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Re: MBT's
Thailand apparently has chosen to buy 200 Ukrainian OPLOT tanks according to the following newspapers to replace it's current fleet of M41A3 tanks. Many tanks were considered such as the K-1 (The preferred front runner by the Thai Army.), T-90S and LEOPARD 2A4. These tanks would supplement the existing M60A3 tanks which might see some further modifications themselves, though those sources aren't solid. I believe this would the first export customer for the OPLOT. No dates available at this time, so I'll have to hold off on submitting the tank for the game, and also there is the question of will the military force the issue of it's apparent preferred choice the K-1+ as this has the 120mm in keeping with the other tanks above. This has also lead me to check Thailand's game status for receipt of the CEASAR SPA (Ordered in 2006 as first export customer, with order complete in 2010.) and BTR-3E3 APC (Delivered starting last Sep. 2010.) Still no press release from the manufacturer either of the OPLOT sale.
http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/...plot-mbts.html http://www.kyivpost.com/news/nation/detail/101075/ http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/loca...soldiers-riled http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnal...lot-tanks.aspx http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/index.php THIS REQUIRES CLOSE FOLLOW UP!! :capt: Again these are notes to self. Regards, Pat |
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The apc should read BTR-3E1 sorry! Both CAESAR and the BTR-3E1 will be on the add list for Thailand.
Regards, Pat |
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..already done
Don |
Re: MBT's
Thanks, will remove from the list BTR-3E1 and CAESAR and post the info I have for both to appropriate threads. Holding OPLOT info until I get something with good dates on it. It's been a good year for Thailand and S.E. Asia in general game wise. Thanks again!
Regards, Pat |
Re: MBT's
Again cleaning the system to better see my refs for PP#1 2011/2012, Besides it's been a little quite around here.
1. A little more insight into the ARJUN MK I, note the "blueprint" drawing which is the first I've seen with pics galore!! http://www.armyrecognition.com/india...elligence.html 2. ARJUN MK II tanks have been sighted and we're on track! The first is an updated rendering and I believe it to be accurate. Reminds me of a LEO 2A6 K2 PANTHER. http://www.armyrecognition.com/june_...k_1006113.html http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...94&c=LAN&s=ASI 3. 120mm rounds getting smarter and smarter. http://www.defpro.com/news/details/25364/ Regards, Pat |
Re: MBT's
Re : ARJUN MK II
I've been burnt by drawings in the past so a photo is best but *if* that rendering is accurate it seems similar in many ways to the Japanese Type 10 but without the width restrictions Don |
Re: MBT's
Well maybe we just have a "confused" tank!?! I would think if they have a couple of these running around and are initially satisfied with it's performance we'll have pictures by the late Fall to show it off, just my opion, but we have time to get it right.
Regards, Pat |
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Ethiopia has purchased 200 T-72 tanks which will be a combination of the T-72AG/MP upgrades (See last refs.) from the Ukraine unfortunately I have no date information at present so therefore I will not submit the information on the current Patch Post in progress. It'll rest here until I have a date. These tanks are from Ukraine's stock as production of the OPLOT-M slowly grinds along. I'm trying to keep my refs safe, as I'm in the habit of maintaining them in my "Favorites". Don I hope this is not an inconvenience to refer you to a specific post for data when the relevant information becomes available. This tank has been referred to also as the T-72B and is capable of firing the ATGW weapon and is state of the art for a current T-72. Last two refs cover the FCS and Weapons.
http://defense-update.com/wp/20110610_ethiopia_t72.html http://www.armyrecognition.com/june_...n_1006111.html http://en.rian.ru/business/20110609/164533812.html http://allafrica.com/stories/201106120043.html http://www.ukrspecexport.com/index/c...armor/lang/eng http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t72ag.php http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t72mp.php http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t72msavan15.php http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t72m3.php These will be much better than their current T-72 tanks. Could these be Ukraine UNIT O34 T-72BV tanks that just came off the field but upgraded as the refs suggust? And does the SAVIN 15 FCS rate a higher VISION (Or TI/GSR.) then 30 based on the info provided above? Regards, Pat Follow up for delivery date to put in a Patch Post. :capt: |
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Couldn't sit on this potential deal it is both big in what is being offered and in the political fallout that might result if approved. As far as the licensed tanks from Spain are concerned I think they are capable of making the 2A6 but it just might be the 2A5, sorry just don't remember off hand. This is a hot topic right now, just providing a sample from the sites I use regularly.
http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/...02662631e870cf http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...86&c=MID&s=LAN http://defense-update.com/wp/2011070...di-arabia.html 2. Knew this was coming for a time and it's been mentioned in the refs I've provided for the ARJUN since the start. Now India has decided to proceed with it the T-72M1 upgrades despite how controversial it's been both inside and outside of military circles. I have no data as yet to what extent they'll be upgraded to yet. I'll await info from the "Broadsword" site as well. http://www.armyrecognition.com/july_...k_0107111.html 3. Peru going in another direction and apparently the road isn't leading to China. http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...rica&Itemid=58 4. Finally not a game factor but representative of the issues facing Asia. In this case a matter of "good will" from one of the poorest countries on the planet. http://www.armyrecognition.com/july_...a_0107113.html Regards, Pat |
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Alittle tank and ammo news.
