Re: War....
 

America: The Good Neighbor.


Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast
from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text
of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:


"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly
the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and
Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its
remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the
Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of
Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring,
59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the
Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those
countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of
those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own
airplane.

Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed
Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines
except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or
woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese echnocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the
moon -not once, but several times -and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the
Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers
are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are
breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the
Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke,
nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name you 5000 times when the
Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when
someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during
the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is
damned tired of hearing them get kicked around.

They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to
thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not
one of those."

Stand proud, America!

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danm man, who cares who has a right to what land? we stole this land from the natives, we took hawaii by military force, europe has changed borders more times than i can count, the holy land has been changing hands since before the crusades, who gives a ****?

Israel invaded, we put them there, and they are our puppet state, and our method of exerting influence in the region. its good for us, bad for the poor guys on the west bank, and its their tough ****. thats probably why they dont like us very much. Like the Native Americans believed, you cant own land or have any inherant rights to it. but we sure as heck controll it right now, and i dont see that changing very soon. I dont think anybody is going to find a crusty piece of papyrus in a jar under the dead sea, and realize that its an inditement from god to give back ownership of specific parts of the world to its rightfull owners.

I was having a conversation with god just the other day over a couple of beers, and he specifically told me that the hollywood hills were my rightfull land. the bad news was he didnt think i would be able to collect on it. The Jews and the Muslims are in a similar situation of not being able to collect, but they're worse off because god didnt personally draw it out for them with a magick marker on a realestate map like he did for me.

what a silly thing to argue about. maybe it belongs to the cromagnans that us homosapiens slaughtered on our way up the foodchain. maybe we should reanimate a friggin ice man by impregnating an ape with his DNA and grant it all to him.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rich04:
America: The Good Neighbor.
...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wow, that warms my black little heart. it really does. but to the defense of some of those countries on whom fault is placed:

we owed the French. we poo poo them alot, but we would have had our asses handed to us in 1812 if they did not bail us out. i dont like to admit that very often, but its true. and as for them ****ting on us in the streets of paris, 1 - American tourists are some of the lamest, most arrogant, ignorant ****s on the planet. and 2 - the French are rude to everyone, even each other. they cant help it.

and i believe that AIRBUS is suppose to put boing and lockheed to shame as far as airliners go. sure, our military planes are lightyears ahead, but I think that airbus wins on the commercial market.

I also have to give props to our friends in England, who did lend a big hand cleaning up some of our nastier oil spills in the past, and whom continue to support our childlike pestering of Iraq.

other than that, I have to humbly agree with the entire thing, and offer a heartfelt thanks to our northern neighbors (whom, I might add, kicked no small amount of *** in WWI, and are superb, constructive participants in any global crisis.)

Re: War....
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Wasn't it the US that created this monster Bin Laden in the first place?
Back when he was fighting the Soviet empire it was allright for him to murder, he got CIA training and support to do so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I beleive you are confusing Asami Bin Laden with the Afgan rebels. Bin Laden had nothing to do that I have ever heard with the Afgan strugle against the former Soviet occupation. He is a Saudi Arabian and a religous zealot who caused lots of trouble in his home country and only went to Afganistan after similarly like minded religous zealots took over that country. That's the only place he could find that he could operate without fear of being returned to Saudi Arabia or America and facing justice. He is a coward, and a power monger.

I am so sick and tired of being told the U.S. can't do this or that because of "terrible" things we did in the past.

Logic like that would have kept us out of WWI and WWII.

"So what if Japan bombed Pearl Harbor? They only attacked military targets that were a threat to their interests. And Hawaii was "conqured" by the US anyway."

"So what if Germany was conquering all of Europe, twice? How is that different than what we did to the Indians?"

TOUGH! This IS different.

The rules have changed, and NOT simply because this attack took place on U.S. soil. It was naive for any of us to think that terrorism would never strike our country, especially since we live in such a free and open soceity.

But this changes the rules by the sheer scale and audacity of the attack. And by the level of training and support that would have been needed to pull this off.

I keep hearing on the news that "This is the worst terrorist attack in American history." And it makes me want to scream. This is the worst terroist attack in the history of the world.

This is not only an attack on the United States. Even though the targets were in the U.S. This was the WORLD Trade Center. Many foreign nationals undoubtedly lost their lives on Tuesday.

Every country in the world today must be saying "There but for the grace of God go I."

