Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

If they do, that's great. Like I said, I am utterly in the dark about what Hinnom does or does not do.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

I know they do Max - but hell it was like 7 games before I even saw it happen. Ergo, not a serious theme. Make them down right blood thirsty - creepy.

Would be cool if sometimes a giant that ate a giant could get a seond shape (the eaten giant).

Would be cool if sometimes.. if somone ate the prophet - he might become the prophet.

Perhaps they should all be damned...(cursed)

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Ghost Riders turn the province into an empty independent every time they win, as far as I've seen. PD and any temples are wiped out. Are your Ghost Riders actually winning the battle?

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Chrispedersen: How about a Hinnom-specific "frequent cannibal" heroic trait?

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Just wondering if anyone has used Hinnom as an AI opponent using the EA Improved Computer Opponents mod?

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Yep. They win the battle, but it apparently only turns into an empty indy province when there's no PD at all there (only units). I tried it four or five times and then gave up in disgust.

-Max

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

PD should not regenerate after losing to ghost Riders.

In SP, the AI spends so much time moving troops around internally he's likely to move troops in that turn to fight your scout, who may or may not get there first.

I've definitely seen it work in MP. My PD never regenerated

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Max, i'm not sure what you're saying, or doing, but if you GR a province, and kill the pd, even a scout can take it.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Even better is Eater of the Dead. I love following EoD around with a stealth army taking the empty provinces it leaves behind it.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

It sounds like I'd better try Ghost Riders again. Maybe it was a fluke, or the AI was moving units in that happened to look like PD. I'll report back to the bug thread if I can't get it to work at all.

Agreed that the GR Wraith Lord commander is quite nifty for wiping out PD, which makes GR potentially great for cutting off escape routes and destroying routed armies.

-Max

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

at almost 4000 views, this thread has moved to be among the most viewed dominions threads.

therefore I deem that this thread is now about trains.

http://www.trainweb.org/carl/halx2003/S_574Pushers.jpg

http://www.trainweb.org/carl/halx200...8CalTrains.jpg

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Multiple ghost riders castings, followed up by a scout invading or coming out of hiding and attacking, is a common and well-used tactic.

And I like trains too, Omni.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Hinnom likes the trains too. Expecially the filling.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Now that I've finally played a bit against Hinnom in MP (just a 1-on-1 in Silent Seas), I see what's broken about the poll. I don't think any of the new races need to be banned, but I can't vote for that.

Admittedly I'm playing with CB on, so my units (Marverni, mostly berserkers) are cheaper. And I got lucky with some early risks I took. But it's a pretty good fight, and does not feel unfair. I may even have the upper hand at the moment.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

no more Hinom chariots is what I say...I mean, how do you stop those guys? They are too well armored for archers. Spells work fine but only if you can get your mages to target them. If the Hinom player holds his Chariots in reserve then you basically have to rely on your troops to take them out, which would be fine if said troops weren't already occupied with recruit-anywhere Dawn Guards!

Sorry, just my rant, you can guess what happened to me in a recent mp game.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Hinnom was invading me with a 30/30 army of chariots and warriors iirc, and I guessed where he'd strike. I bought 30 PD and marched in about 250 Marverni warriors, mostly bare-chested carnutes. The PD javelins did some damage, then the PD all got trampled. The carnutes moved in and cleaned up. Hinnom lost the entire force and I lost around 60 warriors I think.

That was before I'd researched Gifts from Heaven ... a small communion with three masters casting eagle eyes/summon earthpower/PoTS works really well.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

250 warriors and 30 PD seems somehow a bit extreme vs 30 chariots and 30 warriors, even if you do get the 30 PD back. How do the two forces (roughly) match up, in terms of gold/resources spent?

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

It's 30 PD on the front lines. Never hurts.

