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-   -   Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41 (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=42022)

vfb April 16th, 2009 05:44 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
The Visitor is broken as a CBM multihero because he's unique. When he appears in your capitol a second time, the first instance will vanish just like he'd been wished away. Not nice if he's leading armies about etc.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?p=686047

Trumanator April 16th, 2009 03:44 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Not sure if this is a CBM issue, but the Vanadrott's armor has exactly the same stats as that of Vanherses/Vanjarls, despite being "lightweight scale mail". It seems either an enc. decrease is in order, or a prot increase.

Illuminated One April 17th, 2009 07:47 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Is the moloch pretender any good in CBM?
I'd really like to use him some time, he looks cool for a nation heading towards demons, but all in all the prince of death seems to offer more. Also his paths aren't that useful to a demonic nation and 80 points for new paths... Can't the latter be changed to 30 or 40 to give him an edge against PoD (unless I'm missing something that does already)?

Wrana April 17th, 2009 06:05 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
I think he has slightly more hps and somewhat better stats. He also gets 3(?) free Imps at start of combat.
I would also like he to be more useful as Blood is mostly no problem to increase for nation with access to it, and Blood bless isn't so useful. And he is more rare than PoD...

Omnirizon April 19th, 2009 09:40 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
I propose that LA C'tis have all their national summons H level increased by one (at the very least)

reason:
LA C'tis is supposed to be a reanimate power that depends on these guys; ergo they should be a good deal, but as people have pointed out they are not.

consider this direct comparison:

LA Argatha can summon a Tomb Oracle at Conj5 for 30death with 3E 3D 3H and a ton of hitpoints, plus their are not `lifeless' and can benefit from regen; these guys can also reanimate.

LA C'tis can summon a Tomb King at Ench0 for 21death with 3H and a lot (but not a ton) of hitpoints, but they are lifeless and cannot regen; these guys can, of course, reanimate.

The only reason that no one cares that Tomb Oracles can reanimate is because they are so good no one would ever waste a turn doing that with them. For 9 more gems they get a ton more stuff. granted, they are Conj5 vs Ench0, but given the gem cost (ie. you won't summon either of these guys for a little while anyway) and the fact that Conj5 isn't really that difficult to access, I don't think the research requirement difference is really meaningful. Lastly, LA Argatha has other things they can benefit from such that Tomb Oracles do not have to be an integral part of their strategy (LA C'tis cannot, I believe, say the same thing about their tomb summons). Given these points, C'tis' tomb summons really need a push.

Conclusion:
do something to make Tomb Kings/Priests/Consorts on par with at least other national summons!!! one extra level of H would be nice, perhaps a possible random in death too.

Redeyes April 19th, 2009 10:22 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
I have noticed that some Giants (Niefel Jarls + EA Sacred, Hinnom Ashdod & Hinnom Rephaim, Gath Anakim, the Rasharaja) have speed 3. I think this is an unnecessary advantage and odd too, why should these giants be as quick overland as most cavalry and fliers?

Trumanator April 19th, 2009 10:45 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Well their legs are two or three times longer than humans.

iceboy April 23rd, 2009 03:34 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Is the release very soon? Love this mod! :)

Redeyes April 26th, 2009 04:59 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trumanator (Post 686814)
Well their legs are two or three times longer than humans.
I think that's better reflected in tactical movement.
There their advantage is just 7%~, to the 50/100% advantage against human strategical movement.



And another note:
Have you considered modding some of the magical sites?
I don't know if it is possible, but I would at least like to see at least the Ultimate Gateway and Summoning Circle changed.

Zeldor April 26th, 2009 05:45 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
If it's possible I want to remove all uber magic sites like Ultimate Gateway. Everything over 20% for schools and I guess all sites with construction bonus. Changes like that are a bit harsh, so it may be a good idea to use it in single mod before putting it into CBM [but I doubt that people would really protest here, that sites are really game changing].

Wrana April 26th, 2009 07:51 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldor (Post 688034)
[but I doubt that people would really protest here, that sites are really game changing].
I would like to take an opportunity to protest. :) If you want chess, you can make an absolutely symmetrical map in any case. Special sites are large part of the fun - even if opponent discovers them!

Redeyes April 26th, 2009 08:20 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Interest objecting in a discussion thread for a balance mod :)

I would be happy if the few sites which provide benefit greater than any other are brought in line, or unbalances things too much in favor of the controller.