This is not a war between America against Afganistan.

This is a war between every civilized nation in the world, and any organization that would perpatrate such actions. And against any country that would aid and shelter any such organization.

If the Taliban government wants to avoid the bombs, they can turn over those responsible at once. I am sure things would go much better for them if they do. But they won't. Because even if they didn't "know" the extreme nature of this attack, they knew the Bin Laden was planning, and had taken actions against us in the past, and they didn't stop him or turn him over then. They are not innocent. They are not even appologetic.

They issued threats on Wedsnday that any attacks against them could cause anger and result in further suicide attaks. That sounds sorry to you? Check it out.

The rules have changed. We didn't change them. But we are going to find those responsible, and make them pay. And the rest of the world will owe us another debt of gratitude for doing it when it's all over. And you know what? I really don't care who likes it or doesn't like it.

Geoschmo

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Gordon Sinclair died in 1984.

The speach was penned in 1973 and was in context with Trudeau's ideoligy to push Canada's culture away from American's culture.

It was a strong speach then and still remains a strong speach.

If you wish to read about Mr. Sinclair or hear this speach in his own words go to
http://www.rcc.ryerson.ca/schools/rt.../sincla_g.html



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http://www.rcc.ryerson.ca/schools/rt.../american.html

Is the link on the history of that speach

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Man some of these Posts have really irked me and now I am going to RANT A bit....

NO country deserves what happened tuesday -just because of foreign policies! Especially to have weapons of mass destruction used on them. The explosive power of that 767 jet was pretty close to 1 kiloton when loaded with fuel and ramming a buildng at around 400 knots. With the weight and speed of that plane it was approx 123 g's of force hitting that building.

Europeans certainly shouldnt be calling the kettle black- look at your own history - Europe has a bloody and dark history abroad for several centuries and it continues today. I am sick of the America is the big bad guy rhetoric. Bombing the US just because its government wont let the Israels be destroyed and we support our allies upon request makes the US evil ?! - what a load of crap. You dont see the USA occupying or invading countries at random. We defend our allies (kuwait) and strike back at those who blow up our people and embassies (african embassies).


I would agree with anyone who said that what the Israel's tactics against the palistinians is totally wrong and an obvious failure. Its easy to be the oppressor when you have the power, But Its doesnt justify killing women children and men who are completely innocent. The US gov policies are no worse than any other western govenment.

Maybe some people dont get it - this attack isnt an just an attack on the US, its an attack on humanity, and the world. Osma Bin ladin's cronies tried to ram the Eiffle tower 2 -3 years ago and the French foiled the plot and stopped the 747 from leaving the airport. SO This was not his first try.
Just remember - now that its been done- Someone else will try again - and your country maybe next.

As for YANK bashing by the British, I am british living in the US for 34 years. You must realise Church Hill practically beg the US to get into WWII because the british were hanging on by their finger nails and didnt have the Industrial might to fight alone. the US government let Pearl Harbor happen because the citizens of the US didnt want anything to do with a european war and they had to be made angry to get involved.
Everyone in this country knows that America didnt win the war on its own, Russia and other western powers were essential to victory.
I also want you to remember The USA rebuilt Europe after it was reduced to rubble and the US and never got repaid. That was american citizens tax dollars given freely and without strings.

For those who think I am a raging american citizen - your damn right we have alot to be angry for this Last few days and the longer the body count gets the more pissed off this country is going to get, its going to be scarey, its already getting that way.

4,700+ people are missing and the pile of rubble is still 6+ stories high, with 10 city blocks wiped out.
The NYC mayor has requested 11,000 more body bags on top of the 30,000 already used- get the picture? These are not terrorism casualties - they are numbers that are seen on major battle fields in major wars.

Its just been announced that they are considering calling up the reserves... maybe its going to sink in with the rest of the world now, A war was started on tuesday.

God help the bastards who are involved and the countries that harbor them. They will unfortunately pay in a big way.

What a sad time.


[This message has been edited by AJC (edited 14 September 2001).]

[This message has been edited by AJC (edited 14 September 2001).]

Re: War....
 

"and i believe that AIRBUS is suppose to put boing and lockheed to shame as far as airliners go. sure, our military planes are lightyears ahead, but I think that airbus wins on the commercial market.

I also have to give props to our friends in England, who did lend a big hand cleaning up some of our nastier oil spills in the past, and whom continue to support our childlike pestering of Iraq."

