Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

He needs those emails in order to set them up on llamaserver, well unless llamaserver automatically uses the email address, from which the pretender was sent, to send to the turns of the corresponding nation.

Yes, when someone is eliminated he should post here and I'll updated the first post with the current status.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

Llamaserver is abolutely automatic at this aspect and uses the email address a pretender was sent from. I'm surprised you didn't know this:).

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

ok then. Thanks for letting me know. less work for rdonj is certainly a good thing.

Damn, this server is good :)

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

Strabo:

Check your settings again, please:

"Strabo has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her."

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

Yes, it is very good. Of course it lacks a few minor things but not too many. As a person who works at this area I see a great amount of work there done at pure enthusiasm of llamabeast.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

There was a minor mistake during PM'ing process and it happened so that (as I am nearly sure) I know a nation of another player. I don't know his playing style or anything and if this is ok we may just continue and ignore. I just thought that it is not exactly correct.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

Zeldor:
Strange, but settings says that PM are enabled.
If nothing helps can you send my nation on gusgov [at] mail [dot] ru?

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

2Natpy
Personally I don't care though it is probably not very correct to begin with.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

2Strabo
If possible, don't use mail.ru account with llamaserver. It is well known to be problematic. OTOH, Gmail works perfectly with llamaserver and never fails.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

2ano
mail.ru failed only once and works pretty good, but I have an alternative gmail account though

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

Probably it is a matter of personal experience:)

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

I got my nation, and I understand the point of RAND now, I guess I just needed some further qualification. So absolutely no diplomacy, and as WraithLord said, there should be no in-game PMing. Not even insults, I presume, as I think even that could be giving information away.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

I haven't received my nation yet.. will PM as well

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

Natpy:

Well, you know that someone has some nation, without nick, so no problem here. Every nation is used :)

Strabo:

Still same thing, contact someone here [Mindi?] to get that solved - you will need PMs, for example for game admin to contact you. I will email you the nation now though.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

Well, I know who two people are. Though it seems I don't have to know anyway. I'm going to need the admin password to grant extensions though or any other admin business, so if you still need me for that I need it at some point.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

I thought you were the one to start the game. You should know the password then. :)

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

Just a heads-up to whoever starts this game that there are several Glory of the Gods maps on the llamaserver, with most of them being listed near the end under the "User Added Maps" section. I think the most up-to-date one is Glory of the Gods 3.17, which apparantly fixes a number of issues that the vanilla map had.

Although I just checked now, and there are some Glory of the Gods maps on there with 23/24 fixed start locations. Not sure how they would work out if only 19 nations started on them.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

Yes. I'm not sure which version would best suit us. The options are:

1. Vanilla MP version. No fixed locations.
2. 3rd edition for the 'Art of War' says: "This map has fixed starting locations for the game 'Art of War'."
3. Modded starting positions says: "Glory of the Gods Multiplayer, ran through script @

http://users.on.net/~dfidge/cgi-bin/dom3map.pl

to make minimum amount of neighborin provinces at start to be 3, shouldn't start in the middle of a swamp either...

227/47 provinces."

All the rest are SP versions and have 480 provinces. They are not appropriate.
I'm not sure which I prefer better, option 1 or 3. Well I'm somewhat leaning towards 3...
I don't see any rush to create the game now so I'll wait to hear some opinions before creating the game - tomorrow.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

Game is not created yet. Of course I'll send you the pwd once it's there :)

And while we're at it, I just discovered a fourth possible GotG map on the server:
4. MP ver. 3.17. says:
"All of these maps suffered from the problem of terrain types being too mismatched and having errors. The Glory maps (especially the multiplayer version with fewer provinces) had some big problems with some regions being nearly impassable, requiring units with multiple survival skills to move more than one province at a time. I've cleaned that up some, so it's now a little bit more movement friendly in the plains type regions than it was. Also checked neighbors, those are now all correct.

The Urraparrand map suffered from the problem that it was nearly completely impassable both in the vertical and horizontal direction, so I made some neighbor connections over the very narrowest straits. Should be much more playable right now. The problems were especially apparent since the map is a wraparound and you never could really move around the world on it before.

The map files were fixed using the same criteria I did for Cradle and Parganos way back when, so they are good. [Editor's note: That means all provinces eligible for being start locations must have at least 4 land neighbors and sea start locations must have 3 or more sea neighbors. Additionally, start locations cannot be in waste or swamp provinces. Some few provinces that would otherwise be startable are not because they would onlyhave waste or swamp as neighbor, thus being economically crippling despite having a proper number of neighbors, but such provinces only amount to very few on any given map]
"

This one sounds like the version that got the most attention to the vanilla version glitches. I like this option. I think I'll go with it, although I'll stick to the original plan of hearing out opinions until game creation - tomorrow.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

Actually there's no problem to create map with more or less balanced starting locations - I did it many times. Obviously it is the best option because it guarantees that players will be in equal positions at start.
If it is ok, I may do it tomorrow because I have free time. If not, I vote for option 3 (now 4 if it has any effect on starting positions) of course. Map has large wasteland and swamp regions so starting somewhere near the edge there is a big pain.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

I think the most up do date version of Glory of the Gods 3.17 is likely to be a good choice. Anything we can do to balance the starting positions so someone doesn't start in a swamp or something is great. My pretender is ready.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

Yes, it should be Glory of Gods 3.17.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

Starting in swamp terrain should be fine, it's starting next to swamps that's the problem, no? (Obviously a lot of swamps are going to be both since the terrain is clumped together, but it's the neighbors that are the concern, not the cap itself.)