I think the Sacrificial Circle and Ultimate Gateway are counted among those, though there can of course be differing thoughts on what constitutes "balanced"

Burnsaber April 26th, 2009 11:02 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrana (Post 688047)
If you want chess, you can make an absolutely symmetrical map in any case. Special sites are large part of the fun - even if opponent discovers them!
Yeah, some randomness is a bit sweet. But think about this. You are simply playing the game and then someone across the map finds the fabled "I Win Button" site, enters to it with and wins the game. Pretty boring huh?

Ultimate Gateway, Sacrificial Circle, etc.. are practically the same thing but worse since the effect is not instantenous. If your opponent in the former example had Ultimate Gateway instead of "I Win Button", you'd still be happily playing the game, without knowing that you have in fact, already lost.

Straight out confortational war? Ultimate Gateway guy wins since he has twice as much stuff as you have. Slow-grinding resource war? Ultimate Gateway guy wins since he can summon twice the guys you can. Blitz? Ultimate Gateway guy wins since he can instantly turn his gems into uber-cheap summon army.

However, the site-modding commands are a bit limited, so you can't alter the school bonuses these sites give. If you want some unigue uber sites, I'd probably suggest changing them to give high amount of gems (like 5+).

Starshine_Monarch April 27th, 2009 08:57 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
For something like this I think it would be a good idea to make the game announce the discovery of unique sites like these to the other players, like global enchantments.

By a message as simple as "(NationX) has found (Name of Unique Site)," it would alter the game in that, while the nation with the site still gets the original benefit, he'd be more likely to get ganged up on. So he has a 50% Conjuration bonus there and can summon twice as much stuff for the same price. With that announcement, he's more likely not just facing one other nation anymore, but more like 2 or 3, maybe more if they can hit him from behind the his immediate neighbors with stealth armies or teleporting/trapeezing SCs. If he wants the privilege of keeping that site, he now needs to step up his game and be good to his friends in order to keep from being besieged on all sides by hungry nations that want the site out of his hands.

Of course this isn't something that CBM can fix. I just thought I'd put in my two bits.

DonCorazon April 27th, 2009 01:55 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
I have mixed feelings about OP sites. On one hand, they are a blast to find and make site searching exciting. On the other hand, I tend to agree that they can be the decisive factor in competitive MP games. It seems pretty harsh to invest months into a game, and ultimately lose because your opponent effectively was able to double his resources via a site. I'd be curious to see when people post wins, what key sites they had. My sense is that it makes a pretty big difference.

Zeldor April 27th, 2009 02:54 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
I have Summoning Circle in one MP game and I can honestly say it's game changing. My nation is weak on B [Midgard], but I can get hordes out of that site. Really hordes of vampires. And other nasty stuff.

Aezeal April 27th, 2009 04:03 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
well some sites should just show on the map so you get a sort of king of the hill fight for those provinces

Burnsaber April 27th, 2009 11:36 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
I just want to state that I like the fact that there are some super-sites out there, it makes site searching exciting. But Ultimate Gateway is almost like having your own personal secret Arcane Nexus, it's just too much. Here are some ideas to replace the school bonuses on these sites:

1) Make them give lots of gems (like 5 or 6 in single type)
2) Cool recruitables.
3) Loads of money & resources?

err.. that's pretty much it. Althought I have something to add on the "recruitables" scenario. Now that we have the "unique" command, we could make a site that allows recruitment of a special let's say Seraph(with gold cost like 1000 gold?) from a rare unique magic site (since he's unique recruiting him again would just result in him teleporting back). Seraph might be a tad extreme, but I'm just throwing the idea out there.

Replacing the high school bonus site with these "SC sites" would still keep the excitment of site finding. The nice thing about the "SC's" would be that they would be pretty visible and not give some sort of hidden advantage. It might also be intresting to see someone to conquer the province with the SC site and make it suddenly switch sides in mid-war! It would be the obvious achilles heel to these guys.

Since this would require sort of adding new units, it might be out of jurisdiction of CBM. But I seem to growing fond of this idea. Heh, looks like I'llbe taking on another modding project sometime in the future...

Reay April 28th, 2009 01:11 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
I think the rest of the players should be notified in the message log when a bonus site is found.

This represents rumours spreading around the world about this famous site.

I don't think it should specify where it is exactly though? Maybe its just a myth. :)

DonCorazon April 28th, 2009 01:23 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
I like that idea. It would be cool and maybe help balance things if it specified a region of provinces where it might be found.

"A merchant arrives with tales that a mystical portal called the Ultimate Gateway has been found. His tales indicate it could lie in X, Y. or Z province."