Keep in mind when that was written. actually, given the support that's come in, playing that over..and over.. like seems to happening is downright disrespectful.

Phoenix-D

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This is what I got say.

I will live free or I will die fighting for it. No in between.

You people who think we are stupid, arrogant, and pathetic, you know what, I take that as a compliment. Because we could have sat back, and let all those petty dictators run you over.

How many of you would be alive now if Hitler succeeded? How many would know freedom if Stalin raged unchecked? How many americans would be free if the South had won? Where would Israel be without America? Would the Balkans be at peace today? What would China and the Pacific look like with the Japanese Empire today? Would Freedom be known if America didn't rebel so long ago?

I'll tell you... You owe more than you think to this country and the ideals we are founded upon.

I say.... REMEMBER THE TWIN TOWERS!

EDIT - I send thanks to all the people and governments that have looked past thier petty differences and united with the American Republic.

[ June 13, 2003, 07:07: Message edited by: General Talashar ]

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i was hunting about for a se4 file that used to be available that i just CANT FIND anymore, and i came across something that might be of significane to this thread. I wont disrespect the author by pasting it here, but I will let you follow the link.
http://www.angelfire.com/tv2/NewAgeShipyards/index.html

I trust that everyone will have the respect not to nitpick and belabor the points raised there, and that any differences of oppinion can be kept to ones self. I for one, agree with the sentiment raised there.

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I will not disagree.

War is sad, but sadly unavoidable at times.

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HADRIAN T. AVENTINE
admin@spaceempires.org
Administrator | SpaceEmpires.org

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Here is an interesting tid-bit...the United States National Anthem was played during the changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace today...a first.

Re: War....
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kimball:
Here is an interesting tid-bit...the United States National Anthem was played during the changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace today...a first.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

isnt it the same tune as "god save the queen?"

Re: War....
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kimball:
Here is an interesting tid-bit...the United States National Anthem was played during the changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace today...a first.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you really mean "The Star Spangled Banner"? Or do you mean "God Save the Queen" (King) as Puke suggests? This is used in the US with different lyrics (My Country 'Tis of Thee...) but it is not our national anthem. If they really played The Star Spangled Banner that would be quite an eye-opener. I guess it would be intended as a gesture of solidarity.

You know a great many foreign nationals were in the WORLD Trade Center, too. The current estimates on the BBC say British nationals killed will be 'in the middle hundreds', meaning around 500 I guess. That's close to 10 percent of the deaths and that's just one nationality. Japan estimates 100 missing, Australia close to 90, India can't make any good guesses but says Indian software companies were housed in the WTC, so it'll be more than a handful. It sounds like this will ultimately be a world tragedy rather than just an American one. Maybe it will result in really concerted international action and cooperation against terrorism. That would be much better than vigilantism by the US alone.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 14 September 2001).]

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Maybe it will result in really concerted international action and cooperation against terrorism. That would be much better than vigilantism by the US alone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, because group vigilantism is much better than the individual variety http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

not that im against it mind you, i just found the implication.. odd.

Re: War....
 

QUOTE]
yeah, because group vigilantism is much better than the individual variety http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

not that im against it mind you, i just found the implication.. odd.

[/quote]

Actually, when you act with your entire community it's not vigilantism. There is no "world government" to take care of these things, you know. So an international coalition is the closest thing to a "justice system" you're going to get. Hopefully they will work with/through the UN, in fact.

Re: War....
 

i keep hearing peole reference how many forign nationals were killed because its was the world trade center and not the american trade center or some nonsense like that.

if you go to any major US city, especially costal cities, you cant walk even a few blocks without tripping over ALL KINDS of forign nationals. and if you blow up ten square blocks in the financial district of any major metropolitian area, you are lible to get a few hundred of them from most major nationalities, at the least!

i guess my point is that this is a pretty open country, a close knit global economy, or something like that. draw your own conclusions. Id go on to belabor that whats good for us is good for the rest of the world, but if you dont want to go that far you can at least see that by virtue of the sheer number of forigners working in our cities, we have to have at least a few common interests with the rest of the world.

and its not like the WTC is an extension of the UN or anything, they just named the thing that because they thought it would make a neat sounding name for a landmark building. that and draw in companies from all over. it was a rather smart move, even if it did end up getting them targeted by two major terrorist attacks in the Last ten years.

[This message has been edited by Puke (edited 14 September 2001).]

