Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Aezeal, by flat tax NTJedi doesn't seem to mean flat tax, he seems to mean a progressive graduated income tax with no deductions. This confused me for awhile.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

ow.. well I can't be bothered to read all of this thread. His flat tax would probably be better for what I'm thinking then... goo socialism.

THen I don't think I can place most of his arguments very well though.

Goo socialism... gooo communism... :D

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

The irony here, is that while (in context) I found your other post a little insulting, and thus responded with a tinge of anger, I like this post.

Obviously, there will be many different experiences among many different people. However, anecdotal observations are invaluable in assessing the reality of situations (as long as those observers are honest), in ways that a more removed "authority" may not be able to see. That is, unless more people gathering information on such things want to take the time and effort to make up a fake story, and call around various organizations, fishing for data.

In my situation, it was simple enough though. My own "statistics" were skewed from the beginning. Probably a good 50% of the "charitable organizations" on this list provided by my hospital, stated quite clearly next to the phone number that they provided assistance to church members only. There are only 2 ways you can take that (and one is awfully optimistic), but I don't belong to ANY church, so it didn't matter. Anyway, the rest all have their own little agendas as well. Some would only help me if I had children, some would only help if I was a drug addict, and yes I applied for Oregon Health Plan again, and my rejection letter actually told me that they were only accepting unmarried males without dependents in my age bracket - if they were illegal aliens.....

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Conclusion?

Republicans:
Wisdom: <9
Intelligence: 9+
Alignment: Lawful Evil

Democrats:
Wisdom: 9+
Intelligence: <9
Alignment: Chaotic Good

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

No, neither side is good, and neither side has high wisdom nor intelligence, though they have remarkable constitutions and charismas...

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Bachellor of Science, Chemical Engineering, Computer engineering, Minor Psychology Ga Institute of technology. I suspect my 'scientific background' is adequate for this discussion.

My memory was close but perfect on the filing date - the date was Aug 21 not Aug 28.

But the essential *facts* of the matter are real simple. Berg asked for Obama / DNC / FEC to prove US citizenship. Rather than provide evidence of the same - the defense requested dismissal for lack of standing.

In other words, the judge said - you don't have a right to compel obama to prove he is a citizen.

I think Berg's origianl question is actually pretty reasonable, and find the whole defense, and ruling pretty unreasonable. And I would think that if the same were done to any candidate.

ymmv.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Not bad. I like that. Makes sense to me (altho those who dont understand DnD might take offense at the LE part but it makes perfect sense to me)

Mine has been this...
Under the Democrats we will become the Federation.
Under the Republicans we will become the Ferrengi.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

His words, like I quoted, were rather "It doesn't matter". You can read the exact document at the link that I gave. Since Berg isn't satisfied with that, he appealed the same complaint to the US Supreme Court again. I wish him the best of luck.

In that second link, you'll also find a link to Obama's Hawaiian birth certificate, which is enough to prove his US citizenship to a layman like me, unless somebody can make a compelling case before court that it isn't. The second paragraph in the page that I linked to even has this: so I'd say that justice was served: Surprise, surprise, they didn't stop McCain's presidential campaign dead in its tracks because of this, either.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

hi Chris could you please provide me with some link to John McCain's birth certificate? I can't seem to find any evidence he is a natural born citizen :D

k thx bye in advance

the conclusion does not seem to follow :)

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I can respect some republican points of view but chris is a bit strange, next he's gonna mention barack is a muslim again. PS that much bachelors to me only means you should've just gotten a master and that you've wasted government cash and/or your time but doing it all. I also wonder if yous still use all that in your current job.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

The only evidence backing this whole argument is an elementary school equivalent registration form his stepfather filled out. Because of that, which has no legal significance other than registering him for school, we must conclude that he legally changed his name and citizenship.