1. The ARJUN MKII trials must be off to a good start, with only half the upgrades in place thus far in the prototypes, IMOD has gone gone ahead and ordered 248 ARJUN MKII tanks. I don't want to say I told you so...yes I do about a year ago. 500 tanks were needed to make the project viable financially though it was in doubt at the time due to pressures from the Army not to buy the the tank. They had no choice after the "duel in the desert" last summer when it ran circles around the newest T-90S tanks from Russia. The T-72's were withdrawn before the competition. http://www.army-technology.com/news/news123677.html 2. More on the German/Saudi LEOPARD 2A7+ tank deal. http://www.army-technology.com/news/news123424.html http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-Saudis-06993/ 3. Tank ammo gets more high tech one I addressed in the last Patch, the USA one is newer. First is from DID as well. http://www.imi-israel.com/home/doc.aspx?mCatID=67056 http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...9E4-AKE-06995/ Regards, Pat |
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1. Maybe India won't upgrade those T-72 tanks after all as noted here last week.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...63&c=FEA&s=SPE 2. This will be posted on the APC thread as well. Covered this once before, but K2 backed up to 2013, which I believe was addressed. Will check. http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...65&c=FEA&s=SPE 3. Again as above for posting. Not every one's interests necessarily cross over. http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...71&c=FEA&s=SPE Regards, Pat |
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Well it would seem I've come full circle back to my very first post on this thread but, instead of dealing with the full
tank (BLACK EAGLE & T-95) my concern and where I need YOUR help is for non-blog & non-wikipedia source information concerning Russia's "newest" ERA package which is just now starting to be applied to their T-90 tanks. Of this information I'm good with, that it was developed for BLACK EAGLE and to have replaced KONTAKT-5, one of the best ERA tiles out there, on the T-95 I'm there. However to ask Don to apply what little information I have that it's 30-50% (From above sources.) more effective then KONTAKT-5, well "I" can't find any real "technical" data for the RELIKT ERA tiles to submit that. At best I'll err on the conservative side of 10%-20% for submission. So for you Russian tank folks this is your opportunity. I need this info within the next 36 hours please as I'm quite frankly two months behind schedule from posting the first PP for 6.0, sorry! By way of update dropping avaition for the first PP. Had some Land Equip. issues come up over the last month or two so the focus will be there on PP #1 (Is anyone else getting the urge too...never mind!?!) and am re-verifying data entered already going back to April/May time-frame. Here's an interesting piece of info I came across, this Janes article really made the rounds on the blogs etc. and it's worth noting some of the comments. http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...to-Examination Again thanks in advance for any support here, this is really the last piece of the puzzle I need for PP...well I really don't want to say it...but now I gotta go!! Regards, Pat |
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In game terms Pat Kontac change probably makes little diffrence, might possibly want to increase the number by one for some units / facings but not worth worying about to much.
I do remember reading the original tests by Rheinmetal & their amazement at how good it was & sudden effort to produce a new gun & move ammo tech forward |
Re: MBT's
John good to hear from you, I just found it interesting that RELIKT is supposedly 3 to 5 times more effective than KONTAKT-5. Given that, it would seem a first, second or more "first" kill opportunity mathematically decreases significantly. The big difference with RELIKT over most other ERA packages is that it truly does give top turret protection much as the ERA package for the newer IDF MERKAVA 4 (And installed on older ones during Maint. Depot work.) and TDF M-60T. I am also assuming the software in the game accounts for the ERA getting blown off as well until you get to the point of steel after so many hits in the same area? Hope you found the article interesting as I found one or two others in my search that supported the same conclusions to similar degrees. Not to worry after I get cleaned up will be taking advantage of an empty house while CINCLANTHOME is camping with family and friends to finish up #1 for 2012.
This video is good in describing the various protection systems of the modern tank and it's from Russia with subtitles for those that need it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h4uUfYnXUw Also of note their are several videos out now to show the BLACK EAGLE being tested and the T-95 though still not fully in "focus" enough to give you an idea of it's appearance and some capability mostly that they did not go with the 152mm as you'll see on the BLACK EAGLE videos. Regards, Pat |
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While not an MBT, I wonder if any of your sources have more info on this Scimitar upgrade?
