may have had ONE other province I could have taken.... But by the time I could even see it, actually by the earliest possible time I could have taken it, since I needed two turns of Rangers to beat the barbarian, and I took it on Turn 3 using my Black Priest research mage as a commander, Utgard had taken my only possible "fifth province". Currently, I am hoping that Patala will let me out of my corner and have 5 other provinces, but since one of them is adjacent to his capital, I'm thinking he is going to attack me. At that point he can enjoy taking another player down with him as we both lose. Of course, my other option was settling in to my 5 province empire(including capital). So my other option involves me losing to.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

I'm not playing everyone in some bizarre wierdness. Shovah32 wanted to play me MA Bandar versus whatever, and I'm perfectly willing to do that today. I'll play EvilHomer Patala versus T'ien Ch'i today if Shovah can't play today. Six hours from now would be fine.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Too Bad

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

I don't think there is much point in playing Patala vs T'ien Ch'i. As EvilHomer says, T'ien Ch'i probably is a stronger nation, although not particularly because of its PD. MA Ulm vs Bandar Log would be much more meaningful, because many of us feel that Bandar Log would have an advantage, whereas you are certain that Bandar Log can NEVER WIN.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

That reminds me that I won a blitz with Bandar Log against Ermor and Pangaea, who are both considered strong MA nations.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Oh! Wow Folket. Well in that case I guess the whole thread is disproved.

If you would submit your win to the Victorious Nations thread it would make me very happy.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Duels, blitzes etc are not reported usually to the victorious nation thread, would just flood it I fear http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Shall we start recording all duel and blitz wins there? That will give more number but I think it will only start to show what nations people like to play.

In general I do not find the monkey troops that weak. I have played Bandar Log and Patala in MP with fair success.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Might be a plan to have them in a seperate stickied thread. I do belive you have an ordinary game with LA marignon unreported anyway...

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

that is true. I should report that at a time.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Blitzes should definitely be recorded seperately perhaps in the same sticky, but one or two posts further down.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Speaking of thread hi-jacks, here's a mod I just made in response to this thread that has obvious implications for some kind of PD mod in the future.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...vc=#Post563021

It applies the '4 to a base' stuff I used for skavenslave and gnoblar chaff in the Skaven and Ogre Kingdoms mods to our own MA Bandar Log. It's in beta, but might be fun for you to try.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

If recording blitzes, it would be good to record which nations lost as well. Then the stats wouldn't be so biased by which nations people played more often.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Recording blitzes would be good, but should be recorded separately from normal games.

Re: Desperate thread hi-jack
 

Yep, I meant that sorry.

Re: Duel
 

Ok my duel with Bob is ready.
MA Ulm vrs Bandar Log. Random map with 40 provinces and no water.
The server is up and Bob should be joining soon. I will save the turns and hope I do the monkey nation proud.

I also hope I'm not facing the pretender that I expect.

Re: Duel
 

Eh I think Lord_Bob was more exaggerating in his post than actual stating as fact.

Re: Duel
 

Shovah32 won the game do to my stupidity on Turn 9.

I got greedy and tried to build a second castle to early, and then had to defend it. So my army of Flails died before I researched Strength of Giants, which would have been very helpful. I also think I misplaced my flails against the elephants. He then destroyed the castle construction(1 turn before completion) and that was it. If it had been up I would have ignored his army till getting Strength of Giants, but I didn't. So that's it.

Re: Duel
 

I'm not sure if buffing your flails would have given you as much help as you expect but I certainly think that you would have atleast survived alot longer if I hadn't hit you out of the blue like that so early on.

Thank you for the game - I hope we get this rematch quickly.

Re: Duel
 

Next battle, Shovah32 got some really bad luck, but decided to keep playing. So nothing except the battles mean very much.

As for the battles:
68 Flail troops operating in negative dominion without my Prophet for Sermon of Courage(again, bad luck on his part made me sloppy) fought 22 Tigers with strong bless and something like 8 white monkeys. Had light support from mages. Mostly mages cast Strength of Giants. Thier magma bolts killed like two monkeys. Flail troops killed all white monkeys and about 5 Tigers, with 2 tigers dying to Magma bolts. Flails worked well. But my army routed(would have won had they not). I'd like to repeat that. 68 Flail troops and some smiths almost killed 22 White Tigers, 8 White Monkeys, and his prophet. In their dominion.

Next battle, he rushed forward and hit me 15 white tigers. I built the suicidal arbalests using PD. About 35 PD. This worked because they work against things like white tigers. I had my one surviving smith cast Magma bolts and not buff my Flails at all. Flails didn't kill a single tiger. Total tankage. Arbalests kill 10 white tigers and 15 flail troops.

Third battle, Shovah32 gets into the spirit of silliness and buys a large amount of PD. Sadly, this is effective because my now large force of smiths is packing Magma Bolts for Tiger. Instead it gets Markata. So I rain flaming Magma death on Markata. Each casting can kill up to three Markata.
While I have about 100 flail troops and 40 flagellants, I am facing the remaining 5 tigers and something like 14 elephants. Because the Markata screw up my targetting, and the Bandar Warriors do real damage, I lose decisively. However, I do kill like 9 elephants and I think two tigers. By shear luck my armoured smiths escape. Yes they are armoured and have Earth Power waking them up, but they still should have died. My prophet was also in this fight.

Anyway, from the battles, it is pretty clear that Flail troops buffed with Strenght of Giants and used intelligently can do a good job against Bandar.

Re: Duel
 

Please note that in the first 2 battles my forces were not scripted to fight Ulm(first battle because it was indy when I attacked it. second battle due to me being lazy).

And in the third battle, your magma bolts actually did target my elephants. Atleast the first volley did.

Re: Duel
 

So what your saying is you lost a battle due to the GROSSLY INSANELY USELESS monkey pd?

Hahahahahah.

Re: Duel
 

ah, you gotta love chaff

Re: Duel
 

Were the tigers blessed? Otherwise it's not to surprising they lost against 3x their number in heavy infantry.
I'd think with a f9w9 bless they'd rip though the infantry. If they can't they might need a cost reduction cause 100 gold is pretty steep.