Burnsaber April 28th, 2009 06:02 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonCorazon (Post 688228)
I like that idea. It would be cool and maybe help balance things if it specified a region of provinces where it might be found.

"A merchant arrives with tales that a mystical portal called the Ultimate Gateway has been found. His tales indicate it could lie in X, Y. or Z province."
That would be nice. But it cannot be done (nor can anything like that, actually) with the current modding tools. One can always dream..

But since we are talking about MP here, you could just devise a new rule on the games one hosts.

Quote:
"If a player finds a magical site [X, Y, Z] he must immediately send a message (using the in-game messaging system) to all other players about the finding and the province number where the site lies."
It's pretty easy to cheat out of this, but it can be pretty easily checked after the game if the guy actually had left a "I win!" site unannounced.

Illuminated One April 28th, 2009 05:06 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Hmm, I like the idea, really.
Maybe when I have time (and it can be added to llamaserver) I could make an external tool that does this.

llamabeast April 28th, 2009 06:14 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Sounds like a good idea to me Burn.

chrispedersen April 28th, 2009 08:51 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Hrm. p3e or pyg could actually probably code this; the guy that did the msg checker.

All you would have to do is check compile a list of unique sites and search the turn file for them. If found modify the turn file to include a message to everyone saying "Player Y has found Site X yada yada yada".

.*all*.

Burnsaber April 28th, 2009 11:12 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
OK, yesterday I did a list of problematic sites. There's 19 of them, and most of them are rare + unique. Steel ovens and Mount Chining are uncommon, thought. I used the following criteria (thanks to archaeo in the dom3 IrC channel)

alt and const: max 0%
conj and blood: max 20%
others: 30%

Code:
id#        name        era        frq        mask        lvl        type        F        A        W        E        S        D        N        B        gold        res        sup        unr        exp        lab        fort        runit1                conj        alter        evo        const        ench        thau        blood
474        Ancient Forge                2        735        1        Earth                                1                                                                                EPÄTOSI                                                        20%                       
481        Banefire Forge                2        735        1        Death        1                                        1                                                                EPÄTOSI                                                        20%                       
475        Chamber of Changes                2        735        1        Earth                                1                                                                                EPÄTOSI                                        20%                                       
477        Conjurer's Cave                2        516        3        Earth                                1                                                                                EPÄTOSI                                30%                                               
482        Crown of Darkness                2        16388        4        Death                                                3                                                                EPÄTOSI                                                                        40%       
466        Gorge of Mystery                2        256        2        Astral                                        1                                                                        EPÄTOSI                                        20%                                       
397        Mount Chaining                1        16607        1        Blood                                                                                                                EPÄTOSI                                                                                40%
520        Oak of Ages                2        16607        3        Nature                                                                                                                EPÄTOSI                                                                50%               
637        Pool of Unhealthy Rites                2        223        2        Blood                        1                        1                                                                                                        20%                                       
395        Summoning Circle                2        223        3        Blood                                                                                                                EPÄTOSI                                                                                60%
471        Temple of the Turning Tide                2        223        1        Water                        1                                                                                        EPÄTOSI                529        Sea Father                20%                                       
696        The Basalt Forge                2        16640        2        Earth                                1                                                                                                                                        20%                       
495        The Blood Rock                2        16388        3        Blood                                                                                                                EPÄTOSI                                                                                30%
401        The Ebony Circle                2        16607        2        Blood                                        1        3                                                                TOSI                339        Sorcerer        30%                                               
313        The Ultimate Gateway                2        17119        3        Astral                                                                                                                EPÄTOSI                                50%                                               
173        The Steel Ovens                1        17119        0        Fire                                                                                75                                EPÄTOSI                                                        20%                       
455        The Water Solstice                2        16416        2        Astral                        4                2                                                                        EPÄTOSI                                                                50%               
484        Twisting Woods                2        2        1        Nature                                                        1                                                        EPÄTOSI                                        20%                                       
305        Village of Strange Men                2        223        1        Astral                                        1                                                                        EPÄTOSI                                        20%
I admit, it's pretty hard to read. But anyone out there is doing such a program, he can pick the names from there.

lch April 29th, 2009 02:15 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrispedersen (Post 688378)
Hrm. p3e or pyg could actually probably code this; the guy that did the msg checker.
That was Illuminated One, who already posted above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrispedersen (Post 688378)
If found modify the turn file to include a message to everyone saying "Player Y has found Site X yada yada yada"
That's nothing else than hacking the turn files. It would require breaking through the game's safety measures. A program that just reads the turn files and finds out if a nation found a new site that hasn't been uncovered before, then allows to prepare a MOTD on a website or an email to all, would be quite a feat.