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/De...Operations.htm Thanks Will |
Re: MBT's
2 Attachment(s)
Will and other interested parties,
For the SCIMITAR this is as good as any place for it as I will not start a Recon Thread and wish someone would take up the UAV cause since there's been so MANY new UAV's out there now with many new users. I'm pontificating thus digressing-sorry!?! I will say upon further reading I will need to address this in my next Patch Post. We are looking at 1. RESET units. 2. Up armored/slat armor. 3. ERA. 4. Redesigned hull which equates to increased crew survival (Along w/1-3 of course.) 5. Increased performance I.E. speed and maneuverability etc. 6. Improved Thermal Sights (TI/GSR). 7. Date extension as required to 2020 (+ in real life if you read the refs carefully.) 8. And Marcello's and my favorite, for those who've followed along in the past, AIR CONDITIONING!!!! Anyway from my sources... http://www.armyrecognition.com/septe...s_1809113.html http://www.army-technology.com/news/news130269.html http://articles.janes.com/articles/J...d-Kingdom.html (John you need to get that fund raising campaign going!?!) http://www.military-today.com/apc/fv107_scimitar.htm (As noted before because they have good info, lead on new equipment and have great pictures to build off on, though sometimes slow on updating, but in this case it's to our advantage.) Pic: Attachment 11332 Attachment 11333 These will provide a useful comparison to the "new" SCIMITAR MKII. And there are some differences if you look carefully beyond the obvious slat armor. From a little extra research... http://www.baesystems.com/Newsroom/N...181594242.html http://rokuth.wordpress.com/2011/09/...-scimitar-mk2/ DON'T NORMALLY LIKE blog sites but, he provides some good videos as well. Also the first article/post was from a regular source of mine as well the "DID" site, Defence Industry...another excellent site that provides regular updates to their articles. So Will, I hope this helped? My case is presented here as well, so the Patch Post will be easier per agreement-thanks Don for that concession! And I'm off to bed!! Regards, Pat :capt: |
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Oh erm yes every time there is some money in the kitty it seems to develop its own cause & fritter away, still the drinks cabinet is looking well stocked.
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Re: MBT's
Pat,
Great stuff. I love this vehicle and often use it in ambush scenarios to shred the AFVs, being fast and much lower cost than the M2 or M3 Bradleys,and allows me to save the tanks and their precious ammo for other tanks. The vision upgrade was the improvement I was most concerned with, so naturally that part gave me the hardest time finding information. Thanks a lot, Will |
Re: MBT's
1 Attachment(s)
Well I was able to go back with the segments from the first Patch Post of 2011/2012 and word tech them and fix some errors, so these are all cleaner then the PP. I was in the mind set of just getting it done, and it showed in the MBT section where it shows I just dragged this out for three months on research, work and other issues. Of course there will be some news at the end but as most times for pics you'll have to go back to the Patch Post. Aviation heavy turned into Land heavy over the course and as such I'll still have a couple of these to present on PP Part II BEFORE the Aviation cycle. So...
This is the first Patch Post for the 2011/2012 campaign. Mostly I'll be revisiting a couple of items from the last campaign, but as such things tend to work out, in researching one topic it invariably leads down a different path or as I like to say "I'm going down the rabbit hole again." that starts right off with my first item. For those that recently started on the topic in the last couple of months, see how the issues with Turkeys LEOPARD 1 tanks lead to other issues. Again I respectfully request that all well intentioned inputs not be posted here, this is for Don, Andy and others who are directly involved with the patch to raise any issues with what I've submitted. I just don't have the time at present with especially work etc. to lose my focus and present the information I have to present and answer any questions from the "Bosses". As I've already indicated this will be aviation heavy just not much else going on out there and though some major deals are pending "supposedly" such as ARMA 6x6 which just this past week signed (OTAKAR) a second contract with another or same unknown country, the 200 OPLOT tank deal with Thailand and the Ethiopian 200 T-72 (AG) (What's with the Ukraine and the # 200 with these deals?) upgraded tank deal both with unknown transaction dates, I just can't in good conscience submit them yet. If no end date is given it will be DEC 2020. Post referrals are again within the topic thread unless noted otherwise. So let's get started by the threads: MBT’s 1. The matter of the Turkish LEOPARD tanks needs some updating as the record will show; this is to include a significant increase in service life, partially to allow for the M60T development program and just the need to keep and update their newer tanks to allow for the retirement of the