And as other's have said, his birth certificate is available. He can't produce the other documents requested since they don't exist. He never changed his citizenship or his name, so he can't produce documentation showing he changed back. Easier just to have the case dismissed.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Can we be provided with a direct link to Barack's birth certificate please, just because I can't find it.
As the above have said whats in a primary school registration form? Its not legaly binding and it was filled in by his step dad, who seems rather dubious... And so what is he's a muslim? I think that could be a step forward to peace in the middle east, it would certainly give the rabid preachers less to bang on about... "The US is the land of the infedel they invade our lands because of greed and hate... What do you mean muslim?... It means nothing that they just elected a muslim president" Thet'd soon get around it but it would be one less strike agaisnt the US in the middleeast, which can only be good, even if its to late.

Oh and NT, on the question of healthcare someone has said something a couple of pages ago and I've repeated others enough today. On the tax system... how is your tax going to annoy the rich if its going to reduce their tax from 50% to 8%, (figures from the forumn so I'm not to sure about the 50% one, the other I have quoted before) You can say 'but they pay 0% now' all you want but more likely than not they'll pay 0% wether the single working mother of four gets a tax break or not, so lets save the mother shall we? Argue with the rich you say? Isn't Obama letting a tax cut for the rich expire not a step in the right direction? Only people can't vote for you :D

BTW those of you who voted/are voting, I hope it was a pleasant and festive experience. It should be.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

... All of that is ending soon anyway :D

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Here you go, plus the marriage certificate:

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Wow konmig, that was a nou-kyuu-lar bomb!! :D

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Good point, we've got chris arguing we can't tax the rich more because "Top 5% of earners pay 50% of the taxes in the U.S.", which is close enough to true. He neglects to mention they also bring in roughly 50% of the income. And probably a far larger percentage of actual assets.
On the other hand NTJedi claims there's no point in raising taxes on the rich since they just find loopholes and never pay taxes anyway.
I'm not quite sure how to reconcile those arguments. The facts of the first one seem to check out, and don't seem that unfair with a little bit of context. In fact, it suggests that the top 5% are barely paying their fair share ("Fair" is a fuzzy word in this context. In one sense it would be "fair" for the top 5% to pay 5% of the taxes.)
The US seemed to do quite well in 50s & 60s with top marginal tax rates up in the 90% range. What has accompanied the lowering of those rates since then is a massive transfer of wealth upwards. The top few percent control a much larger percentage of the countries wealth than at any time since the Roaring Twenties. I would like to see that reversed.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

You seriously think that in todays global economy taxing people at 90% is a good idea?

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I think jeff means the top 10% of the population paying 90% of the total taxes which is possible as the top 10% owns a good amount of the wealth, something like 40-60% in 2001 I can remember doing some economics work on it... anyway to tiredfor arguing

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Presidential? After some vacillating, I settled on my pick while in the voting booth. McCain has annoyed me enough recently with his breathless hyperventilating that I had considered voting for a third party candidate, and I could live with Obama (there are some upsides), but I finally decided to vote against socialism and for nuclear power. So, McCain/Palin.

-Max

P.S. So, has anyone written up stats for a Barack Obama pretender yet? I'm thinking archmage stats, built-in A1 + pathcost 30, add Awe +3. 50 points.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Only the first statement is true, according to the IRS. Top 5% on the 2006 doc pays 55% of the taxes, and has 31% of the adjusted gross income.

(It would be nonsensical otherwise, in a country which has progressive taxation. The top X percent will *never* pay the same proportion of taxes as their income.)

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxst...=96981,00.html

Note though that this is only federal income tax, not state/local/payroll taxes.

-Max

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

No, I actually mean a top marginal rate of 90%.
Starting with income somewhere north of 10 million, maybe. And marginal rate, so only income above the 10 million is taxed at the highest rate. Lower rates below that until you reach the current max 35%? somewhere around 1/4 million.

Also changing the capital gains rate to a progressive structure, with a large exemption so those living off of retirement savings aren't hurt. It makes no sense to tax those just sitting back watching their money grow less than those working for a living.

I'd really be happy with something in the 70% range.

