Re: Exploit question
 

Wow. Since the last time I posted, this has gone from being a discussion of using Bogus' copied orders, to a discussion/argument on gemgens, and then of course to monkey PD. This is like the all-in-one topic of all time!

Re: Exploit question
 

Crazy indeed. Shows there is still a lot of passion out there for a game that was launched in 2006. The pretty models adorning the Shrapnel Banners seem quite passionate about the game too. Takes the sting out of being double teamed when you imagine your opponents might be the ladies from the Banner ads. ;)

I was also going to ask if hiring and toasting indy priests with "Life after death" in effect is considered mainstream or an exploit? But... I'm... not... sure... I should....
-ssj

Re: Exploit question
 

Clever Baalz, very clever indeed. :)
50 provinces for two players and easy research, so you automatically skip the most dangerous phase... just pick Bandar Log in a real game with old-timers, and win it. My respect towards you will skyrocket then - though I bet my two games will end earlier.

Re: Exploit question
 

So the most dangerous part is the part where clams have no effect? I don't even know what you're arguing, and apparently neither do you.

I came up with what I thought was a scenario to show that against some fairly fast expanders who would presumably out expand Bandar you could still be competitive. In a time frame where according to you lack of gem gens would cripple a nation who has "troops that suck". I specifically include every nation you mention here as a potential challenger, with the considerable advantage of knowing ahead of time exactly what I'm playing...and you think I stacked the odds in my favor? I'm answering the assertion that my suggested strategies "just don't work" and "nobody has ever [or can ever] win with Bandar", and I think it's a pretty big stretch to try and claim I contrived an artificially favorable scenario.

So, I call BS and ask for you (or anybody) to prove to me the ludicrous claim that Bandar Log "can NEVER win NEVER". Should be easy to do, no? All I've got is a bunch of theorycraft which doesn't really work.

Re: Exploit question
 

I have promised not to play anymore. I dont say such things lightly, hm?

Most dangerous part is when you have no clams and no research. Just a bunch of apes.
And 1vs1 duels are different from real games with lots of players, you know that. Even where your tricks can win one war, they wont be enough to bring you victory in a real MP environment.
I know monkeys can win one early war with just 2 or 3 kinnaras (perfectly possible without clams) and perhaps some yakshas/nagas. I did it myself, you know, before I started bombarding you with golems and Kinnaras in Lapis. I didnt start that game with a ton of clams.
Problems start later (or before).

And I dont have to prove you anything. Say what you might, but when Pythium has over 7 victories in MA, Pangaea has at least 5, Abyssia-Shinuyama-Jotunheim-Caelum have 3 victories each and Bandar Log has ZERO, it has everything to do with nations power. Kek, Bandar Log didnt even win Cripple Fight. :) If you want to prove otherwise - go ahead, do it. Prove us that your theorycrafting about unstoppable markatas works in real MP.

Re: Exploit question
 

:fire: :troll:

:cheers:

Re: Exploit question
 

I'd like to point out that the first Cripple Fight actually didn't include a fair number of nations that are almost universally perceived as weaksauce, including both Oceanias, Marverni, and both Mans. It included some nations that I'm pretty sure weren't considered weak, like Gath and EA Aby. HoF means very little I think.

Since it used CBM 1.5, there were gemgens, and they are nearly the only reason MA Atlantis won, since he was able to simply turtle underwater and still maintain an income of several hundred pearls.

Re: Exploit question
 

Lingchih:

You forgot about Setsumi drama :P

Trumanator:

Exactly, Abysia had clams and stones too though. He did not used them so well. I wasted few hundred S too probably. And there was Ermor with clamhoarding too. It was extremely lame - Atlantis with no N mages at all. So strat is to empower on W guy in N, summon Naiad, forge clams, cast maelstrom, get more naiads, get more clams, put nexus, get seraphs -> win.



There are some national changes that had to be in 1.6 but did not make it. I am sure there will be many more national balance things in cbm 1.7. Maybe QM won't be afraid to do it now [as taking gemgens out was rather risky thing, but most people support it now]. There are some real things to be done, for example lowering MA Pythium cap gem income.