former U.S. M48 series tanks they hold. But more importantly all three LEOPARD 1 series tanks bought by Turkey (As well as the LEO 2A4 tanks later.) would prove invaluable as test beds for the ALTAY indigenous tank program, specifically in regards to the ASALEN VOLCAN FCS. The LEOPARD 1 series would incorporate what is considered the MK I FCS w/2nd Gen TS which prompted my Patch Post TI/GSR ? in Posts #49 & #50. Note: The order of upgrades below is simply an educated guess based on the fact that it would make sense to upgrade the older tanks first and leaving the more capable tanks in the field as the upgrade progresses. All we have are the start and end dates of the upgrade from the Turkish government and other sources. The LEO 2A4 would constitute the further improvement of the VOLCON FCS to include the EAGLE EYE TS this would be the MK II system. These tanks would constitute the 1T and 2T sets. The ALTAY will incorporate the MK III system when it comes online. The ASALEN program started in 2002 and ended in 2009, so the end dates should be close based on the number of tanks upgraded, I'm allowing for production time as these are almost taken back to a RESET condition as extensive turret and rewiring work had to be done to include internal hull work as well for additional cooling and rewiring required by the updated systems as well. The previous follows the same logical conclusions as to the start dates when the 1T versions first became available. *There are some "rumors" that some armor work was done as well on the LEO 1 tanks but I can not support that, however the LEO 2A4 were supposeitly updated to the LEO 2A5 level by KMW before leaving Germany at Turkeys request, this is likely, however it's your call. All Turkish LEOPARD tanks came from German stock. C1. TURKEY/LEOPARD-1A3T1/UNIT 035/CHANGE/DATES to SEP 1982-DEC 2020/As noted above in Para. / Total ordered 77 MBT + 4 ARV. All operational units NOT converted to the LEOPARD-1T. C2. TURKEY/LEOPARD-1A1/UNIT 033/CHANGE/To LEOPARD-1A1A1/JUN 1991-JUN 2004/Use GERMAN UNIT 012/The 1A1A1 had a heavier armor package on it in particular around the turret. I can find no evidence that these tanks arrived in Turkey prior to 1990. However as with all the Turkish LEOPARD tanks they are still in service today and into the foreseeable future unless noted otherwise. Total ordered 80 MBT, All operational units CONVERTED to the LEOPARD-1T see A1. A1. ADD/TURKEY/LEOPARD-1A1A1-1T/JUN 2006-DEC 2020/USE Turkish UNIT 037 for TI/GSR, FC, RF, & STAB. This is to maintain continuity in the VOLKAN FCS MK I upgrade program & GERMAN UNIT 012. /These were the first to be upgraded with the VOLKAN FCS MK I. Only 171 LEOPARD I Series tanks were converted to this standard, see below as to why. Again only the LEOPARD-A1A1 and A1A4 made up the LEOPARD-1T A2. ADD/TURKEY/LEOPARD-1A4T1/JUN 1990-JUN 2007/USE German UNIT 023. /German unit 023 is the best match as the TI/GSR value matches the above unit (C1) to reflect the upgrade to the Carl Ziess EMES-12A3 FCS which Germany also put on their LEO 1A4 tanks. Total ordered 150 MBT. All converted to the LEOPARD-1T. C3. TURKEY/LEOPARD-1A3T2/UNIT 037/CHANGE/To LEOPARD-1A4-1T/JUN 2007-DEC 2020/USE German UNIT 023 for ARMOR and WEAPONS. / Note: As of 9/4/2011 I've come back to fix this section again, but as I noted above in error* and correctly below* (Back in June.) the armor levels were not updated for the LEOPARD-1T upgrade program as it only dealt with the addition of the VOLKAN FCS MK1. This situation there for doesn't allow for adding just a LEOPARD-1T because the two tanks used retained their original armor levels which is why A1 & C3 are the way they are to show the tank it was derived from and to identify it as the LEOPARD-1T by adding the -1T at the end. It was really the only practical way I could see to show the transition from origin to finished product. D1. TURKEY/LEOPARD-1A2/DELETE/Turkey did not buy this version of the LEOPARD. * I'm putting in a break here to remind everyone that these are "living" documents with information changing due to newer sources etc. becoming available. Here is an example of how this works, almost three weeks just on the above and the process to finish the LEOPARD issues below, this was brought up in a thread. So... The LEOPARD 1 tanks did not receive any armor upgrades during the 1T program it was simply for the VOLCAN MK I FCS. Also ref 1 is supported by pic (Poster.) as regards to the dates presented above. Am splitting the refs at this point to avoid confusion between the FCS marks for Turkey’s LEO tanks. http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product152.html Focus on Variant section A1 TO A14 and Turkey section near bottom. http://www.tanknutdave.com/component/content/article/75 See Turkey section at bottom. http://www.military-today.com/tanks/leopard.htm http://www.ssm.gov.tr/home/projects/...d1A1A1A4T.aspx From the Undersecretariat for Defense Industry, the office is responsible for procurement, R&D and the coordination of government. private and joint defense industry companies. http://www.aselsan.com.tr/urun.asp?urun_id=79&lang=en Aselsan is government owned. VOLKAN FCS MK I. Pic: Attachment 11336 Is posted here as a reference