Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

That means you need to attack indies instead of sauromatian in the early game.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

I'm confused. If you're comparing resource cost, shouldn't it be 3 chariots to 87 hydras? If you're comparing gold cost, shouldn't it be 7.5 dawn guards to 6 Oirpata?

-Max

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

its your likely production, Max.

You are going to be limited by *either* gold, or resources, or holy.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Sure, but why skew both comparisons in favor of Sauromatia by using it as the baseline?

-Max

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Sauromatia build is extremely tight on points among other things and is very unlikely to have anything other than Sloth scales.

In addition, read my guide for poison bow archer counters. The only way you're going to have significant trouble with them with Hinnom is if you're attacking them. And that's only in early game before you can leverage your poison-immune SCs. So early game defense is a strength of Sauromatia... it's just what happens when the irresistable force meets the immovable object.

At least there's one nation that Hinnom simply can't rush off the map initially... they have to actually wait till turn 15.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

How do you think I'm skewing the comparison? Average out 10 turns of production, if you wish. Show me a hinnom build I'll show you a sauromatia build that takes it.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

How about you show a sauromatia build, and he shows you a hinnom build that takes it?

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

I think we could do this all day long.

ROCK!

PAPER!

SCISSORS!


Curses! You have outplayed me again!

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

On the subject of Hinnom eating everything...I am finding this to be painfully true. I started an 8 player game against CPU, and Hinnom started on the other side of the map from me (EA Agartha). After I destroyed Mictlan other nations started agressing me, namely Ulm, Atlantis, and Caelum. I was establishing a defensive front against these three when I decided to check the score graph. Imagine my displeasure when I found that I was in second place on all graphs....Hinnom was in first. This would normally be no problem...except that on all graphs they were 4x higher on the charts. So, the other CPU players were just going belly-up under Hinnom's power. Suddenly (like, within the course of 1 turn) Caelum and Atlantis disappeared, and in their place the legions of Hinnom stood. I got powered back to almost my capitol. Unfortunately, I had gone Ageless Olm E6W6 and could think of no solid way to stop the tide of destruction. In a tremendous effort I did a TON of alchemy and empowerment to get a D9 Oracle of Death. Using the Oracle I cast Utterdark and cut Hinnom's armies in half....my pale ones gained the upper hand in combat against Hinnom's national units. Not deterred, I saw an immediate spike in Hinnom's use of blood mages and demon summonings.

I am slowly turning the tide in my favor, using alchemy to generate income (see, it's not a useless mechanic to convert fire gems to gold!). I've cast frozen seas to cut off Hinnom's ocean assaults and establish choke points. I've empowered tons of oracles and olms to cast upwards of four Ghost Riders and 5 Earth Attacks per turn to break Hinnom's undead/demon sieges on my choke points.

My major obstacle now is a demon army led by a huge nephilim prophet that keeps casting spells to make his entire army ethereal, while I churn out as many barathrusian elementals and Umbrals as I can per turn.

Early summer, year 28, and I can't get Hinnom to break....

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

I'm really impressed that Hinnom's AI switched to blood mages under Utterdark. Nice job, JK!

Sounds like a fun game.

-Max

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Yeah, wasn't expecting demons with power++ in darkness to appear.

Fun game? Yes. Devoting wayyyy too much time to trying to end it? Definitely.

Can't wait to try a new nation/map!

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Hey if it's taking you that long to kill him, consider powering up a Blood economy of your own on the side - very cost effective once it's started. Then you can get your own Fiends of Darkness and whatnots, really fun stuff. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Though Earth Elementals and Umbrals are pretty nice already. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif Did you try Magma Babies on him at all? Many demons are actually fire vulnerable, and those Babies have insane damage output.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Wow,yeah. I had stopped doing magma babies before the utterdark because Hinnom was employing a lot of fire and tramplers...but now that it's mostly dead and demons I should whip out a few more fire factory earth readers. Only downside I can see is that the Hinnom pretender is a phoenix http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Agreed. I've found the population eating feature crippling, even with plus 3 growth scale.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

I echo your sentiment.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

How?

You can sit the pop eater researchers and ritual casters in a small single province and let them eat it to 0, and for armies on the move it tends to be negligible since you move quickly through your own territory (especially considering that you can Teleport and are designed for SC tactics).

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

I think the pop eating is more of just a pain to manage, than a real crippling problem. You have to continually manage where your big guys go, and make sure they don't stay in one place too long, unless you intend to deplete it.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

As I mention above, the real impact of the population eating which you can't manage away is that your blood hunters trash your blood hunting provinces much faster than other nations. This is more than compensated by Hinnom's other advantages, but it's not totally negligible.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

"crippling" might be a bit strong, but it is a very serious drawback for Hinnom. Sure, in happy-happy theory world, aka sp, you can move the rephaim to isolated desolate spots. In a real game though, things aren't so easy, if there is any sort of struggle. You need your armies where you need your armies. I had a significant force bottled up due to a siege. Population there used to be alright...

now, if only I had read the post about moving them somewhere else before they were besieged, I'm sure everything would have been a-ok.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

how bout making them starve if they are at a 0 pop place?

