Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Sorry, but no.

Shishi have three slots for a reason. One for luck, one for girdle of might, one for ring of cold resistance. With a hammer, its still very, very cheap for a cloud trapezing thug. Cheaper than a bane lord with sword and shield, by the way.

And such shishi has both higher survivability because of mirror image/luck, mistform and air shield (against aforementioned crossbowmen), and it rips bane lord with frostbrand/shield to shreds. I have checked it, out of curiosity. Furthermore, shishi can cloud trapeze to catch the bane lord.
That was one of my concerns, actually. Shishi make bane lords obsolete.

P.S.
Forgot to mention - it was a male shishi, without "smite evil" effect.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Noobliss you make some good points, but I do not entirely agree. The whole point is to provide some diversity/alternatives for nations that do not have death/blood, and provide some alternatives once the Elemental Royalty have been summoned. The Shishi is conj6, why should it be weaker than the bane lord? Why should the bane lord be used as the measuring stick at all? It is more valid to compare the Shishi to the AQ.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Air magic has some of the strongest evocations, thus its summons were weaker. But even if we are to buff them, why would a conjuration 6 summon for mere 15 gems be so much better than a bane lord?
Give air nations a summon that is better than death/blood summons, and what do death/blood nations have for them? :) I just think this alternative is too strong. I am going to play a game with this mod now, as a death nation. And I am fully going to take air for my pretender, and pray for air sites. Because until I can get tartarians, death doesnt even come close to the Shishis.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Again, you make some good points. The quesion is (and I'm saying I agree entirely yet ;)) what do you suggest shoud be the proper power level and/or gem cost?

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

40 hp, 40 gems IMHO.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

So tartarians should cost 100+ gems then? And banelords should cost 45? Okay :D

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

40 for pair. It's 20 for 1.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

This isn't really a problem. They are higher research level and more expensive. If they aren't at least as good as banelords, then nobody would bother using them.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Makes sense.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

2 Rdonj:
I stated my opinion that Shishi are too strong compared to current summons, particularily making mid-game death and blood summons obsolete. How does it mean that existing summons have to be made more expensive? I dont understand.

2 Graeme Dice:

>> This isn't really a problem. They are higher research level and more expensive. If >> they aren't at least as good as banelords, then nobody would bother using them.

Eh? They are just one level higher, and they are actually cheaper. Please consider that bane lords need further equipment to solo anything, while shishi need little to none. They arent 'at least as good as banelords' now, they outshine them without even trying.

.... Ok, maybe I just dont know everything about MP. Is there any other summon for 25 gems (including item cost) who can cloud trapeze and solo 50+ heavy cavalry or easily annihilate equipped undead/demonic thugs?

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

I was just replying to Dimaz

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

@ Noobliss: No, your questions are valid. However, I think one also has to consider that you need 4A to summon the shishi, and air, unlike ofther paths, has no buffs tha can get you from lv3 to lv4.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

The banelord you described is outfitted to kill province defense and troops without mage support. He shouldn't expect to be able to survive against anything that's designed to kill tough targets. And really, nations like Caelum need something to do against cold and lightning immune thugs, and _something_ to spend air gems on that's worthwhile.

Killing 50 unsupported heavy cavalry is doable by just about any worthwhile thug chassis for similar or less cost than the Shishi you've outlined. A Skratti or Vanjarl for example. Death cannot be the only path that has useful summoned commanders, or else everybody needs to use death magic. This means that it is going to be a less powerful path, but that really seems to be the point of this mod - to bring the elemental paths into better balance.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Skratti and Vanjarl arent summoned. They are national commanders, who can kill decent armies with equipment. Please, name a summoned thug who can do the same for ~25 gems, including item cost.

Now, _something_ for Caelum doesnt have to be _that_ powerful. By the way, please tell me how would you outfit a banelord to fight Shishi. Because Shishi, you see, can kill both banelord and mortal armies without changing gear. As a harder task, please try to outfit a Raksharaja or Dakini to fight Shishi. :)

Death only has ony really really great SC chassis, afaik, and that's tartarians. So I kinda agree that its a good idea to give other endgame chassises. But Shishi isnt an endgame summon, its a mid-game summon. And Death has nothing comparable, not even remotely, because Bane lords will be eaten by Shishis. Literally.