which I came across while researching the LEOPARD-2T. Also from the Undersecretariat for Defense Industry, responsible for procurement, R&D and the coordination of government. private and joint defense industry companies. This shows not only accurate dates (HIZMETE GIRIS TARIHI = SERVICE ARRIVAL DATE.) but also the unit designation within the Turkish military. Note the date of MAY 2010 Rev. 2. As you'll see the 2T below does not match the picture here. http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...59&c=EUR&s=LAN A3. ADD/TURKEY/LEOPARD-2A4/JAN 2006-DEC 2008/USE GERMAN UNIT 030/Turkey requested no mods be done by ether KMW or MAK in Germany. All these tanks would end up being RESET to the LEOPARD-2T standard as shown next. Relaying on the fact that the M-60T and LEOPARD-1T series were finishing completion of their programs, Turkey started to feed all 298 MBT ordered into the assembly line for upgrade. This is all ALTAY program driven. http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1645.html Lower left contract section. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-turkey-01473/ http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/Pic ref above. M1. TURKEY/LEOPARD-2A4T/UNIT 039/MODIFY/To LEOPARD-2T/Dates to JUN 2011-DEC 2020/Main Gun 120mm L44 to 120mm L55 with turret mounted RWS 12.7mm, or optional 7.62mm or 40mm AGL. /Armor as required/All TI/GSR & FCS info as required. /NEW ICON. / All 298 tanks were taken off the line to be RESET with many of the features that will be found on the ALTAY tank. The pictures speak for themselves especially the one showing the LEOPARD-2T along side a LEOPARD-2A4. We have seen how far a LEO 4can be upgraded just look to Canada with the LEOPARD-2A4M CAN and Chile with the LEOPARD-2A4CHL among others. Again this tank will incorporate the ASELAN VOLCAN MK II FCS. It needs to be remembered they are receiving some cooperation from Israel (M60T with KNIGHT III FCS as carried on late model MERK 3 and early MERK 4 tanks also with part of the current model MERK 4 armor package.), Germany in the LEOPARD support area and the technical licensing with S. Korea with the K-2. They have all the tools, money and technical support needed internally and externally to make things happen. Not "flag waving" here, as most know I've been following Turkey and a handful of other countries MBT development for quite sometime, if you will, because "that's where the action is" in new tank development. Except for the FCS (Might be better?) info, I would recommend the armor set at a level equal to the newest current German LEOPARD-2A6 UNIT 277 or 267 if splitting the difference, unless you can get something more out of the refs and pics I've submitted. This tank could be that good and it is the build from for the ALTAY using some of the armor tech for that MBT. http://www.aselsan.com.tr/urun.asp?urun_id=79&lang=en VOLKAN FCS MK II. http://www.aselsan.com.tr/urun.asp?urun_id=55&lang=en EAGLEEYE FCS. http://vimeo.com/23746043 I understand the connection limitations you had with your computer but this video plays clean and covers the LEOPARD-2T upgrade pretty well mixing real video of the tank with computer generated images. http://www.turkishjournal.net/index....d-2-tanks.html http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.p...nks-2011-05-06 http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/...106ee4ca41a52a http://www.shephard.co.uk/news/landw...solution/9013/ Pics: M2. CHILE//LEOPARD-2A5/UNIT 028/MODIFY/To LEOPARD-2A4CHL/Main Gun 120mm L44 to 120mm L55/Armor levels to the LEOPARD-2A6. German UNIT 037 would be a good fit, better then UNIT 035 that came off the line in 2008./These tanks were 2A4 tanks modified by KMW in Germany at Chiles request to the 2A6 level. See M1 lead in Para. http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1645.html Para. 6. http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/leo2.htm See Para. 5 & 11. Also supports M1. above. http://www.army-technology.com/projects/leopard/ http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...le-sold-04316/ http://www.deagel.com/Main-Battle-Ta...000451001.aspx http://www.leopard2.com/variants/ C4. NETHERLANDS/LEOPARD-2NLA6/UNIT 038/CHANGE/End Date MAY 2011./A victim of hard times, at the height of the Cold War the Dutch had almost 1,000 MBT's and what was left were 63 LEOPARD-2NLA6 tanks. The CV-90 will serve as the backbone of their "armor" with a heavy reliance on their AH's for anti-tank support. A proud tradition has passed from their armed services of almost 90 years with recent deployments to both Iraq and Afghanistan. Also they will be selling their COUGAR helos as well along with the LEOPARD tanks, how about it Canada, need more LEOPARDs? http://www.defensie.nl/english/lates...ds_with_a_bang http://www.defpro.com/news/details/24905/ http://www.army-technology.com/news/news120180.html http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...-up-tanks.html R1. INDIA/ARJUN/ARJUN+1/UNITS 020 & 021/REMINDER/CHANGE/HF HEAT value. /I can't seem to locate the Posts involved but what I believe what you considered was something between 82-87./To the poster who caught the error, my apologies for not remembering your "name" please feel free to remind me here when posted, it was a good catch that I missed as well. R2. NORTH KOREA/P'okpoong-Ho/UNIT 025/REMINDER/CHANGE/Main Gun to 115mm/Up armor to T-72 (?)