Wrana April 29th, 2009 08:31 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
An idea of such sites being announced to all players is good. Of course, it will require cooperation from those who find them. In this case, it's a pity that the current patch doesn't allow sites to be seen by scouts/scrying. Of course, this also goes beyond the mod scope...
As for unique recruits idea, I don't think it has any feasibility. By the time such sites are found and become useful, one more SC just isn't going to cut it. He will be much more useful if site is found at early game, but it probably won't be found at this time. "Lots of gold and resources" probably fall into the same category - they are useful at start, but not so much at lategame, while discount sites are other way around.

llamabeast April 30th, 2009 04:35 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
With lch's help, it looks possible that such a feature could be included in the llamaserver. That won't be for a couple of months though.

Burnsaber April 30th, 2009 11:36 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by llamabeast (Post 688595)
With lch's help, it looks possible that such a feature could be included in the llamaserver. That won't be for a couple of months though.
Sweeet.

That's pretty much the best fix. It takes away the most problematic aspect of these sites, the secrecy. Now their power has price.

You found Sacrificial Circle? Congratulations, you can use it to attain great power. Just be prepared to defend it. At least the player who finds the site has two turns to reinforce his defenses.

May I also suggest to make the post to other players pretty epic. I was thinking something along the line of the Dire Portent messages when someone casts a global. Different one for each site would be perfect, me thinks, but could be a lot of work. If there's need for it, I could take a shot at writing these messages (there probably are better writers out there, thought).

In the mean time, I made a mod to eliminate the 19 problematic sites (DBS = Disable Bonus Sites). I've set them to rarity = 5, so that they cannot be randomly generated, only placed by map and mod commands.

Wrana May 1st, 2009 03:11 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Agree - that would be the best way.

lch May 1st, 2009 03:19 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnsaber (Post 688636)
May I also suggest to make the post to other players pretty epic. I was thinking something along the line of the Dire Portent messages when someone casts a global. Different one for each site would be perfect, me thinks, but could be a lot of work. If there's need for it, I could take a shot at writing these messages (there probably are better writers out there, thought).
Yeah, you should better give examples of what you'd like to see instead of merely suggesting them. That way they'll be implemented a lot faster. :)

Illuminated One May 1st, 2009 05:13 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnsaber (Post 688636)
Quote:
Originally Posted by llamabeast (Post 688595)
With lch's help, it looks possible that such a feature could be included in the llamaserver. That won't be for a couple of months though.
Sweeet.

That's pretty much the best fix. It takes away the most problematic aspect of these sites, the secrecy. Now their power has price.

You found Sacrificial Circle? Congratulations, you can use it to attain great power. Just be prepared to defend it. At least the player who finds the site has two turns to reinforce his defenses.

May I also suggest to make the post to other players pretty epic. I was thinking something along the line of the Dire Portent messages when someone casts a global. Different one for each site would be perfect, me thinks, but could be a lot of work. If there's need for it, I could take a shot at writing these messages (there probably are better writers out there, thought).

In the mean time, I made a mod to eliminate the 19 problematic sites (DBS = Disable Bonus Sites). I've set them to rarity = 5, so that they cannot be randomly generated, only placed by map and mod commands.
I guess if you are doing that the best format would be

id [tab] Text [some sign that is never used like @][break]
...

Or leave the id way and make just a line for every possible site ordered by ID.

Text [some sign that is never used like @][break] for sites that should be announced
- [break] for normal sites

That would require the least amount of reformating.

llamabeast May 1st, 2009 05:31 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Quote:
That won't be for a couple of months though.
Quote:
At least the player who finds the site has two turns to reinforce his defenses.
Lest there was any confusion, I meant it will be a month or two till I have time (because I will have finished my thesis! yay!). Then hopefully there is going to be a party of llamabeast activity, not least I will finally release my endgame summons mod and fix the lovely long list of llamaserver suggestions and glitches.

Burnsaber May 2nd, 2009 03:10 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lch (Post 688794)
Yeah, you should better give examples of what you'd like to see instead of merely suggesting them. That way they'll be implemented a lot faster. :)
Okay, heres a quick one for Ultimate Gateway. It's not too polished, just to show what I mean. I can write one for each site, if you have the need.