Re: Exploit question
 

Oh, since you mentioned Setsumi (actually, I dont think it was brought up here yet, you're the first) - I hope LA Ermor will be buffed in CBM 1.7, by lowering the cost of Spectators and Dusk Elders. )))))) Chaff is so weak and useless, after all. :P

Re: Exploit question
 

As with many of the absolute statements about this sucks or this always wins it always tends to break down into but of course I meant this size game with this number of players on this size map using this mod and this winning condition.

Thats one of the problems I have with discussions of balance. They tend to pigeonhole the game into specifics which knock out some of the balancing features, and then either complain about them or try to "fix" them. And any mention of games outside those parameters are tossed aside.

Re: Exploit question
 

/me breaks chair over Kuritza's back

Even if your tricks can win you a fight with a woman, they'll never work against a *real* man. I have laid waste to countless nations, the bodies of my enemies block the sun in a towering pile including several with monkey shaped footprints on their face. The most dangerous part of the game is the part where you rumble with Baalz. And I don't have to prove that, I just have to say it with enough spit flying out my mouth!

/me throws down the mic and flexes from the top ropes.

Ps. Nobody up for a duel? :( Lots of time off for xmas...

Re: Exploit question
 

Cant say I understood what you meant by this, but I distinctly remember MY monkeys killing something Baalz-shaped, hammer-wielding and slightly insane from that Dimensional Rod... All thanks to NOT following your advise to rely on apes as your main fighting force. ))))))

Re: Exploit question
 

B,
I'd love to blitz over Xmas but the wife would kill me. I'm sure I'd be beat like a rented mule but that's how you learn. ;)

PS I noticed your avatar has the same look/build as the Nav'i from the movie avatar. I think you may have legal recourse on Mr. Cameron...

-ssj

http://mimg.ugo.com/200812/8356/avat...ept-NOV-02.jpg

Re: Exploit question
 

Greetings from IRC. We wish to proclaim that our thuggery is predominately focused on each other in IRC. Only rarely does it spill over into these forums. This discussion was just too juicy to drop.

Also, a LOT of us on IRC play monkeys. I personally am in 3 MP games with monkeys atm, one each age. They rock. Just don't buy much PD.

Re: Exploit question
 

Boo hoo hoo clams have pearls :cry: .

Re: Exploit question
 

I would but,
1) I never blitzed before,
2) college apps. <_<
3) You would beat me like a red-headed stepchild no matter what nations we used. >_>

Re: Exploit question
 

At the risk of sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong - this explains so much! DotA has the absolute worst community I have ever experience in a MP computer game, and that's saying quite a bit. If you don't play your character the way the other players expect you to you'll generally be derided as a newb and looser in the most derisive pubescent terminology, most likely followed by a vote to kick you. Heaven forbid you pick a skill that 'everyone knows' is sub optimal, or try out a character you haven't played before in a random pickup game. The game was kind of fun, but I couldn't stand the community - even when you're winning its just no fun to have harpies abrasively second guessing you every time you make the slightest mistake. This explains a lot about your positions Kuritza, you come from a very different world with different expectations about gaming and appropriate behavior.

Re: Exploit question
 

I dislike DotA intensely. I prefer AoM, if I'm searching for an AoS; heck, I'd rather play Battleships.

Re: Exploit question
 

Oh god, yes.

Re: Exploit question
 

Title of thread should be renamed "DoTA and their thuggery players".

Re: Exploit question
 

that's when there was this kitty cat with lasers that lasers glow when raptors shrieking fish

Re: Exploit question
 

This motivational poster I stumbled across reminds me of this thread:

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/attac...1&d=1261706502

Re: Exploit question
 

Unfortunately, I'll have to agree. The game/scenario is fine though when played with a couple of friends.