/See MBT thread Posts...never mind Pages 10 - 15./I believe we did settle on the gun issue (Pg. 11 Post #108.) but based on the posts we had the discussion about why the extra 2m length (Pg.14 Post #139.) and extra set of road wheels. Your thinking and I agree based on "hints" in the refs suggest besides having a larger engine (Fact.) it was probably up armored as well. Your thinking was something in the line of a T-72 (Pg. 15 Post #144.) though the "Po" was derived from T-62M1 tank. Thanks again to Marcello for his inputs. On to something else this is giving me "day mares" before I go to bed for the "nightmares" within the hour, in fact I'm stopping here!?! News... 1. ARJUN MKII apparently will not be fielded until 2015 and it will be the most expensive tank in the world at close to 8 million US dollars making it more expensive than the ABRAMS (Which currently holds that title.) which is around 6.2 million a copy. Arjun MkII will be around ten tons heavier then the MKI (2.5 for the ERA pkg. alone.) http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/...ost-rs-37.html http://www.defpro.com/news/details/27433/ http://www.defpro.com/news/details/27210/ 2. Poland to offer the the urban combat PT-72U produced by BUMAR. http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...rope&Itemid=57 3. Iran getting set for the production of the ZULFIQAR-3. Also note the ZULFIQAR-2 are only test beds. I think this could be a game issue if that's the case. http://www.armyrecognition.com/septe...1_2209113.html 4. Thailands OPLOT deal with the UKRAINE moving forward as contract for the first tanks was signed almost two weeks ago. http://www.kyivpost.com/news/busines...detail/112098/ http://www.ukrainebusiness.com.ua/news/3727.html 5. Indoesia to upgrade it's AMX-13 tanks. http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...asia&Itemid=56 6. For this last, Russia is going on a massive spending spree to upgrade it's army this is to include armor in a major way. I'll start by saying the BLACK EAGLE (Post #1-#5.) is not dead...yet. A choice will be made ethier for it or the T-95 so that production can begin in 2014. Also the T-90 will be upgraded as well by the T-90M and T-90AM (Same tank?) which I still have to sort out as I'm finding info for both. The T-90M would fir the Posts #162 -#164. T-95/or T-99... http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20110910/166687063.html http://www.armyrecognition.com/septe...4_1009111.html http://www.army-technology.com/news/news129617.html T-90... http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...rope&Itemid=57 http://www.armyrecognition.com/russi..._pictures.html http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...asia&Itemid=56 http://www.army-technology.com/projects/t90/ Well that's it here! Time to hit the rack to avoid any "sea state" issues. Regards, Pat :capt: |
Re: MBT's
2 Attachment(s)
Well a little news and updates.
1. First up the Polish ANDERS, it has successfully been tested on another weapons system, the Belgian CT-CV 105mm cannon. So for those keeping score that's the Bushmaster 30mm, RUAG 120mm and now the CT-CV 105mm. I'm thinking a contract within the year, possibly the Netherlands after retiring their LEO's last May or to an Asian country. http://www.armyrecognition.com/septe...n_2309113.html Pic: Attachment 11349 2. The "new" Russian T-90S, I believe I've got it figured out that the T-90M will be the Russian version with the T-90AM the export version, as suspected in an earlier post (About 2 or 3 back, I think.), so here's latest the ref, it's the best look at the tank I've seen thus far. I believe I might submit this for the next Patch Post (#2). This also has the newer ERA package also discussed in this thread as will be used on the either the T-95 or T-99 "BLACK EAGLE" of which no decision has yet been announced on which [b]will[b] go into production. http://www.armyrecognition.com/octob...1_0210111.html Pic: Attachment 11350 3. I find the Greek M1A1 thread very interesting, but have not seen anything yet either to support it from my sources plus, DOD, DOA or Stars and Stripes. However I'll keep a watch out for it as well. This ref has been updated to reflect the current export deals such as 1. Saudi Arabia upgrades, 2. Egypt's additional tanks they are to get and 3. Iraq's final 126 tanks (Out of 140.)and 7 TRVs will be delivered by this December on time. Please note the "Operator" section upper left. Again this ref is updated. http://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams/ But if I may, why would they note Australia's M1A1 tanks under the DU Armor protection section? Did that question ever get resolved last year about this time dealing with that issue? Regards, Pat :capt: |
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Greece is not going to pay, it is not buying the M1A1s. The only thing to pay is any repairs and the shipping of the vehicles to Greece. It's not a new issue. It's a on going issue for months now and the url I linked to was just the latest.