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

alternatively to all th bad press, the pop eating thing can be used to your advantage, sieging an enemy fort even if you don't take it you will cripple the economy of the fort so it can't output a good number and quality of troops.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

They eat human not for living, just for enjoyment.

Just compare to the demon units which have tags "need not eat" and meanwhile "gluttony" (e.g. dai oni). They do consume supply which bring other units problems, but if there is no supply for them to waste at all, they will not starve neither.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

But it´s an alternative. That way they wouldn´t be truly "not eating". They would not starve while there was population, or supplies, but they would still need to eat.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Nephilim do not require food due to their supernatural angelic heritage, but eat for fun. You miss the point, they can live indefinitely without food, they do it for thematic cruelty.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

I didn't have time to run a test but I'm wondering... do the popeaters increase unrest where they are? It would feel weird if people searching some random virgin to sacrifice drive the people mad, but giants eating indiscriminately all the people just for fun don't.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Hinnom have the pop eating ritualized and under control with a blood cult, with people delivered to the Rephaim as they are God Kings with divine status. Sorta like offering food to the gods.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Well, the solution ofcourse is that, when they run out of Pop. to consume, they don't starve, they just start eating each other.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Yes, I lost a size six chariot due to snacking... As an experiment I gift of reasoned one of their archers, Heh. I then kitted him out. Quite amusing. Is using a bow while you have a shield a bug? next I just gor a chariot, much less for gems spent.:D

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Baah, if so, Mictan would have "ritualized" the blood slaves centuries ago :D

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Actually Mictlan has "ritualized" blood slaves centuries ago, but only at their central temple. You know, the site that produces 3 blood slaves per turn. ;) :p

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Hinnom has the similar stuff at the city of Incest, Gomorrah.

2 Sites, Sodom and Gomorrah would fit their devilish, blood glut status...

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Just an update to this thread, since many people still think Hinnom is over-powered. The cost of key troops has been increased in an official patch, as well as reducing the starting army and, indeed, now the pop-eating cause quite a bit of unrest!

This is discussed, IIRC, in another, newer short guide to Hinnom, which has yet to be linked to the strategy index.

Edit: The new Hinnom guide is here: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=43369

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Hinnom is still overpowered and that's a fact.

They still have Melqarts that can take out any indie province most of the times even without a bless, which isn't hard to make with the heat free points.
They still have 7 magic schools, everything except water.
The pop eating problem can easily be solved with moving the pop eater to a low level pop province instead of keeping them in the main fort. No pop no unrest.

Troops are still great for the price you pay, Dawn Guards, good stats and magic weapon.
Still have the super deadly chariots that are better than any other tramplers IMO.

Money isn't hard to come by with the great scales you can take even with a good bless.
Expanding is still extra fast with fielding an expanding party every turn.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

What I wouldn't give to have some peasant-eaters! Send them to the gold mines, and when all the serfs are toast (or porridge), crank the taxes up to 200.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Yeah, I have to agree with Executor, a little bit of the heat came off of them with the patch but they're still incredibly powerful. Very strong units, fast and cost effective expansion units, strong and very diverse mages, very strong recruitable SCs, very strong research, strong blood economy, very strong national blood summons, no need to take anything other than very good dominion....basically almost everything I lay out in this guide is still valid.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

And I disagree that Hinnom does not need the bless (30% more Dawn guards just won't make the difference compared to E9N4+) but it was debated to exhaustion in the other thread.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

It's a matter a personal flavor I guess, myself, I'd just take a minor bless E4N4 or something like that and extra scales with mid-high dom, about 8.
But there is more than one way to play any nation so I don't see the point in arguing what the best way is.

I've made some very unortodox builds that proved to be much more efficient than the more logical ones.
Personal favorites were Sauro with S3 T3 G0 L3 M1 C1, more or less, and
C'tis with S3 T3 D2 L3 M3 H3, more or less.
Yeah, everyone was saying wtf? until the point they started losing.

Hinnom is still overpowered compared to other nations, that's just how I feel about it. And I don't really like them for one, had a game with them, had a stellar start, got bored with it, got a sub, won't play them again for sure.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Or just pillage.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

You're better off taxing at 200 and patrolling, than pillaging, since it takes a while to kill everyone. Pillaging (temporarily) destroys your income from that province because it causes more unrest than death, I think.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Yeah. I decided to give them a try again. (Note: CBM 1.5) Large map full of Normal AI's. I basically conquered the map with nothing but chariots. Not only that but I never built *ANY* building--this made it hard for a while, there was actually a time where I didn't have dominion on my own capital. I also never picked a fight.