</IRC Thuggism>

Re: Exploit question
 

There are very different communities even it Dota, Baalz. In some closed leagues, you get banned for flaming others IMMEDIATELY. But yes, there are expectations there. Nobody will say a word to you, other than 'respect', if you do well by playing your hero in a weird way, but if you start helping your enemies, you wont get a good feedback from your team for sure. If you start actively 'feeding', like helping others win if you know what I mean, you also get banned, without any flames or harsh words. And it keeps everyone happy, except these who would spoil the game by misbehaving in any way.
Oh, and you probably had such a bad impression because you played in publics. Just as I finally got fed up by open Dominions games, where every now and then somebody decides to backstab you, because somebody else is winning anyway, or even to help that guy win, or because you killed him in another game, etc.
Too bad there's no place to learn Dota other than in publics. Now thats sad indeed, publics are terrible in all regards, including the language used.

But that's off topic indeed. As for me being a troll - read what people started respondig to my initial post that gemgen-removing shouldnt have been made an integral part of CBM everyone plays now, or first comments to Clam Shortage for that matter, and tell me if its me who is trolling or posting disrespectful things. Same untolerant attitude, from everyone.
At least I have an excuse of leaving community soon anyway.

I would be glad to try a no-gemgens game, were it a separate mod. It was an easy thing to do, and I even suggested it back then. It kills some already weak nations, it buffs some already strong nations, but that can be fixed in further versions of CBM indeed, provided that QM wants it. I've got an impression he's fine with crappy Oceania, and everyone considers Bandar Log a fine nation with great military despite all statistical evidence, because they can still kill an opponent or two time after time.
Yet, now CBM just cuts off the strategies you guys dont like, and leaves no choice other that 'dont use CBM at all and try to find enough people for a vanilla game'. This point still stands true despite all your provocative claims about me.

Re: Exploit question
 

no gemgens was and is a separate mod.... for a couple months people downloaded it separately... it was just so insanely popular that the main popular download now happens to include it... it's extremely easy to set a game of gemgen included cbm up still ...

Re: Exploit question
 

[too much holiday cheer]
Meh, my own person experience was mostly in Demigod - which apparently drafted almost exactly the same community (and mirrored my experience when I tried DotA). I played very well, was in the top 10 players worldwide in a couple categories, but I kept getting idiots ragging me because I didn't play exactly how they expected. I played character X, and if I didn't max out power Y as they expected I could expect constant BS...right up until I dominated, and maybe if I was lucky got an apology for the asinine treatment I got for 90% of the game when my score tripled my nearest teammate. Heaven forbid I go with a build designed to help the team rather than rack up the kills, if I didn't have the highest score I was a noob looser despite the fact my team won handily (due to my support role). And God forbid I try something that didn't work out, if my team didn't win because I was playing the "healer" who didn't heal I was absolutely due for the most vitriolic rhetoric that the basement dwelling caste of our society could produce.

I can't address the assertion that there were different groups which I didn't participate, all I can say is that my experience (and apparently others posting to this thread) was that DotA players are a bunch of pimply faced kids who would rather yell at people than have a fun game.

My point is that the Dominions culture is quite different, and much more open to people playing stuff because it's fun or interesting rather than because it's the universally accepted "optimal" strategy. I don't want to get into a discussion about whether specifically my suggestions on strategies are good, but rather to point out that your position seems to be "that wouldn't work, that's not how most people would/should approach this problem and therefore you're a fool for not doing that." I think you could have a lot more fun playing the game with the attitude of "I'm gonna go with the monkeys and see what kind of damage I can do". [/too much holiday cheer]

Re: Exploit question
 

CBM 1.5 is still a perfectly playable version of the game, and it still has gemgens. Nothing preventing you from playing CBM without them if you don't want, other than not being able to find other players who are willing to play with gemgens, now that you don't have to have them. Most people seem quite happy to be rid of gem gens, but there are still enough people who are willing to play with them that it should be possible to get a game going. I am playing in such a game myself, that started after CBM 1.6 with 12 players in it. Of course, this has already been pointed out to you.

If you can find others who will play with gem gens, it shouldn't be a problem. If you can't find others who will play with gem gens, your argument basically becomes "I can't play the game the way I want to anymore because the rest of the community hates those settings. I hate QM, he's ruined the game for me by making it so much better for everyone else that they won't even contemplate playing vanilla anymore."