Regarding the Australian M1A1's, I don't follow what they do so I can't comment on that. |
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Is this just wrong of me to put this article with accompanying video in this thread? Hard to say, but what the heck. Please read the article first, I've heard rumors of the incident and I think I might've posted something already about the IDF's new and classified ATGW which this was purported to be, whatever it was no one walked away from it.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/...li-hit-on.html When ready to watch the video do so in full screen to appreciate the effectiveness of the ATGW. For the crew a horrible way to go, at least we knew if it was our time it would be relatively quick under all that pressure. The beginning of THE ABYSS still makes me cringe at times. 2. The hidden Indian T-90S situation exposed, the real reasons why India has had production issues in making the T-90S. http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/...supply-of.html With Christmas around the corner how about some cheap armor as Europe is tighting the belt before you know we'll be back in the good old days of the Cold War as Russia continues double digit growth in defense spending of around 12% over the next three to four years. 3. Indonesia wants to buy German LEO 2A6 tanks. http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/...2766aa1f6885a0 4. Austrian armor fire sale and the end of the line for the SAURERS by 2014. http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...rope&Itemid=57 Regards, Pat |
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Read the comments on the blog :) Swedish ATGM test on a Centurion. |
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Fairly typical tank kill actually. wasn't even a catastrophic kill. I've seen plenty if Iraqi tanks with the turret laying 10m from the hull; and one T-62 where the turret had hit the ground gun barrel first and stuck - looked like a giant lolly stuck in the ground.
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In all likelyhood the existing force could absorb a great deal of spending with relatively few immediate and visible effects: nominal numbers of many weapons systems in particular are still going to decrease for a while as the retiring of older systems outpaces new production. |
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I always love the folks screaming about the defense budget here in the USA.
About 50% of it is pay and maintenance (food, housing, etc.) for the troops and can't be cut unless they cut the overall size of the armed forces. And we're currently involved in low intensity (at least to the folks not being shot at) wars which create additional "can't be cut" expenses. But let's not reality interfere with the rose-colored-glasses view of how things "should" be. |
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This is a continuation of Post #141 Item 1. concerning the difficulties India has run into in the transfer of technology and licensing issues in the building of the T-90S in India. Below is part two of the article posted focusing on the "bottom-line" effects on the issues noted above.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/...alts-t-90.html The next gives us a little more insight on not only the current status of the ARJUN MK II but it's capabilities as well, though a date change might be in order as well as adding ERA. Overall 93 modifications will be made over the existing ARJUN MK I to include ERA of a new type. These are "heavy" tanks in line with the ABRAMS, with both MK's coming in at over 60 tons or 20 tons heavier then the T-90S. Refs in order as published. http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/...nk-poised.html http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/...n-mark-ii.html http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/...rjun-tank.html http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/...ady-great.html As a reminder I'm not much for "Blogger" sites, however he writes for the well respected Business Standard covering both domestic and international defense matters and served as a Col. in the Indian Army, those are my standards. Also though to be honest I haven't dug into it hard, there seems to be no further updates on the Turkish ALTAY, South Korean K2 or Japanese TK-X/TYPE 10 (Pound for pound considered by many as the most advanced tank in the world.) tanks the only other NEW tanks in development. Regards, Pat |
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Pat..... as I have mentioned I am up to my ears in work so save me the read because you've obviously already done that and give me a HINT what you think a.....
"date change might be in order as well as adding ERA" ...means Don |
Re: MBT's
Not so much for you as me to follow up on, just didn't leave my normal to "Follow up..." note with the :capt: above the Regards like done in the past. Somebody last night :rolleyes: left his jacket in the car and Mother Nature got him wet, windy and cold within the first hour of being on post. Jacket did arrive later but too late to do much good the rest of the way. Like nukes never mess with Mother Nature!! Just wanted some tea and get under the covers until I got it into my head to post. Sorry for the clerical error.
Regards, Pat |
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No problem , all I was hoping for was it's a ahead of schedule or two years behind type of thing.