At the time I declared it a win I had 2/3 of the map (and most of what I didn't have was water), climbing dominion, the largest army (as I said, pure chariots), IIRC 4 juggernauts/turn of recruiting and all 5 globals. All border provinces were PD 125.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

I do not really get this one. IMHO this is one of their weak points, but I guess you are thinking of bee-lining const 4 then 6 for skulls and lanterns? That would take quite a while unless you use a sagy pretender (but that is probably a good idea if you want any research done with these guys).

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

No,

Hinnom doesn't have to build a lab to build a mage. So you stick a fort in a hill or forest. Costs you 800.

You then turn around and move him to a location with no population with a fort/lab so he can research.

It isn't the lack of the cost, although that helps - but the faster scale up is invaluable. In the right terrains you just drop a fort, next turn you have mage support.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

I know this is the case, but that requires the right terrain, as you mention, and they still have an awful research-to-gold ratio. And even with good scales, I would think that money would be an issue, if you want to max recruitment of expensive chariots while building forts and recruiting mages. Unless, of coures, you have a vast area of independent farmland to expand into, but that just happens so rarely to me :).

I agree that they are very powerful, and perhaps one of the more straight-forward nations (in some areas), but I do not think they are "over-powered" to the extend that they should be banned. Also, being able to steamroll a bunch of normal AIs is not really the test for over-powerment imo. I would rather hear how people have fared in MP.

I have not had a chance to play them pre-nerf, but I can see how that was way too powerful...

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Well JR

I took a look at them again - because of our upcoming game.

Try this - make a two player game, map albatha. Try stopping Hinnom as EA Arco. or EA Tir. With fixed starting positions, after turn 3 or so - Hinnom is only prevented by taking (turn number) territories per game turn by geography.

While the death dominion of LA ermor may make you choose to attack elsewhere just because you get so little income from it - and the water terrain of LA-Atlantis may stop you - neither of these nations would be in a position of stopping you from conquering anyone else.

The game becomes - who can *not* lose to hinnom.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

OK, I just chose Hinnom, because I had a little experience with them and like their flavor. I will switch to another nation for our MP game :)

Lets continue this discussion in the MP game forum.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Hmmmm, at the risk of sounding pedantic, did you read the guide that starts this thread? Gold is not an issue if you manage this right, nor is terrain in the vast majority of cases because you can expand insanely fast with modestly priced expansion forces. That means your income climbs much faster than your expenses and you can capture whatever territory you want. FWIW, my experience is not against the AI, and my assertion that you have very strong research is empirically proven.

Ammi are 125 gold for 5 rp (in magic 1) is far from awful, that's actually very good. Even if you manage to scrounge up a better research mage the cost of a lab + temple = another castle, so Hinnom is instantly cranking out twice as many mages as anybody using holy mages. About 60% more than anybody with non-holy mages. In the MP game I based this guide on I just checked where I was at on turn 24 - tied for the research lead with a few SCs fully kitted, 22 blood hunters pulling in about 150 slaves per turn, and cranking out bloodstones. That's quite a lot of forgings (sanguine rods, SC gear, bloodstones) along with a large chunk of bloodhunters for this stage of the game, yet I'm still one of the research leaders. Granted, this is just one game, but I think it's a better illustration than rolling over the AI.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

That is is indeed a better illustration, but also, that game was pre-nerf iirc. If it is the consensus of the community that they are still too powerful for MP I just hope they get nerfed additionally either in an official patch or in the next CBM. To me, it is just a too fun nation to be completely left out...

Btw I am a great fan of your guides and writing in general - even if you have to risk sounding pedantic at times ;)

PS In my limited knowledge, Hinnom is not the only nation that can pull the no-lab mage building of. One of the Marignon's can as well, right?

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

There are a few - MA Jotun for instance.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Yeah, LA Marginon, chartmaker, however those mages are just used to be bought to make a lab since they don't require one for themselves and they are very bad. The real power is in Goetic Masters.

Sauro can do that also with Soothsayers and it's far better for them since they don't need a lab for mages you're gonna build like Marginon.

Re: HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING
 

Ah yes, I was trying to address the question of why I thought Hinnom had strong research which I don't think the nerf impacted other than possibly indirectly due to potentially less gold being available for mages. At any rate, I think it's pretty clear that Hinnom should be one of the research leaders due to having reasonably efficient research mages while cranking out twice as many as most comparable sized nations. There are a few other nations that have mages recruitable without a lab, but as far as I can think of right now the only one which is comparable is MA T'ien Ch'i's Minister of Magic (which I highlight as a very strong research engine in my MA TC guide). Most of the other mages which can be recruited without a lab you don't really want to recruit even for research if a lab is available, there's just better options available.