Also, IIRC CBM version 1.6 was a transitional version. QM didn't want to make too many more changes on top of the big clam removal change, and after it got some playtesting then he'd see about doing balance changes on nations that might be excessively hurt by their lack. Changes to make up for the lack of gem gens have never been out of the picture, they've just been waiting their turn. If I'm wrong someone can feel free to correct me on this, but that's the impression I had when QM was putting 1.6 together.

Re: Exploit question
 

Wow that's bogus.

Re: Exploit question
 

Yes it is different. You can notice how I joined this forum almost three years ago, but wasnt making such flamefests until now - because this forum is different.
And I never, ever said I only want to see 'optimal' strategies in Dominions. Hell, in all my games I was trying some fun crap - and it worked quite well. I only tried all-out clam-monkeys in Lapis after, like, three attempts to play Bandar Log differently. When I say that your tricks wont work, I mean that you wont win a game by relying on such things as your main and only strategy. But God forbid me to say anything bad to somebody who joins a game to try a markata-campaign for fun. I am playing a blood-clam-lamias-tarts LA Man now; do you think I dont like weird strategies?! Think again.
[Cough... Before anyone asks, yes I know these things are actually mainstream, but afaik not for LA Man. Cough.]

What I find a really, REALLY bad behaviour is deliberately disrupting game balance just because you see that you cant win anymore. Some player finds himself in a bad position, sees that nation X is on a winning spree and attacking it would be a suicide, and starts thwarting everyone who tried to fight that nation X.
For him, its reasonable because this way he can have some fun. But what about these he backstabs? They have invested lots of time in this game, half a year maybe; they were fighting a stronger foe - and they had a chance to win. SO much excitement. And then this dude backstabs them and ruins all - you cant both fight a winning nation AND that dude.
Wasted.
Nice? I think not.
I believe Archeolept was also complaining about these who join a game to help their friends win; like, casting Crumble on their own capitol with Victory Point to let that golem storm it faster.
I'd also include turtling/burning earth thing, but some might disagree.

I've seen such things again and again here, and eventually got tired of them. Thats why I mentioned closed DOTA leagues in the first place.
By the way, you have started that 'Good players pledge' thread, so you must have thought about such things yourself.

Re: Exploit question
 

And so the topic moves to ganging and kingmaking. Eventually it will cover all eventualities and the entire forum can b closed.

Re: Exploit question
 

Nah ganging is absolutely fine most of the time, dont twist my words. Except when it becomes kingmaking.

Re: Exploit question
 

I think this thread needs a poll. I'm ordering 'B': Scorched lands, 3 Ganks, and a stab in the back with an exploit, to go.

Re: Exploit question
 

I don't think that LA MAn is a weak nation, it's somewhere in the middle of the pack. Great troops, good combat mages and nice paths on them. Good forging options. You have it not so hard to fill their holes with a pretender. Ignoring their strengths and focusing on other things does not seem wise, of course diversification is required. I offered you and Marignon to swap nations for my Ermor many turns ago in Setsumi and none of you were interested :) Each one of you was stronger than me at that point and you wasted your chance.

Anyway, I really get a feeling that you are just continuing your speeches from Setsumi thread [everyone should read it, that topic is awesome :P]. You should really work on diplomacy, both in-game and on forums. You are doing everything to convince even more people to play gemgenless CBM and alienating yourself, by using not-so-true arguments. You are losing Setsumi because you could not do diplomacy and insulted many people that could have helped you against me otherwise. You provoked that treacherous backstab by insulting that player. You spent all mid-game trying to build your interesting strategies instead of building anti-Ermor alliance or trying to get a border with me at least. You waited for Marignon to do the job. If he had won, it'd be the same thing, but just about why no one wants to help to stop him. And I will remind you one thing - Ermor can clam too, it's not banned for them, really.

Re: Exploit question
 

I think you are simply lying, Zeldor.

First off, I didnt call LA Man weak, it was Micah and others. I also agree that its an average nations with its strengths. I absolutely love my troops, my mages and my scales, and its not like I sacrificed them to get all other stuff. LA Man is great.

Second, please point me - where did you offer swap nations?.. Perhaps I missed it.