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baron Munchausen:
Actually, when you act with your entire community it's not vigilantism. There is no "world government" to take care of these things, you know. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, the UN likes to try, and it looks like NATO is willing to help, but i get your point. i meant to suggenst that one guy is a vigilantie, a group or community used to be called a lynch mob. when they had a sherrif at the head, instead of just a drunk farmer, they got to be called a 'possie.' Maybe they will get to be called a task force or something, when its governments getting together, but i think the concept is basically the same.

again, not that im against it. I think a war on terrorism would be great, as long as it does not go the way of ronnie ray-gun's war on terrorism. i just find the parallel interesting.

Re: War....
 

Although I didn’t make any post here I’ve been reading this thread with interest.

Certainly this is a sad time for Americans, especially for those who could have lost anyone. I hope no one from this forum.
And I agree that something like this should have never happened and those responsible must be punished.

I admire your passionate patriotic reaction. That’s something I something I don’t think would happen in my country. I think it’s because our former military dictatorship government used patriotism to manipulate and control people and made so many atrocities in the name of the country, that now patriotism is seen as agreeing with all that.

That said I must say I agree with most non-americans here.
If something good can come from this is that we can discuss this
Americans are not as good as they believe they are, but that doesn’t make them necessary evil.
I hope you could understand that from some people’s point of view fighting for freedom could be fighting against american oppression.
History is written by the winners. They always forget their own defects and demonize the losers. The truth is that wars are fought by human beings, in every war both sides make terrible things.


I do not fear more terrorism attacks in the near future.
The plane crash strategy will certainly not work again without the surprise factor.

I empathize with your desire of revenge, but that doesn’t solve anything. Only thing you will do is create more anti-american feelings.
I hope that mentions of war were figurative, to appease angry people, meaning strong precautions against future terrorism and do not lead to an unnecessary massacre in any arab country.

A few thoughts and opinions,

Andrés

Re: War....
 

It was "The Star-Spangled Banner".

As a jaded, cynical, elitist American, I must say I'm heartened at the support that the rest of the world has shown for the US, both here and from what I see on the news. I can only hope it can be sustained.

At Last count, besides NATO, the countries I know of that have pledged support to the US include Israel (naturally), Russia, Qatar, Oman, Kuwait, Uzbekistan, and Pakistan. Apparently the Taliban have ticked some people off.

I feel for the populace of Afghanistan. Because of the actions of a (relatively) few, they will more than likely suffer a great deal. Iraq also.

War, to me, seems inevitable. Just not one which we've ever seen. I've taken this point of view: the US is going after criminals, arguably war criminals or criminals against humanity. Nations that help (or at least tolerate) their cause are considered to be harboring fugitives. We just happen to be bringing nearly our whole arsenal with us....

To those who hold the US in contempt, all I can say is, OK. I can sympathize, but I won't pretend to understand your point of view. Not without walking a mile or several in your shoes, anyway. Just don't hurt or kill any of us, lest we get pissed off.

BTW, Last night, one of the local TV channels ran a telethon for the Red Cross. In ten hours they had raised almost $300,000 to assist the victims in New York and Washington.

Quikngruvn

[This message has been edited by Quikngruvn (edited 14 September 2001).]

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Quikngruvn:


I feel for the populace of Afghanistan. Because of the actions of a (relatively) few, they will more than likely suffer a great deal. Iraq also.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ugh.
Isn't that what is happening now in the US?
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth is just going to leave the world with alot of blind, hungry people.

I don't want my country to get dragged into a war (and my pathetic excuse of a leader will be there lapping at George W's feet). I want the US to lead by example. To act with good sense and not get alot of innocent people killed because alot of innocent people were killed.

Is that too much to ask?

Askan

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EDIT. - Unnecessary post all but removed.

*Dogscoff wanders off in search of somewhere to sleep.

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 14 September 2001).]

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:
isnt it the same tune as "god save the queen?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I thought that was God Bless America. However as I speak 6:00 am CDT, they are singing our National Anthem in England at St. Paul's Cathedral (I think, it is the same place where Diana's funeral was). So, you may be right, Puke, but watch CSPAN2 later today.

Re: War....
 

Sorry, dogscoff, I didn't know that you already where quoting/replaying to me otherwise I would not have deleted my mail.
Right after my post I saw a comment that this comment was aired 25 years ago and as I didn't wanted to piss people off I did delete my post. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: War....
 