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

Game is created on server, here. You can start uploading pretenders. If you are not yet familiar with the procedure please read here.

Game is scheduled to start this Thursday.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [full, rolling nations]
 

Thanks for setting this game up, WraithLord.

For clarification, the game is named YARG1, and pretenders need to be emailed with "YARG1" as the subject line. If you send your pretender with "YARG" or anything other than "YARG1" as the subject line, your pretender will not be accepted.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

Probably kind of obvious, but I'll mention just to make sure: Please refrain from comments such as my pretender is ready, or I just loaded my pretender etc.

Anything that give a hint who you are should pass through rdonj via PM. TIA!

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

Yeah I agree with Micah, the one who start in the swamp down south is destined to lose for sure no matter the nation or the player, I know, I started there once and it wasn't pretty.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

I started once with LA Mictlan planned for rush in NE corner of Cradle, and it was 10+ swamp provinces to nearest neighbor. That was fun.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

That's what I meant when I spoke about balanced starting locations. I don't like randomness and situations where luck decides everything.
But as this seems to be the point of this very game, I don't mind

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

Magic sites at LA standard 35%?

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

TwoBits, yes.

Executor, this map is not 100% balanced and it's a matter of opinion and personal taste whether or not this is acceptable. Dominions is any way a game that is heavily influenced by luck (see: lab destroyed on turn three, or 1500 gold received on turn 1 etc) and I personally like it that way.
IMHO opinion 100% balanced games are more boring (not plain boring, just more boring). Anyway YARG1 does not strive to be fully balanced. I suggest to see how this game works out, if there are serious gripes when it ends we'll try to improve for the next round.

Also, for future reference, I wanted to ask what you guys think re. the following:
- How about if LA Ermor was allowed in this game, but had to pay a penalty. It's capital would be worth one VP to Ermor player but three VPs to any other player that controls it. In addition, Ermor player must control 11 Vps in order to win.
Would that balance Ermor awesomeness enough to allow it to join the game?

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

TwoBits
Yes.

Executor
It is a reworked for MP version of a map, so swams are not so nasty.

I was designing starting locations on this map for another game not so long ago, and I must say it is difficult to avoid placing anyone into the swamp or desert area.

Edit:
Ninjad by WraithLord. :)
WraithLord
I was thinking if Ermor is allowed in the game, perhabs there should be a starting dominion cap for him?

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

I'll tell you what will happen in this case.
Ermor's neighbours will be still crippled by his dominion while someone on another side of the map grows powerful. Then that "someone" teleports 6 stonerainers onto Ermor capital and the next turn gets 3 VP. Problem with Ermor is mainly with driving its neighbours out of the victory race and your suggestion doesn't help.
I may sound annoying but, IMO, Ermor, may be be allowed only
1) with fixed startlocs
2) somewhere in the map corner
3) its neighbours should be given some indirect bonuses like increased cap population.

All 3 quite easily doable in an hour of map editing. Under these conditions, I think, Ermor may be allowed in such a game.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

My previous experience with Ermor shows it can sometimes be defeated by an alliance or even by a bless rush or SC rush. The real problem is you gain so little and sacrifice so much to achieve that. Putting a high price tag on Ermor's head in the form of 3 VPs should provide enough motivation and reward for players to come and kill Ermor.

When that is the case I don't see any reason to limit Ermor. Let him do the best he can to survive under *these* conditions.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

WingedDog, Wrathlord,
I know it's impossible to make perfect balanced maps and positions, and I know luck is a great factor in the game, finding 50% conjuration makes a huge difference, but I'm just saying while those ingame event can't be stopped, nor should they, start locations can, and should.

If one starts in the middle of 10 farm provinces and the other player starts in the middle of 10 swamp provinces, well I'll bet on the first guy, and those sort of things should be avoided as much as possible.
I know some nations must start next to the swamp, or deserts, but they don't need to start in the very middle of it, province number 15 for example, which was marked as a start position in a game I was in for some reason!?

As long as those sort of fatal starting locations aren't set I'm good. For example 42, or 51 instead of 15 should be workable, if you get what I', trying to say?

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

I don't want to argue but I'm just sure that in no-diplo game noone will attack Ermor and if someone captures his capital it will be the case I described above. Ermorian capital is tasty as it is with 15 death gems in a poor magic world. Add 3 VP's on top of that and well equipped Seraphs/Cyclops/anything else with wall breaking items will appear there sooner or later

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

IMO VP incentives and penalties are nearly meaningless with such a high requirement to win. Having Ermor's cap be worth 3 VPs would be interesting if you needed 5 VPs to win, since that would put you within one conquest of winning, but when you still need to win multiple wars to win the game it isn't very helpful, especially since whoever does end up in game-winning contention can just scoop it up from the player that actually takes out Ermor in the first place.