Again, this didn't destroy our economy last time we tried it. In fact we had the healthiest middle class we've ever had in this country.

Note that this is still far from socialism, more like FDR through Eisenhower & up to JFK. And far more radical than anything that scary socialist Obama is going to try.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

And you still think the global market and investment conditions are the same as a century ago?

You are right though, it isn't socialism, it's insanity.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

My apologies then.

I'd poked around after Chris's post and found a source giving something around 48% income for the top 5%. That probably wasn't adjusted gross income, which may account for some of the disparity. A quick look didn't find the source again. Maybe later...

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I think it's completely idiotic to be discussing the birthcertificate... you shouldn't win on technicalities... but the world these days is like that and I accept that.. so does mcCain I'd say and his lawyers.. if there was more than just rumours there they'd have cracked down on it instead of just passing the rumours, it'd be blown out of proportion.

IT's just republican fanatic wishfull thinking and gossip.

I've been pretty used to seeing american make the wrong (my opinion yes) choice and I'd not be surprised if they'd do it again but pplz who keep bringing this up are just idiots

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

No, obviously the global conditions are not the same as 50 years ago.
So what?
What has changed that makes higher taxes on the top 1% or so, completely insane?
Why do those differences lead to that conclusion?

What horrible consequences do you see?

"Things are different now, that can't work" isn't an argument.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Point being those people will simply not have their money in the US for *any* of it to be taxed.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Licker,

Point well taken....

My GF is a Privite Banker and she has notices that the majority of the Largest depositers are either selling off or taking HUGE loans to themselves from the companies they control.

Money is being put on hold (and hid) it seems for another 24 hours. After that they have aprox 2 months to make that money dissaper.

Tax that gentlemen....:eek:

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Sorry about the spelling...(LOL) watching the Green Mile will reading this.:)

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Hauser's Law seems appropos. You *can't* soak the rich.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1211...n_commentaries

Or at least, not if you're trying to generate income. Thejeff's purpose seems to be more about building the middle-class. If raising the top marginal tax rates to 90% reduced IRS revenues from $1250 billion to (say) $700 billion but that $700 billion was being paid mostly by people making less than $100,000 per year--would that be a positive thing in your eyes? (Open question to anyone who cares to answer.)

Me, I'm kind of split. On the one hand, I'm pro-growth. On the other hand, the middle class will make a living one way or the other, and penalizing high earners out of existence to make way for middle-class jobs MIGHT be better than bribing the middle class with "bread and circuses." On the gripping hand I can't bring myself to favor punitive measures against people who work hard and succeed; it's un-American.

-Max

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

No, actually his birth certificate is *not* available. He refused to make it available. He had a copy of a birth certificate posted on his website for a few days; it was rumored to be that of his half sister.

Point is - no he never submitted a birth certificate to the courts. Takes all of ... 5 minutes right?

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

IS not the only thing backing him up - there were 2 other documents, and an interview with the principle of his school, plus a kenyan birth certificate.

I don't expect any candidate to produce name change things etc.
But I think every candidate should be able to prove they are a natural born U.S citizen.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Here are some other figures for you:

Barry has proposed 1 trillion in new spending.

This is roughly: 16% of the US economy - additional spending.
Our current budget is roughly .. 2 trillion dollars. He proposes to increase govt spending 1 trillion dollars?

How is transfering 1 trillion dollars each year from the private economy to nonproductive government use.. a good thing? I mean sure, if he's giving it to you.. you're all in favor of it... but if you are looking out for the goose as a whole (you know the goose that lays the golden eggs) how is it a good thing?

We borrow roughly..$450 billion a year.. and he wants 1 trillion in additional spending. And this is on top of a financial crises where we are going to have to spend BILLIONS more in bailouts.

and this is a good idea?

How is it a good idea to increase the % of people not paying taxes from 38% to 48%.

Also an interesting statistic.. how is it possible to give a tax break to 95% of taxpayers - when 38% don't pay taxes?