HEy dogscoff rememeber that the speach was written in 1973 by Gordon Sinclair ( Canadian ).

I think that is is not the time to be taking the piss at who built what but take the post on how it was. Rich04 posted this speach so others could seek comfort in it's words.
Nothing more nothing less.

Lets leave it at that.

P.S. I am not pissed off, but felt compelled to write this.

Take care dogscoff.

Tesco

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What will happen to Echelon now? Intelligence based solely on Technology is not enough. I can see encryption being Banned ( unless their is a back door )



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Here's to remind that we really DO sympathise.

http://coldleaf.org/thankyou.htm

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"Twice in my lifetime the long arm of destiny has reached across the oceans and involved the entire life and manhood of the United States in a deadly struggle.

There was no use in saying "We don't want it; we won’t have it; our forebears left Europe to avoid these quarrels; we have founded a new world which has no contact with the old. "There was no use in that. The long arm reaches out remorselessly, and every one's existence, environment, and outlook undergo a swift and irresistible change. What is the explanation, Mr. President, of these strange facts, and what are the deep laws to which they respond? I will offer you one explanation - there are others, but one will suffice.

The price of greatness is responsibility. If the people of the United States had continued in a mediocre station, struggling with the wilderness, absorbed in their own affairs, and a factor of no consequence in the movement of the world, they might have remained forgotten and undisturbed beyond their protecting oceans: but one cannot rise to be in many ways the leading community in the civilised world without being involved in its problems, without being convulsed by its agonies and inspired by its causes.

If this has been proved in the past, as it has been, it will become indisputable in the future. The people of the United States cannot escape world responsibility. Although we live in a period so tumultuous that little can be predicted, we may be quite sure that this process will be intensified with every forward step the United States make in wealth and in power. Not only are the responsibilities of this great Republic growing, but the world over which they range is itself contracting in relation to our powers of locomotion at a positively alarming rate.

We have learned to fly. What prodigious changes are involved in that new accomplishment! Man has parted company with his trusty friend the horse and has sailed into the azure with the eagles, eagles being represented by the infernal (loud laughter) - I mean internal -combustion engine. Where, then, are those broad oceans, those vast staring deserts? They are shrinking beneath our very eyes. Even elderly Parliamentarians like myself are forced to acquire a high degree of mobility.

But to the youth of America, as to the youth of all the Britains, I say "You cannot stop." There is no halting-place at this point. We have now reached a stage in the journey where there can be no pause. We must go on. It must be world anarchy or world order."

Winston Churchill.



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History shall be kind to me
for I intend to write it.


Winston Churchill.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:
well, the UN likes to try, and it looks like NATO is willing to help, but i get your point. i meant to suggenst that one guy is a vigilantie, a group or community used to be called a lynch mob. when they had a sherrif at the head, instead of just a drunk farmer, they got to be called a 'possie.' Maybe they will get to be called a task force or something, when its governments getting together, but i think the concept is basically the same.

again, not that im against it. I think a war on terrorism would be great, as long as it does not go the way of ronnie ray-gun's war on terrorism. i just find the parallel interesting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if I can ever punch through the knee-jerk assumptions that any "action" has to be military retribution we might discuss a "New World Order" that really isolates nations that harbor terrorists and shares information in a coordinated way that gets the terrorists caught. I see that some of the Europeans, like Askan and Andre Lescano, understand the real problem with macho revenge actions. Dropping millions of tons of bombs on Afghanistan and other remote havens for terrorists will only kill 5 or 10 percent of the terrorists, but will definitely radicalize a new generation of suicide bombers. What we need is a real international system that can detect the preparations that go into something as large as the WTC attack. Even in the spotty news we're getting now you can see that there was a lot of preparation that would have given warning if someone was paying attention.

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Here Here Baron. I agree 100% with you.

Going in to Afghan is a mistake.

Fighting a Static war against Gurellia tatics fails. The Last 300 years have proven this point over and over. The Afghan regulars and illregulars are a well trained and well motivated force. They are experienced and no doubt will remember all the lessions they learned fighting USSR.

I feel invading Afghan is wrong.


They should not be setting up task forces but sending in Special Ops to disrupt the terrorist camps, food supply and other supplies. Keep them on the move constantly. Find a camp and naplalm it so no usable material can be gained from the destroyed camp. And do it over and over.