The cost to compare is 60 canutes versus 30 chariots/30 warriors, because the rest of the Marverni troops are still alive:

Marverni:
60 @ 13 gold = 780 gold (if you want to include 30PD @ 465 gold: 1245 gold)

Hinnom:
30 @ 75 gold + 30 @ 30 gold = 3150 gold

Resources for Marverni are negligible considering I'm building 6-resource units with prod-2 scales, out of several cheap forts. Like I said before, I'm not sure it it was exactly 30, it may have been as low as 20 chariots/40 warriors for 2700 gold. But Marverni still comes out on top.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

I've been playing Hinnom and I think I have a solution. If you have a pd that is 20 or above you get a Kohen. He should eat pop as pd. Thats right. Have the pd eat pop. This should go a long way to reduce their might. Just a sugestion. Thanks for your time.:D

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Good enough for government work, vfb, but still, from what I gather, PD is Hinnom's biggest problem.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Comparing only the cost of the lost troops isn't really meaningful, because it doesn't scale.
Overwhelming force often results in a victory with few losses. If Mictlan takes 50 barbarians with 20 jaguar warriors, only losing 2, that doesn't mean that 2 jaguar warriors = 50 barbarians.

You had critical mass against him and won with few losses, but a small change in either side could lead to a completely different outcome.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Thanks! I didn't look at it that way. I see what you mean.

The new math is:

Marverni:
250 @ 13 gold = 3750 gold (if you want to include 30PD @ 465 gold: 4215 gold)

Hinnom:
30 @ 75 gold + 30 @ 30 gold = 3150 gold

But Marverni still crushed Hinnom later with Gifts from Heaven and teleporting Druids spawning Earth Elementals. :)

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Marverni alive so long? It must be some really bad play from its neighbours. And where are Hinnom mages? His research must be far superior to Marvernis at that point. Surprise kill of one obsolete army with mages means nothing.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

It doesn't take all that long to get to Thau 1/Alt 1/Evo 5. Especially if you start next to some farmland and build a lot of druids and have decent scales. I used:

Wyrm (Body 269, 160 hits)
No magic
Dominion 10
Scales: Order 3 Productivity 2 Cold 3 Growth 1 Misfortune 2 Magic 1
Awake

The Wrym allows rapid expansion from turn 1, and also will block chariots while you're waiting for Conj 5 for elementals.

Sure, Marverni needs to build a fort+lab+temple to recruit more druids, but all forts are 800, 3 turns and temples are only 200.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

I need to do some more research but from what I can tell so far, I'd say that relative to other nations in their era, Ashdod completely dominates MA nations and is more unbalanced relative to the landscape than Hinnom.

Ashdod's Anakites are berserking, sacred, FR75, with 50HP, high MR (15) high protection (14), decent combat stats for giants (att 12/ Def 15) and not outrageously expensive at 125 gold (Vans cost 90 gold by comparison), especially given the nation has Heat +2 preference meaning most build will be Heat +3 for an extra 120 points. Since they have innate berserking, no need to go N9 but you can settle for a cheaper N bless for solid regeneration. With the typical E9 bless these guys are monstrous to stop.

They will tear through almost anything the MA nations can throw at them. Hydras will drop like flies. Woodsmen have lower MR, lower combat stats, not naturally berserking, lower protection, etc.

Ashdod: Strong PD - national summons...

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

How are you using Ashod. Ashod works well with a E10N6 bless, but the central focus is really the Adon's and there SC abilities (with access to strong unique summons, death summons, and wish) and not the Anakites. But I do agree that Ashod is a nation that should be looked at now that Hinnom has been nerfed.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

I am not playing them (actually I am fighting them), or trying to discuss strategy, just making the point that I think Ashdod is far out of balance with other MA nations.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Sorry about that :doh:. I agree that Ashod should be balanced, luckily that will be next on the agenda now that Hinnom has been nerfed.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Agree on that E10N6 for Ashdod. (E10 is rarely useful but in Ashdod's case it's the difference between Enc 1 and Enc 0 for most of their troops.) That bless is perfect for Adonim and Ahimans early on (and She****es, which I haven't played much with), goes well with Zamzummim thugs in the midgame, and is really nice gravy on Malik + Ditanu as well as Chayot + Ophanim later on (esp. for rejuv, e.g. it makes the regular old non-commander Ophanim accumulate no fatigue even if they trample 4 squares per turn, except in cold/swamps). Ashdod is still not as strong as Niefel early on, and recruitable Niefel Jarls are better SCs than recruitable Adonim... but Ashdod is terribly well-rounded.