Third, no we werent stronger each. You were dominating, its quite clear.
Fourth, I tried forging an alliance. Some said they just dont believe that Ermor is so strong, some said they are all for it and didnt do anything. Like SciencePro, for example. He was shouting OK!!! Lets gang Ermor now! And... he didnt do it.

Fifth, I started insulting him only AFTER he attacked me. If you dont remember the sequence, I'll remind you: after yet another outbreak of 'Ok, lets finish this game and declare Zeldor a winner' just as I was getting excited about our war that finally started, I wrote that the game is not over yet and we still have a good chance if Rlyeh and Utgard join me and Abyssia, even if they didnt help Marignon. Rlyeh even backstabbed Marignon, which was true.
Right after that Rlyeh said he will attack me instead, and I started calling him an idiot. This is not the first time I have this very situation; last time it was a no-diplo game. Ermor dominates the whole map, attacking people one by one, Rlyeh thwarts these who fight Ermor. Later he told us that he didnt understand how to play Rlyeh and knew he cant possibly fight Ermor (who can, in turn, easily go underwater), so he just ganged these who struggle. Great idea huh.

Six - I am not using not-so-true arguments. If you think I am, ok, thats your point of view and you are entitled to it. But I dont lie intentionally; perhaps I make mistakes but thats it.

Seven - even in Setsumi tread people stated WHY they were not going to attack Ermor despite my and Marignon's pleas. You didnt have to try hard convincing them not to gang on you, the winner: they were affraid they wont gain anything by attacking you, stuck in your neverending hordes. Thats one of Ermor's strength indeed, nobody wants to fight it.

Eight. I spent my mid-game fighting first Pangaea, then Abyssia, then Caelum - trying to get to you. I just couldnt attack you until recently (though I offered some Golem support to Caelum and Utgard in case they attack you). Dont say if you dont know. I already stated that I always try to fight somebody, otherwise I feel like I stale.

Nine. I didnt wait for Marignon to do the job, stop the BS please. I didnt have my scouts there, so I couldnt cloud-trapeze, and from my previous experience I know that Ossa rarely responds to PMs so its kinda hard to cooperate with him.

Ten. Yes I know that you clam. What next? I can compare your Ermor and WL's. Were you WL, I'd give up immediately, he is really good. But against you, I can struggle for a while. I think I will give up when Lapis ends - to stop bothering you guys on these forums and stop playing this game faster. Until then, please forgive me if I linger here a bit.

Eleven. I dont care if I alienate myself here. I am fed up and going to leave. Fed up by clueless people who ruin games, fed up by your mix of 'I am so weak' lies and 'I am undefeatable' brags, by banning of gemgens etc.



... ok, you know what? Grats, you've got on my nerves. If you REALLY want to win more than you want to play, post in the topic AGAIN that you want to be declared a winner. I wont object. Others lost hope long ago, so it will be over.

Re: Exploit question
 

I'm pretty bad at acrronyms. At first I was thinking DotA must be some Department of Transportation role playing game (line those cones up for extra skilz, my flagman can stop a truck... how 'bout yours?). Obviously I don't get out much.
-ssj

Re: Exploit question
 

Keep the Setsumi BS in the Setsumi thread. Oh wait I'm 17 pages too late.

Re: Exploit question
 

Since this is quite the popular topic, how about having two downloads of the CBM mods? One without gemgen, and one with for those idiots like me who can't figure out how to enable gemgenning in two minutes.

Now I am not as experienced as many players out there, I would imagine that gemgenning would not be that big of a deal on a smaller map with fewer players, am I wrong in assuming this?

Re: Exploit question
 

I think that's a reasonable request to be made in the CBM thread =) (Not this one hehe)

Re: Exploit question
 

Legendary thread. It summoned me from the nether plane.

I think Bandar Log should be allowed to make clams and copy Bogus orders, or it should be considered to allow retreating monkey mages to use the old unerfed globals ! (this or give them a King Kong summon)

It's time to take appropriate measures to fix the markata PD. ;)

Re: Exploit question
 

The real question here is whether the method for catching Norfleet was right or wrong.

Re: Exploit question
 

Surely the question is whether Norfleet was right or wrong?