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QUOTE:
we might discuss a "New World Order"
/QUOTE

An intresting lady on UK TV Last night on a news debate programme. SHe said a few things on this subject:

First, "globalisation". (According to her)The only countries really being globalised are the US, Canada, Europe, Australia etc. She reckons that until the process is extended to include other nations (ie truly global) then this kind of terrorism / hatred will continue. I'd like to hear more of her argument before I decide whether I agree on it. Anyone else see her on TV?

She also pointed out that this week a lot of politicians (notably Bush) have been repeatedly using the words "civilised world" in such a way as to imply that Arab countries are *not* civilised - which isn't really the case. They INVENTED civilisation.

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Re: War....
 

The word civilized is one of the key propoganda words. As is Democracy and Freedom. It gives the World a common ground to rally behind.

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Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

--John Lennon

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>First, "globalisation". (According to her)The only countries really being globalised are the US, Canada, Europe, Australia etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I’m from Argentina, I don’t think she included latin america among the few globalized countries she was talking about.
The fact that Baron Munchausen assumed I was european proves it doesn’t matter where I’m from.
Far way from here, our economy depends on (is managed by) the US, we are waiting to see how consequences of this incident will influence will influence international commerce and how that will affect us.

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On 11 September

Cry, O beautiful Nation!
This is your time of strife;
Into the heart of innocence
Was thrust an airborne knife.
The dagger of terror now appears
With blood up to its hilt;
The perches of eagles have hit the ground,
But they will be rebuilt.

Cry, O beautiful Nation!
This is your time of grief;
Friends and neighbors the world 'round
Are watching in disbelief.
Let flow the tears of sorrow
For the missing, for the lost;
But let not fear for tomorrow enter
Your thoughts at any cost.

Cry out, O adamant Nation!
This is your hour of strength;
The women and men who fight for you
Will go to every length.
Your flag still flies above the streets;
Liberty's light shines dear;
And all who believe in truth and right
Will surely persevere.

-- Eric Snyder II

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tesco samoa:
The word civilized is one of the key propoganda words. As is Democracy and Freedom. It gives the World a common ground to rally behind.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tesco, I agree with much of what you have said in this thread. And I do agree that we need to proceed very carefully over the next few weeks and months that we truley seek justice, and not simply revenge. But Democracy and Freedom are not simply "propoganda words".

What they truly represent to us is difficult to understand, and even harder to put into words. Many Americans even have no idea what they mean. But if we do not, it is not because we do not value them dearly. It is simply because they are so much an ingrained part of our identity, that we often take them for granted.

Geoschmo

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogscoff:
First, "globalisation". (According to her)The only countries really being globalised are the US, Canada, Europe, Australia etc. She reckons that until the process is extended to include other nations (ie truly global) then this kind of terrorism / hatred will continue. [/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhm, but globalisation is exactly that those terrorists are fighting.
They do NOT want to be globalised, they want to live in a place where there is no outside influence 'corrupting' their society .
These people have a quite different mindset than us. And they want to keep it that way.


[This message has been edited by Exculcator (edited 14 September 2001).]

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AJC, that is my favorite Lennon song. Of course, I usually stop at the first verse.

and yes, globalization is what the terrorists are fighting. yes, only first world nations are globalizing. they are globalizing INTO smaller nations where they setup sweatshops and take advantage of the local poverty. So far, it has been working really well for us, and im behind it. Of course its not all black, there are good points and benefits all around, but i wont take the time to argue that here.

and as for 'any response needs to be a violent one, involving the carpetbombing of terrorist states' (paraphrased) NO. I certainly would not mind seeing that, and i dont think it would be 100% counter productive, just oh.. 80% or so. Any response needs to leverage military, political, and economic force to completely eliminate the philosophys and ways of life that are so dyametrically opposed to western culture that the people following that set of beliefs has no recourse but to engage in guerillia (spelling?) warfare against the west. The western world has been destroying their way of life for centuries, and there is nothing they can do to stop us. they see it, and they are desperate. by comitting these acts, they are begging for their suffering to end. The cruelest thing we can do is to play 'nice guy' and only punish those directly responsible and leave the rest of the culture intact.

Its like playing SE4. your opponent has already lost, and their strength cant compair to yours. you have been at war for hundreds of turns, and you push them into a corner and force surrender. but you leave them with nothing and no hope of striking back, yet you are the 'nice guy' and you dont finish them off. both your people hate each other, but for some screwed up moral reason, you both just sit there in some sort of cold war standoff.