A gcost increase for Zamzummim would not be out of line, to make them have awful research (like Helheim) to compensate for awesome units. PD is not as strong as Hinnom but is pretty decent, and nerfing PD would not mess up the nation thematically. (E.g. you could have human slaves + Edomites for PD instead of Edomites + Gileadites.)

-Max

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Max, Just to be clear, I am not trying to compare Ashdod to Niefelheim or debate strategy. I am trying to address the thread topic/survey on how these nations impact MP games.

I think the difference in power between Ashdod and other nations in MA is fairly extreme. Not necessarily saying they should be banned, or even nerfed, but it seems most of the focus has been on Hinnom. I think that Ashdod is actually currently more unbalanced relative to its peers.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Shouldnt they be a powerful scary nation. I mean after-all they are cannibalistic giants who fallen angels taught how to fight. You should also add the option to keep them in mp.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Ashdod is not cannibalistic, in case you were talking about them and not Hinnom. I thought I was agreeing with you, DonCorazon--saying that a nation is "less powerful than Niefelheim early on" is sort of like saying that a guy is "a little weaker than Mr. T." Not exactly a charge of weakness, y'know? The point is that Ashdod just gets better with time.

Ashdod is by far the strongest nation I've seen, all things considered. Or maybe they just suit my playstyle the best, I dunno. (Marverni and LA Agartha are also great.)

-Max

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

I'm playing against a double bless Ashdod in a MA game currently. I'm playing a double bless Mictlan. Knowing how cheap my sacreds are, I would say that, dollar for dollar, the Ashdod sacreds win almost 3 dollars to my 1 in a straight up fight. This includes the use of jade amazon riders. I'm serious, nearly hundreds to his dozens. I'm actually glad I didn't take a full fire bless as that might work more in Ashdod's favor, considering their natural fire resistance. Luckily for me, I would never fight a straight up fight against them.

Their access to death magic has been painfully synergistic. Their skelly spam is better then any other nations due to their unique undead. I think their access to forgers and earth magic also synergies too well with their access to national thugs.

As for player skill, the original player knew what he was doing. It is now controlled by a new player. That said, he has still managed to fend off three nations and eat another one alive. It is a bit ridiculous, but I suspect the gap in player skill might allow the others and I victory. Against an experienced player, I would say we have no chance to survive.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Calahan was really a great player, and a great guy. Hope he's doing as well with whatever RL threw at him, as he was doing here with Ashdod.

PS - I think they're a bit over the top myself. I guess I should run a good test game so I can comment in actual detail.....

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

15% Forge Bonus on Talmai Elders + Dwarven Hammers + 3 misc slot sacred giants w/ magic = really nice thugs.

-Max

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

This works to a lesser extent with Gath too. A Forge Lord with an E9F4 gives a nice enough bless to the super-cheap recruit-anywhere zealots, and pretty good scales.

He makes extremely cheap hammers for himself and the rest of the Gath mages to build items for the 3-misc-slot Gadols, and inexpensive Serens. Get a nice heroic ability, and you're in SC land.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Thinking about this more... is Ashdod spam actually better? Typically it seems that you get either 5 regular skellies or 1 giant skelly (or maybe 1 giant and 1 normal). I don't think 10 giant skellies are actually better than 50 regular skellies except maybe against heavily-armored troops. (Troop density is worse and you have less overall attacking power.)

-Max

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

From everything that I've seen, there is no reduction in quantity. Nation specific undead are simply added to the "spawn list". This is most clear with Lanka priests Reanimating, as they can get large numbers of Soulless Bandar, which are quite nice.

(EDIT - Just rewatched a current Ashdod fight, with a single skelly spammer. First cast, 5 Longdead. Second cast, 4 Longdead + 1 Longdead Rephaite.)

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Same here Jim. I've never seen less undead reanimate either in battle or overland, just because some of the undead is special (giant or otherwise).

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

Considering this thread, and that their already are units marked as 'Demon' and 'Undead', I wonder if the Devs have considered making an 'Angel' tag? That would allow special forged items, and special abilities/spells to affect angelic units, such as Hinnom gets, reducing-atleast somewhat-their late game power, without having to remove their (frankly, very cool) summons.

This could even be extended to the Nephils and other half-angels, as well as the much overused Seraphs, ashen angels, etc.

Re: No more MP for Hinnom?
 

You're probably right, then, Jim.

-Max