Its financial insanity. As de Toqueville said.. democracy works until people realize they can vote themselves a pay raise.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I think either someone is feeding you total bull**** interpretations of stated "plans", or you are reading something wrong.

Otherwise, he would be the first Democratic president in I don't know how long, to actually increase the deficit.

That's right, for all of the Republican blustering about Democrats spending on this or that, it is well documented that over the last century, every economic indicator is better under a Democrat, than under a Republican.

What do our presidents "increase", in the economy?

Democrats =
GDP
Taxes
Social Programs
Public Works (important, increases jobs while building infrastructure)

Republicans =
Inflation
Unemployment
Deficit
Spending (where? pork?)


For your dining pleasure - http://www.slate.com/id/2199810/

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

I may be misunderstanding the question here, but aren't you not a taxpayer if you don't pay taxes? That being the case, I don't see a conflict with these numbers are they are completely unrelated.

Also, please address konming's posted birth certificates and why we should give any credence to unsubstantiated rumors spread about a candidate in a presidential election?

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Obama won!!!!

As a resident of virginia, whoop!

Seriously though, that was a very, very nice speech by mccain.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

It was.

I could kind of sense McCain turning back into the guy he was before this race made him so unpleasant. The SNL QVC bit was a sweet bit of self-deprecating humor too.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Even though I voted for McCain, I can still respect the moment this is in History. I can still hope that Obama presides as the man he presented himself as rather than the man his past would indicate. The US has survived bad presidents, I hope Obama is not one of these, but even if he is we can survive, quite possibly even thrive.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Yeah, seriously, what was with McCain? Wanting to win like that. That Bastard!

What so much of the media, and many Obama supporters (not entirely sure why I establish a difference), wanted McCain to do was behave like Bob Dole and essentially concede gracefully. When it turned out he was in it to win (and appeared to have a shot before the Lehman Brother's collapse) that was just him negatively campaigning. Negative campaigning has become a way of life (chiefly because it works). Both sides used it extensively, one side got blamed. Since this campaign was about Senator Obama, McCain had to be a bit more direct, but that was all.

For the debate regarding fiscal policy and economics above, Slate isn't exactly something I would bring into a debate as a source... it's like me using the Bible to "prove" the Christian God exists. Not exactly unbiased.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Oh, and the last Democratic President to increase the deficit was Bill Clinton. The one before that was Jimmy Carter.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Woo Hoo! Obama is president.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Honestly, I didn't see very much of evil mccain that many seemed to. His running mate was far nastier than he was, and he continuously got in arguments with her and some of his campaign advisors about lines that he would draw on what was acceptable. He seemed fairly honorable through most of the campaign, even if elements of his campaign were less so.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Free at last, thank god almighty, free at last!!!!!

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

McCain was an honorable man. Perhaps he still is. But he fell into the trap of the Republican party. It was his downfall.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

TAX-Payer. TAX*payer* tax PAYER. I don't know how else to say it.. No, if you are not paying taxes you are not a TAX PAYER.

I did address konmings birth certificate, post. providing a document on the internet is *not* the same as providing it in court. Anyone can easily make a fake b.c. using photoshop. Providing one in court allows its authenticity to be verified.

I am not saying, (nor have I ever been) Obama isn't a US citizen.

I'm saying:

A). It was bad politics to squash the question on procedural issues. Provide a copy of the birth certificate - it ends the question definitively.

Whereas stonewalling on releasing birth certificate et.al feeds the frenzy.

B). Proving that you are eligible for the job should be part of the PAC formation. Right now according to the FEC, they are not responsible for verifying credentials. According to state of florida, Division of elections.. it is the responsibility of each of the counties subcommitties under the executive committe of the political party.

In other words, the democratic party is responsible for verifying that barack is eligible and the republican party for mccain.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

lwarmonger,

I readily concede that Obama used standard negative campaign tactics, such as interpreting McCain's policies in a bad light and then using that voice and that music in the ad with the grainy shot of the opponent. (Who is that woman that does "negative" voice in every dang ad? I think she showed up in ads for both Obama and McCain). McCain did the same.