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In 1999, the adult population of the Palestinian territories was 1.4 million. Let's say that there are 2 million today. The average wage is about 5000 US$. (source: UNSCO report) So giving every adult a full year's wage would cost $10B. At the risk of sounding like an "ugly American" again, I wonder how many years worth of wages it would take to pay most Palestinians in Israeli-occupied territory to emigrate and never come back? Of course, some people wouldn't leave even for 10 years of wages, but most probably would, and that's "only" $100B. Considering that Bush has been authorized to spend $40B to combat terrorism, I wonder if simple bribery wouldn't be cheaper? Maybe it's my immigrant roots, but I'd leave the US for some other English-speaking country if someone paid my wife and I 20 years worth of wages. What about the rest of you? Am I a money-grubbing, disloyal, ugly American slimeball, or would some of you emigrate with me? And what about Palestinians? Is this plan insane, or stupid, or inspired?

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In regards to global orgainization to combat terroism, you already have one organization but it is limited in power. This is Interpol.
It would be easy to expand and increase their power but all or at least majority of nations would have to agree and fund it. This has good possibilities. Problem is getting nations to fund and back it. Possibly put under the UN, also s World Court for World criminals, IE terroists, international drug lords etc. We already have one for Genocide why not for international criminals? As far as dropping bombs everywhere, I agree that you use small elite reaction forces, find their bases & camps, hit them and keep hitting them where ever they set up. Keep them on the run, no rest, this keeps innocent casualty rates down at least and puts pressure on them, Black ball and blockade any nation that hides & supports them, put international pressure on these countries..

just some ideas mac

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by askan:
Ugh.
Isn't that what is happening now in the US?
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth is just going to leave the world with alot of blind, hungry people.

I don't want my country to get dragged into a war (and my pathetic excuse of a leader will be there lapping at George W's feet). I want the US to lead by example. To act with good sense and not get alot of innocent people killed because alot of innocent people were killed.

Is that too much to ask?

Askan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm sorry Askan, but like it or not your country is in the war. Every country in the world is "in the war". Because this isn't simply a war between the U.S. and Bin Ladin's organization, or even between the U.S. and Afganistan.

This truly was an attack on the world, despite what our own over zealous superficial press likes to say. The sheer numbers of people involved and the choice of targets and means to destroy them chosen will result in this being on of the most deadly terrorist attacks ever for several nations. Many countries have already listed numerous confirmed dead, and scores of missing among their citizens either in the airplanes or in the buildings.

And even if your country is lucky to avoid losing any of it's people, you must realize, as your leader will no doubt, that it must be stopped or it could happen in your country too.

The people that perpatrated this act do not simply hate Americans. They hate all people different than them. Do you really think that if they could remove every American from the face of the earth tommorow they would stop? No, they would find someone else to hate then, and go after them next.

Also, as far as "carpet bombing" goes. I looked back over the thread and found where I mentioned it. I don't know if I was the first one to use it, or if I was responding to somone else. But I did not mean indiscriminate carpet bombing. I was merely saying that if we have proof that Bin Laden is behind this, and the Afgan government refuses to give him up, then we will have to go in there and get him. Not with a few potshot cruise missle attacks. It will require bobming of training and support facilities. It will require troops on the ground to feret him out of hiding. It will result in the loss of many lives. Americans, Afgans, and others.

If a terrorist organization is hiding next to cilvilian areas, then some innocent lives will be lost. That happens in a war. It is tragic, but it happens.

Geoschmo

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dmm:

Yes, for most people I don't think that would do it. I wouldn't leave the USA for money. Many Palestinians wouldn't leave Palestine for money.

And sadly, even if they would, it wouldn't be an end to the conflict. The problem is thus: Israel feels the Palestinians are occupying their territories. The Palestinians reciprocate the feeling. Neither side is willing to live with the other. By definition, both sides are wrong, but they don't see it that way.

If this does turn into war--or somethign similar--there are going to be some very strange bedfellows, though. Let's say it's the Taliban/bin Laden. So, the US will suddenly be allied with the Russians and the Afghan rebels/Northern alliance--the very people we were fighting twenty years ago. Egypt and Saudi Arabia will be, by transitivity, allied with Israel.

We'll be allied with China, for goodness' sake.

Of course, there are other ramifications. If Pakistan doesn't support us, we suddenly have taken a side in the India-Pakistani war, creating further division there.