Ah anyway. I can adjust to this mod, not a problem - taking a God with A4 is ok. Just... take a look at them, how they perform in the games to come. I have a feeling Shishi will be a wunderwaffe; employ them or lose to them.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Well if you are right, then clearly it would have to be changed. But so far noone else has reacted in that way to them, and I have heard no reports of them being successfully used in any of the MP games using this mod (and some reports of them being used unsuccessfully). A number of very experienced players seem content with their balance - I think I am happy to see how they get on for a bit. They are of course meant to be effective rather than mediocre things. I also always think that dom3 is full of "overpowered" things that balance out since there are so many of them. Anyway, I will keep an eye on future reactions to them.

Sorry not to write more, I'm using my phone.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

I wouldn't counter Shishi with thugs. At MR 16 I'd blast them with mindhunts (they'd die pretty easily to pen+5 mindhunts, even with an AMA). And I'd use battlefield magic to kill them.

MR 16 is pretty weak sauce for a thug, so as long as you can make penetration boosters, I'd be tossing the following at them: Soul Slay, Enslave Mind, Charm, Control, Disintegrate, Blindness, Paralyze.

Not MR dependent:
You can tie them down with prison of fire, tangle vines, vine arrow, earth meld. You can sleep cloud them or use rigor mortis to make them rack up fatigue. You can blast them with evocations (banefire, magma eruption, gift of the heavens). You can cut their effectiveness in half with darkness. You can Drain Life them. I could probably go on - that's just off the top of my head.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Why would you try to use the specific things Shishi counter best, which is undead and demons to fight them? Use something that isn't that. Use actual armies, which have magic support from multiple commanders, and not raiding parties, which don't.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Hmm, I forgot femaile shishi's bite deals extra damage to both undeads and demons:(.

I agree mind hunt may be the best way to deal with a shishi. But I think anti-thug thugs can be effective too. Considering its low damage output per hit(20, or 23 with gridle of might) and 16 MR, anyone with decent armor and a eye shield can blind it at turn 1 or 2, or you can just kill it with a troll king wielding moon blade. Shishis can neither fly nor cast returning as golems so it's not so hard to catch them.

@llamabeast: Unfortunately I omited the 2-headed forms yesterday and it seems the #firstshape bug applies to #2959 too. Anyway I have checked all Zmeys' code again and I'm pretty sure there is no other bug within it...

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

I'll be trying out shishis in MP in a few turns, I'm very curious about them. It's a super cool idea.

I wouldn't worry that it should make Bane lords obselete. It's a totally different kind of summon. And it's not like everyone will have A4 anyway. If it is too powerful is another thing, but I'm not convinced about that.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Well, Shishi effectively removes mid-game thugging with solo Raksharajas/Dakinis as a strategy (if available, of course). For lg Raksharajas have too few HP anyway and can be killed in many ways, but in mg trapezing solo-demon killers are their doom.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

BTW limiting Lanka is not necessarily the bad thing as it's powerful enough; however there should be some counters to it available. My 40g/40hp idea is to make them actually killable by trapezing LfL Dakinis or with less Leech casts as melee against them is suicide.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Only against nations with air researching conjuration. There will be many natons that will not have shishis. Surely no strategy should be of universal use? Swarms of recruitable thugs will always be useful midgame, shishis or not. And 30 air gems isn't peanuts, air focused nations always have to few air gems. I see your point but I don't think it will stand true to testing.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Shishi can't fly so some PD can make it busy when you are casting spells like hand of death, life for life etc. Considering your opponent need 30A to get a single demon killer and air gems are much more valuable than blood slaves, perhaps it's not so bad...

Edit: And if you expected to meet shishis, just sneak some sandhyabalas into the province with Raksharajas/Dakinis. They will eat shishis for breakfast with their moon blade.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

I'm gutted. Tried a grendelkin to see him die because he moved like a snail, never managed to reach the opponent. Ok, this was underwater, but still. Total waste of gems. Although he was listed at AP2/6, he never moved more than 2 paces on the grid at any time. So... died of turn-limit. I don't know if it's jsut me being unable to fight underwater. Still, a 3/8 bane lord in the same situation moved 4 squares per turn on the grid, so I'd expect at least 3 moves. I have no idea how water movement is computed, though, but as it is, Grendelkin is worthless underwater, which I think is unthematic..

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

>> Considering your opponent need 30A to get a single demon killer and air gems are much more valuable than blood slaves, perhaps it's not so bad..