A dominion restriction would probably be much more effective, but I'm not sure what a reasonable number would be. (This also hurts Ermor a bit more by preventing them from taking awe on their pretender)

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

2Executor
That's exactly what I've been saying for a rather long time. IF we want an interesting competitive game we need to give everything more or less equal starting conditions. For example, I doubt one'll have a large motivation to play well if he starts in a desert/swamp region and I understand it well. WL, if you remember Qwerty, on turn 9 I had 8 neighbours, 3 of which were very close to my capital. On top of that there were only wastelands around me and if not my ally there I would have surely fallen very fast. But here are no allies and no diplomacy.
2Micah
Yes, dominion restriction might be a very good idea. Something like 7 should be fine, I think

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

The map link only contains the .map files.
As I understand it, these are not needed by the players. Only the graphic file MUST exist in the players maps directory to participate in the game? Or is this different for pbem games?

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

Yes, only a graphic

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

Executor, ano: are you saying that the 3.17 MP GotG map contains fatal, balance wise, errors?- if so, what do you suggest?- Do you want to make a fix and upload it to the server as a user submitted map?- Otherwise I see no point in cont. this discussion re. this game, we will just have to make do with this version, which is the most "fixed" version of the map to date.

re. Ermor, yes, I understand your points and I agree dom restriction would work better. I'll remember that for the next YARG.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

Yes, I think it does contain issues that affect the balance. Center top region is wastelands+mountains, middle bottom region is swamps, left bottom region is wastelands+mountains while center region consists mainly of farmlands (approximately 12 packed farmlands). Yes, I think that whether you start in one of the former or in the latter will pretty much decide the game for you. Is it balance wise? Probably yes. Is it fatal? Yes, if you start in a "dead" region.
On top of that random starting locations mean that some people may have their capitals very close while other will have a lot of place to expand. Does it affect balance? Probably yes. Also, I think I described all my reasons and points quite clearly.
What do I suggest? I wrote it yesterday saying that I have a free Sunday and may spend some time working on the map but noone reacted.
I am probably still able to do it but only if people want too. If everyone is ok with starting in dead mountain\wasteland region then I'm ok too. But if it occasionally happens to me I'll probably won't stay for long.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

Are you sure you checked really the MP map with correct version? I know it is true for SP version, but MP one just looks like that on graphics, but when you look at terrain types it's really different.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

ano, your points are clear. while I can live with whatever fate would give me I can relate to why you'd prefer a more balanced map. I have no objections to that and in-fact would appreciate if you'd want to go through the map and try to fix it.
If you do manage to come up with something acceptably balanced I'll restart the game with it (after you UL it to the server).

Thank you for your involvement and offer to help!

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

Zeldor
Double-checked it...
It's true about wastelands\mounts at N and SW and farmlands in the center. Not so true about swamps because some were changed

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

WL, don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining in any way about the map, it's your game - your rules, I don't have a problem with anything, well maybe Ermor a bit.

I'm just saying, every map contains "fatal, balance wise, errors" as you said. And a lot of wins can be predetermined by those flaws as everyone is well aware. So it may not be a bad idea to fix them a bit if possible, since it'll make the game more enjoyable for everyone, not just the few lucky starts.

And I am as well good with what fate gives me, however others usually are not. :)

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

WraithLord
To change the map you actually don't have to restart the game as far as I remember. It is one of the "settings" that llamaserver allows to be changed by admin.
Ok, I'll work on the map today and post the results here.
Executor
You once again voiced my thoughts

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

:) :)

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

The game will always involve quite a bit of luck, no matter how much you try to avoid this. That said, I am happy with ano attempting to make the starting locations as balanced as possible. I'd like to see the final version of the map we will use. I will be satisfied with it almost certainly. I am ready to get started on this map, too. Nothing will ever be perfectly balanced. I think that is part of the fun of the game, and spending too much time on attempting to accomplish the impossible is a lesson in futility.

I don't think it's a good idea to try to nerf Ermor to the point that they are playable in a game like this. I vote to simply keep them out of this and future RAND games. It seems easier than putting artificial constraints on them like a dominions cap or a more valuable capital for VP. Keep R'lyeh out, as well. Don't try to hobble them in some way just to include them. This is a clugy and stilted solution to something that is not a problem.

Re: YARG - Yet Another RAND Game [Uploading pretenders]
 

StrictlyRockers
I nearly finished the map and will post it here soon with comments.
Regarding balance and such things I may tell you that during Qwerty game (which I mentioned somewhere above) I decided not to create games with random locations anymore and the next game I hosted I spent some time to dive into the mapmaking process. The result was really cool in Stasis game - people were absolutely satisfied with the balanced starts.
That's why now I prefer to play with predefined starts in every game I participate. As Executor correctly said above, it is impossible to eliminate the luck element in this game and it should not be done, but maps and start locations can and should be balanced to make the game more interesting and competitive and more dependent on player skill than on blind luck.