But he and his camp also stooped to really scurrilous character attacks, "he's a marxist", "he's a radical", "he's not a 'real american'", "he has secret connections to terrorists," etc. That stuff was beyond the pale. It got him exactly what it should have gotten any candidate who stoops to it.

I felt badly for him. Much of the time he seemed so angry because he couldn't believe his handlers had him saying that junk. I interpreted part of his concession speech as repudiating that aspect of his own campaign...shushing the boos.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Yes, that was my point. So, either the 38% who don't pay taxes and the 95% who would theoretically get a tax break are completely unrelated ideas, or perhaps you are saying that because 38% of people are not paying taxes it is impossible to give a tax cut to said 95% of taxpayers. Or is it something else entirely? I honestly can't tell, sorry.

Thank you for clarifying the birth certificate thing, I am satisfied with this answer.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Yeah, bogus statistics in that slate article. Which just goes to prove you can prove anything you want to with statistics.

For example:

Why did the statistics start in 1957? Could it be to avoid including the huge deficits imposed by wwII? The great depression? If you're going exclude WWII years.. why shouldn't you exclude Korean, Vietnam, Kuwait War?

Secondly.. Democrats love to point to the years in the 50's and 60s, and the performance of the American economy.

OF COURSE the american economy did well. Europe, Japan, Russia and the rest of the 'first' world had been bombed to hell. We *had* no economic competitors.

No competition to our industry. No competition for resources. No competition for our investment into research.

But the telling fact is that a mere 25 years later, (1970) the Soviet Union never a world power, has become a military superpower, and the world (often) seems poised at the brink of nuclear destruction - and a group of Arab States are about to shake the world with the first Oil Embargo. Which, by the way, was a direct result of Kennedy's domestic oil policies - at least according to Onassis.

And quoting wiki...."After the 1954 Congressional elections, the Democratic Party now dominated both houses of Congress until 1994, except when Republicans held a majority of seats in the Senate, after the party dominated the 1980 US Presidential and US Senate elections".

So .. our competitors are in ruins; the democrats have more or less 40 years in power; and according to you they do an excellent job of managing the economy and world affairs.

Yet - if thats so how do our competitors, by 1980.. catch us? How does europe rebuild? How does Russia become a military power on par with us? You'd think that if the democrats did such a stellar job - there was no way anyone else could catch us.

Or is it in fact because perhaps in fact - that other nations - and not just one or two - but whole HOSTS of other nations.. exceeded us.

And if they exceeded us.. perhaps the democrats didn't do such a good job, did they.....

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

Well I doubt 95% of taxpayers make under 250k, or whatever the real number was.

Obama did associate with pseudo-marxist organizations, namely ACORN and to a lesser extent his church. He did remain in contact with Ayers until
2006, he does come from an intellectual tradition that tends to blame America first and always. I'm hoping the best for him, but I do think McCain's ads were true from a certain, exaggerated point of view. It really was on both sides. Obama alleged that McCain couldn't use a computer, it was steadily implied that he would probably die or go senile in office. I think that campaigns are dirty by their nature, and everyone condemns it, but it is not the property of one single party.

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

WTF is a marxist organization?


on another note check out this **** going down on conservative forums and LAUGH YOUR ASSES OFF AT THOSE DIP****S

http://www.republicanoperative.com/f...ially-won.html

Re: OT: US President (US Dom Players only)
 

[quote=JimMorrison;650408]What do our presidents "increase", in the economy?

Democrats =
GDP
Taxes
Social Programs
Public Works (important, increases jobs while building infrastructure)

Republicans =
Inflation
Unemployment
Deficit
Spending (where? pork?)/[quote]

Jim, I had to make one further observation. Our president's input on the economy is actually fairly small.

1. Congress passes spending bills, setting fiscal policy.
2. The federal reserve sets monetary policy.

Reference after refernce will document that the role of the president is overstated.