30A fetch you TWO demon killers, who are also cloud-trapezing raiders in their own right, who dont really need much equipment to be effective, and are a counter to other raiders.
As for assassins with moonblades against the Shishi... did you try it? :) I think this assassin will die in one round.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

I think you confused sandhyabala and samanishada. You can summon 3 sandhyabalas with 20 blood slaves. They have 30 hp, 16 att and 56 damage per hit against magic beings.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

About Shishi: maybe the problem is Prot 20? ;)

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

I did a little bit of testing of the Shishi, and think they do seem a little bit OP for just 30A gems a pair. Not massively OP by any means, but maybe just enough so that it can be noticed :) Since a magic phase raiding thug that's good to go out of the box for 15A seems a little bit cheap to me. Especially as other good magic phase raiders in the game need a bit more investment (even Sidhe Lords tend to need at least a 10gem shield and 5gem weapon. And a good bless as well to raid effectively). Not even Golems (the other general go-to magic phase raider) can raid without equipment. And they cost 30 Astral.

I think either the cost should be upped to 40A for the pair (as others have suggested), or de-buff them a bit. Perhaps remove the quickness (goes against the description though), or just knock a few points off protection (3-5). Again as some have suggested.

Or, maybe think about removing the magic paths altogether and reducing the cost to 20A for the pair. Think they'd still have a use at that price without the magic, as they can still border raid with Lychan amulet and Girdle. Plus still be a great help taking out Thugs or low end SC's (and bonus v evil) due to the six attacks.

For me, the main issue with them right now is that they are good to go out of the box, and you don't have the logistical hassle of needing to change equipment depending on whether you are raiding or taking down Thugs/SC's. As the Shishi's are good to go against either at any time. Which is not the case for most other thugs in the game, as they usually need to be specially equipped depending on what they are going up against.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

For 30a I would hope it would outperform an EK in combat. As it is, an ungeared EK is probably only slightly worse. Give the EK a 3a+3e gem armor (silver hauberk) and the EK is better. And he scales up better because he has full gear slots.

I, for one, think 30a is worth more than 400g + 6 gems. ymmv. Now, you do get 2 shishi, but you're going to need AMAs for both and probably other gear, they can't be blessed, etc... The EK is going to need half the miscellaneous gear, and doesn't really need any other gear improvements for basic raiding purposes (needs a weapon upgrade for anti-thug duties).

(Note that the shishi pairs aren't each worth 15 gems. The one with the anti-UD attacks is clearly better).

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

The Eagle King is not a very good example IMO, as Eagle Kings are one of the best recruitable commanders in the game. It's the same as saying you expect a 30/40 gem mid-game summon to be better than a Nief Jarl or Ashdod Adon etc. And Eagle Kings are almost certain to need a shield for raiding.

So I for one would be mortified if a mid-game summon that cost just 15 gems (2 for 30 in the Shishi case) could give you a unit that is as good, or nearly as good, as the best nation specific capital only commanders. Regardless of whether the summoned creature needed more equipment or not.


Maybe a universal solution then is to make Eagle Kings (and the cap only commanders of all nations) into a general summon so that every nation can share in the wealth :D

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

See, I see national commanders that strictly dominate just about any summons up until tartarians or elemental royalty to be a serious balance problem, because it means you can get something better for gold than other nations can get with gems.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

For me it depends entirely on the nation. As nations such as EA Caelum or EA Atlantis for example, only has its great capital only commanders, the rest of the nations arsenal is pretty much sub-par and forgettable. Or indeed laughable.

So if you allow any other nation in the game to simply by-pass/replicate these national uber cap commander advantages via (too) cheaply priced summons. (especially if they're early/mid game summons. Say levels 4-6) Then at least IMO, you may well as a consequence be weakening several nations by taking away their only real advantage over other nations. While at the same time those 'other nations' may easily still get to keep all their trump cards that can't be replicated easily. Or even replicated at all. Uber bless units, blood access, high pathed Death/Astral mages etc.