Quote:
The myths have been proven right! A great pillar of light has been seen, ascending to the heavens from province Y. The God X has found the tear in reality, the festering wound on creation, the one caused by ancient horrors in times aeons past. It is a source of great arcane might, the Ultimate Gateway between which is and which can be, a testament of pure potential. Extraodinary creatures previously known only in myths and legends will heed the call of the Gateway, flocking to the well of arcane might. X can easily subjugate these creatures into service and use their might on the rise to godhood.

The endless legions of creatures from the gate are a sign of God X's divinity and will soon flood the world. Show that you are the one true God! Take the Ultimate Gateway from the heretics and make the legions scream your name!
I admit that there is a possibility of just using the informational route, but I don't think that would thematically fitting to game like dom3.
Quote:
The God X has found site A, which grants conjuration bonus of Y. The site resides in province B.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnsaber
At least the player who finds the site has two turns to reinforce his defenses.
Oh, Llamabeast what I meant by this was that when this is implemented, the guy who finds the site has would probably have two turns to reinforce his defenses. Since I don't know how this mystery program works, it's just a quess. Should've mentioned that.

Turn X: Player 1 finds Ultimate Gateway, starts sending in mages & protectors. Player sends his turn. The amazing program finds that Ultimate Gateway has been found, sends message to all other players.

Turn X+1: Other players receive the message of the Gateway. NAP's are cancelled, Teleports & Cloud Trapezes casted, mayhem ensues*.

So player 1 has turns X + (X + 1) to establish defences before any actual attacks & battles may happen.

* Well, probably not. People are usually busy in MP and probably won't have resources to assault another player immediately just because he found a cool site. But you know, diplomacy might be tough if people know that you have a gateway.

Zeldor May 2nd, 2009 04:23 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
In my MP game my neighbours know that I have Summoning Circle for 50 turns. And some of them tried to do smth about it, their lives were short and miserable :)

lch May 2nd, 2009 05:28 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnsaber (Post 688867)
Since I don't know how this mystery program works, it's just a quess.
The "mystery program" would know that a new site has been found exactly in the turn that the site has been uncovered by a player. It could then generate a report via mail or web to other players, or postpone this by a few turns, if a more elaborate mechanism which caches those is being used.

JimMorrison May 3rd, 2009 06:23 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Seems to me that just cutting them is a little heavy handed. Since they can't be modified, a module could be built for CBM that disables these, but makes new versions with the same name, that are given weaker - but still useful - bonuses.

But it needs to be optional, so you can still have them available in SP, while also enjoying CBM.

Zeldor May 4th, 2009 07:19 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
BTW, Leprosy really has to cast at least 10D. And it can be too cheap at 10. It easily affects even mages.

Aezeal May 4th, 2009 04:31 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
you could give them other malussus though death 3, misfortune 3. but I have to admit that might not be enough.
Personally I think the message is a good solution though.

Wrana May 5th, 2009 12:41 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Death would be wrong thematically. Misfortune - maybe, for some.

mathusalem May 9th, 2009 01:13 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
I think there is a bug : agartha LA, blind fighter with A8...

CBM is the only mod I use.

Aezeal May 9th, 2009 02:51 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
do you have the latest version? (I seem to recall this was mentioned a few versions ago)

llamabeast May 9th, 2009 04:11 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
If you redownload, mathusalem, you will find that bug has magically disappeared.

Aezeal May 9th, 2009 07:11 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
though there are some that state it's not a bug but just a much needed balancing thingie for agartha

mathusalem May 9th, 2009 08:06 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
you're right, I had a older version, sorry !

Jazzepi May 10th, 2009 02:42 PM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Mother of monsters should really be able to command her auto-summons. As is, she has 5 magic command, which isn't enough to handle her own freespawn.

Jazzepi

Lingchih May 12th, 2009 01:01 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Could Helheim get a bit of love in the next CBM? I know they were pretty well nerfed a while back.

Trumanator May 12th, 2009 01:31 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Something I just noticed in Beyond: Shatter is range 10! How on earth are you supposed to hit anything with that? I doubt its high on the AI's priority list.

Redeyes May 12th, 2009 10:25 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lingchih (Post 690418)
Could Helheim get a bit of love in the next CBM? I know they were pretty well nerfed a while back.
Vanheim before Helheim, I had say.

chrispedersen May 12th, 2009 10:53 AM
Re: Conceptual Balance Mod 1.41
 
Yomi, Agartha, TC, Oceania before either = )


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