OK... enough rambling. I'm going back to work http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Eric

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Puke:

Its like playing SE4. your opponent has already lost, and their strength cant compair to yours. you have been at war for hundreds of turns, and you push them into a corner and force surrender. but you leave them with nothing and no hope of striking back, yet you are the 'nice guy' and you dont finish them off. both your people hate each other, but for some screwed up moral reason, you both just sit there in some sort of cold war standoff.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are 100% right there and up until WWI this was the accepted norm. You loose, all mine now, tough ****, end of problem.

But then propaganda crept in. Those big wars sure needed a lot of cannon fodder. So people had to be lured in.
'We are fighting the just cause'. Freedom! Democracy! Justice! for all. These became the slogans to rally behind. And people started believing their own propaganda, even after the war was won. And it was carried on into the next war and further into the cold war. The origins of WWI had nothing to with those concepts.
You may include the American civil war here, come to think of it. How many Americans today actually believe that war was for the liberation of the black man? Quite a lot I'd think.
A sense of morale has slowly crept into warfare that might not alltogether be that healthy.The resulting idea, to treat the vanquished enemy in a 'politically correct way', has created more problems than winning a war solved.
Not finishing Saddam off was a mistake, for instance. What if after WWII the Nazi regime had been kept alive? To keep the 'political balance' in europe intact.
Soft healers do indeed create stinking wounds.

But keeping up the idea that you are the 'Good Guy' entails that you must walk on glass, not to destroy that image.
America has been walking on glass a long time now, bearing the torch high. But cracks have appeared in the image, maybe it's time to drop the pretences.
America is an empire and it controls a huge part of the world, why not admit it.
But Someone will allways be on top and we could do a lot, lot worse than being under American domination.

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geoschmo

I agree with you 100%.


I was just mentioning how they are being used as a corollary and a resultant within the same sentance.

Propaganda:
The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.

The thing about writting something in a forum or newsletter or email is that sometimes the meaning is lost or misinterpided.

That post was not written in the intent of producing any slanderous idea's against the pilliars that humanity is built upon.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Exculcator:
How many Americans today actually believe that war was for the liberation of the black man? Quite a lot I'd think.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do.

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Really?

Not the opposing views of being a federation of independant states and that of preserving the Union ?

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I've picked up some interesting infomation, second hand. An acquaintance received an email from a friend in the military. He lives in New England, but the information seems to be relevant all over the country.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>

I'd like you to advise friends and co-workers that if they have nothing critical to do in Boston, they should NOT go. We were just briefed, unclassified, but the message was clear. We are still "under attack" and we need to be incredibly careful. You should also keep all travel, especially commercial air travel to a minimum, as we are getting strong indications that this is no where close to being finished

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just because this specifies Boston doesn't seem to me to exclude that similar warnings are appropriate for other cities in the US. Maybe Bush isn't exaggerating. Maybe we are at war. My best guess is that this email is part of an intentional strategy to warn people by word of mouth without making big public announcements and tipping off the terrorists. Let's all be careful, and let's all spread the word.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 14 September 2001).]

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm:
At the risk of sounding like an "ugly American" again, I wonder how many years worth of wages it would take to pay most Palestinians in Israeli-occupied territory to emigrate and never come back?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suppose it won't work, and anyway it wouldn't be considered a "civilized" way to deal with the problem. I also suppose it'll lead to more problems sooner or later.

The Romans did something similar to Israel in 70 b.C. - with a much ruder attitude.
Well, you know what have been the consequences in the Last 1900 years, and what's happening now... http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Exculcator:
Really?

Not the opposing views of being a federation of independant states and that of preserving the Union ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nope. It was slavery.

The southern states might have said they were leaving the Union because of the "States Rights" and all that crap. But the only "right" they cared about was the right to own slaves. If they weren't afraid, correctly or not, that Lincoln and the other northern states were planning on abolishing slavery, they wouldn't have cared if you called it a "Union" or a "Federation of States" or a "Grand Kegger".

We stopped being a federation of States when the constitution was signed. If that was the issue, they would have seceded then. The fact is they didn't, until it became apparent that slavery was going to end.

And whether or not the federal government would have fought to preserve the Union regardless of slavery is irrelevant really. Becasue if it weren't for slavery, there would have not been a reason for fighting to preserve the Union, because the Union wouldn't have split.

Geoschmo