If you're looking for more balance between nations, then how about modding a spell that summons 10 top rate scared units for 10 gems of any type, so as to counter the likes of Mictlan and Lanka etc. Or 10 sacred giants for 10 gems. And while you're at it, easy access to blood hunters at Conj1 from any magic path :)


I often think the quest to find perfect balance between all nations is a foolish one, as there are just too many nations and too many possible combinations in the game. This is not a game like Dune 2 with just 3 nations. So as long as mods like CBM continue to attempt to fix broken things (like never used summons, nerf obviously OP nations like Hinnom, help obviously UP nations like EA/MA Agartha etc), then I think it's doing a great job. But if it goes too far down the line of attempting to balance all nations by making sudden substantial changes to the game, then I think it might have taken too big a step in the wrong direction. Everyone has their own opinion on this of course :)

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Considering the relative availability of gems and gold under default settings, I'd expect a 400-500 gold commander should be evenly matched by about a 10 gem summon for proper balance.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Ten gems being equivalent to 500 gold commanders would mean a repricing of all existing summons though, which would majorly effect balance and game play, for good or ill.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Well, standard price in MP is 20-30 gold per gem, if there are any trades happening.

Shishis should be mobile, so they need A2. They are not so great really. Their attacks are good only against undead and demons really. And how many thugs like that do you have? Who except Lanka? Or some blood summons, which are probably way underpriced [really, Dakini for 55B? if we want to make Shishis more expensive, Dakinis should cost 100B or more]. Currently Shishi cannot even touch properly geared and scripted thug [mistform + mirror image + ethereality + luck + other staff]. They cannot even reliably get through fear+awe and many many other stuff. They need gear to survive frost brand. And they have not many means to survive anyt other thug gear. And they cannot take hits well. And they are totally useless against normal armies.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Shishi cannot touch a properly geared thug? Zeldor, I understand that I dont know much about all this stuff etc, but when I tried equipping Dakinis and Raksharajas, they were almost insta-killed by the Shishi. Actually, nearly all mid-game summoned thugs I could think about were helpless against Shishi.

Could you please specify, what items do Raksharajas and Dakini need to kill a semi-naked Shishi?

Also, Shishi have morale 30. I guess you didnt give a proper thought to your remark about them not being able to hit awe/fear protected thugs, did you. Same goes for etherealty, as all 6 attacks are magical. Or did Llama change Shishi somehow, buffing them in the last version of this mod?

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Yes, actually he did. Read the first post. They didn't used to have magical attacks for one thing.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Another possibility for Shshs fix would be to give them Encumbrance 1-2 (as many other magic beings, including elemental Royalty) instead of 0.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

All elemental kings\queens have enc 0?

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

They already have enc. 1, at least in the version I've downloaded. It's not a solution because simple girdle of might gives them enough reinvigoration while buffing their damage at the same time. With 3 misc slots, girdle of might is a no-brainer for Shishi. (Against medium amounts of PD or single thugs, they dont even need it because they are damn fast killers).
To be honest, I'm not sure they actually 'need' quickness or Air magic. Did Llama intend to create a summon that will automatically kill all other mid-game thugs via cloud trapezing, or just something reasonably good for 15 air gems?

My idea is to strip them of their commander status, maybe giving them flight to compensate. And make them get Air 2 after player casts Gift of reason on them, a-la tartarians.
Or just strip them of magic and give them flight instead.
Or strip them of quickness, since all their attacks are magical now.

A good summon doesn't have to be insanely good. :)

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Shishi's do currently have an encumbrance of 1. (unless my version of the mod got corrupted during download)


Edit: Ninjad by the NooBliss :)

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Sorry, can only post briefly, since at work. But a correction: Shishis have not changed since the original version, except for gaining +1 to attack (as in the first post). Version 1.01 did show that Shishis had gained magic attacks, since I thought I had missed out the magicness in the original version, but in fact I hadn't and so no change was made.

Also, as Calahan says, they have enc 1.

Zeldor's argument is hard to follow (although I was hoping he was right), since as NooBliss points out Shishis are immune to Fear, Awe and Ethereality, and cancel Mistform in one hit (and always did). Mirror image and luck are of course effective against them.

It remains the case that Shishis can very easily be killed, by e.g. the many methods that Squirreloid pointed out. However, those methods apply to most thugs; I think a little more thought is needed to work out whether the Shishis are out of line. I didn't intend to create an overpowered monster, no.

One tempting option is to remove the A2 and give them #onebattlespell Mistform. This will actually slightly improve them in battle (no fatigue from casting Mistform) but will remove the Cloud Trapeze option. I am not particularly wedded to the idea of them being able to Cloud Trapeze, although it is quite thematic.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Don't remove cloud trapeze, it's the whole point of Shishis - to be able to counter enemy thugs. Even if they are not reliable at that.

In Lunar Sea male shishi is bugges, so only one attack, so almost useless in counter-raiding.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

The English language is great on times, such as when two words written in the wrong order can completely reverse the meaning of a sentence ;)


@ llama - I'd personally go for either removing the magic paths on the Shishi as you say (flying or auto Mistform are both fine as well. Flying would be my preference I think, though unthematic maybe? re: "runs like the wind"). Or keep the A2 and nerf them slightly. Don't think the latter will take much personally, as just dropping the quickness (for example) would do the job.

Also, doubt Mirror Image would last long as a defence against Shishi's, as with six attacks per round one is bound to hit home in the first few rounds of battle. And their effective attack of 20 ensures a high defence won't help much in keeping the mirror image up either.

This quickness is a large part of the problem for me, as 6 magic attacks at a value of 20 per round is just too much in my books (which will become 21 after the 1st fight). Strength+Damage is 20 as well (23 with Girdle), which is not the biggest total ever, but with so many hits being scored quite a few will count when factoring in the DRN. Plus x2 against evil things makes it 40 (46 with Girdle), giving easy potential damage of well over 100 per round, and that's probably without needing good rolls or poor protection. That's not just a counter to demons, that an outright massacre with that damage output. All for just 15 Air gems!

If dropping the quickness is too unthematic, then maybe drop the attack value a lot (at least 6+). As then you might be forced to kit Shishi's out especially to fight Thugs/SC's with attack boosting items, rather than being able to give them the same equally as effective Girdle+AMA for every single situation they find themselves in. Giving players some actual strategic decisions to make about equipping commanders is always a good thing IMO.


@ Zeldor - Sounds like you've been MP testing some random form of Shishi that got neutered at the vets :)

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

I agree. Another option, if you want to keep the quickness, would be to combine a drop in attack value with only giving them one claw attack for a total of 4 attacks/round.

Definitely. Generally speaking, I think units that have high HP/strength should not have great attack/defense scores and vice versa. It's strange to be defending tarts but it's worth noting that they and most of the elemental royalty don't have high attack scores. So I was happy to see the drop in attack scores for Grendelkin and Ember Lords (though I think the Ember Lord needs a further decrease).

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Especially as most normal monsters have just 1 claw attack regardless (tigers, lions, etc.). 2 claws are usually domain of things considered unusually quick or skilled (some higher demons mostly iirc). So these 2 claws should replace quickness, not be combined with it. Or - quickness & 1 claw attack as base...

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Has anyone really used Shishis though? It's very situational summon. I don't think it's OP. It may be good, but only against undead and demon thugs, which are not so common really. Has anyone used Shishi against smth normal? Werewolf thugs? Ri's? Sidhe Lords? I'm really curious.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Siddhe Lords with mirror image should make shishis pretty sad. Hitting near 30 defense isn't too hard, and once you stack mirror image on that even 6 attacks isn't going to be a sure thing.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Fair question. I'll run some tests later. My guess is that the glamour thugs' best bet is an eye shield (have the Shishi's flurry of attacks work against it) combined with bumping up protection as high as possible.

I actually think a Skratti will defeat the Shishi, maybe even easily. Skratti have the HP to weather some damage and can dish out a lot of it themselves.

Re: Endgame Diversity Mod - Lategame summons, released at last!
 

Anyone noticed rocs have 175% SR? It seems a bug because #coldres replace the base creature's CR as intended but #shockres stack with the base creature's SR. Another issue is rocs inherit #iceprot 1 from storm guard, so they are less effective in hot provinces.

IMO the new zmey is somewhat overpowered. With 18 att, 28 str and 7 attacks BEFORE quickened, it can kill almost anything w/o ethereal in 1 round(mistform and mirror image will be negated by fire breath). 3 forms make it (partly)immune to soul slay, GfH and other save or die spells. And don't like shishis, it's nether magicbeing nor undead/demon so can't be countered by special weapons, 260 hp in total and 22 prot make it extremely hard to kill. I prefer to bring it back to previous stat but increase its HP and make fire breath its primary weapon. In my test, 3 bites can clear a square most of the time so other weapons will not get used. Swaping the order of fire breath and bites will increase its effeciency vs armies dramatically.