Don |
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Don,
Alright here's what I've got thus far on Indias ARJUN. Will add it to the top of the list as we discussed in our last couple of PM's concerning the OPLOT issue to finish the year with or start with for next year. It looks like the JAN 2012 date for UNIT 022 (MK II) came from Page #8, Post #75 Item #2, which is gone now because the BROADSWORD site was updated. The intro is still there but the IMOD article itself is what contained the 2012 date. However what I need to nail down now is whether a better date isn't JUN 2013 or JAN 2015 from newer updated articles. Though within our "swag" as discussed previously concerning date changes UNIT 021 (MK I+) w/LAHAT might benefit from a JAN 2010-Jun 2010 date change however, for sure the "Ceramic tile" ERA will need to be added for both units above and since we're on topic the Turkish M-60T also, though I know for sure it used the same "tile" ERA as the latest MERK IV though even some refs already posted thought it might be the same as used on the newer MERK4b (I don't see it.) which has a newer more effective variant on it. So the bottom line, carry on with yours, I'll stop with the Helos and get back to this and the other land vehicles as discussed and have it ready for late "production". The list can be taken ALA' CARTE as you see fit. Jets... will a be now a project definitly for next year. The bomber issue (And other types.) must be addressed with the pods now carried over the last handful of years as the target aquistion aspects cannot be ignored. And to keep my word that when I saw something break on this topic... http://www.dmilt.com/index.php?optio...rope&Itemid=57 Well like Elmer Fudd, I guess I'll be going down that "rabbit hole" again to hunt those "wascally wabbits"!?! Good Night! Regards, Pat |
All this is just "suppposed" pipe dreams if they have money thing.
Is getting boring, until it's actual purchashing of those things ,Show the proof or shut up! I mean i could claim I am an Iraqi bomber pilot,and have B-2 bomber with nukes ready,would you bealive it? ;) |
Re: MBT's
If the last was directed towards my views 1. Don't read them. 2. The bomber issue has been discussed going back now for 2 years at least with the person(s) responsible for making the decisions around here. I have been unable to to post them because priority is given to armor, arty, helos then aircraft since that's really game priority here, though I know all inputs are encouraged. 3. Those bombers have had this equipment for longer then when I first raised the question by years. 4. The economics are affecting the game, see the last patch post for the Dutch tank situation, the countries in the game already assigned the F-35 that might not not see them because of the clamour to get in these planes (And other equipment.) before they're even off the drawing board and the realities of the actual production cycle as driven in most cases as much by developmental issues as economic ones. And let's not forget the armor fire sale going on in Europe and trying to track where it's going, again, as noted above by example. My window for adding equipment as agreed upon is within a 2 year window of expected operational status based on refs as always provided. Like the CM arty issue a while back I guess I need to "provide a taste" of the refs sitting in my favorites so in a sense I'll have put up and now... well I'll leave that part to your imagination. And this on my workday "Friday" - thanks for that!
1. Look under features: http://www.af.mil/information/factsh...et.asp?fsID=83 2. Don't know if this can be game supported or not, but am following development. http://www.airforce-technology.com/news/news123198.html 3. Watch one of the videos to the right, one shows a cockpit display from 25NM out from the target yet it appears the pilot is on short approach to it. In the last note the table at bottom. http://www.lockheedmartin.com/produc...per/index.html http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...the-mark-0562/ http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...itions/atp.htm I can "put up" more if you want. By the way, though the shift in the USAF is towards the SNIPER the B-52 flies with the advanced LITENING Pod primarily. Oops one more, where do they all come from!?! :rolleyes: http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-Orders-06614/ Look at everyone who has them. Have to go to work, have a great weekend! Regards, Pat |
Re: MBT's
Re:MALD-J
The B-52's in the game already enjoy a subsantial EW bonus though not to the Level of the B-1 or B-2 Don |
Re: MBT's
If given the opportunity in the next 1 1/2 months I would like to put this issue to bed. Please refer to Post #158, if anyone has a legitimate source i.e. well respected major newspaper or military/defence websites showing that the Ukraine is going to or have shipped these tanks to Ethiopia please let me know in this thread. I will not entertain Wiki type or Blog site information. My hope is that something will or did pop up in Europe that I missed. Thank you in advance.
Regards, Pat |
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Quote:
Machine translation here: http://translate.google.com/translat....shtml&act=url |
Re: MBT's
dnmt,
Thank you but, I already have several refs dealing with the signing of the contracts which are included in the post already submitted. The piracy incident in Somalia occurred many years ago in the first shipment of T-72 tanks, but have nothing to do with the tanks in question now which are of a much more recent level of modification for the T-72. THANK YOU FOR YOUR EFFORTS THOUGH. Regards, Pat |
Ooooh Canada...! A little help with the words here please...anyway Canada continues to attempt to corner the market on the LEOs with a slight twist though. Also this answers the question as to what happened to most of the Swiss LEOs RHEINMETALL bought. A good read on Canada's recent move towards heavy armor and the LEO. Looks also like more LEO 2A4M CANs are finally going to get done from the former Dutch 2A4 tanks bought by Canada. We got these in just last year and it is one of the better 2A4 upgraded tanks out there and are battle tested as well.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...reports-canada Watch Asia for LEO developments along with parts of Africa. ;) Also in the house cleaning mode this came up a couple of months ago and it looks like the upgrades are good in the game but I believe Don needed a new icon and updated picture. Here's the article for those following the UK WARRIOR progress. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-Upgrade-05967/ RHIENMETALL DM-11 for ABRAMS. http://www.defpro.com/news/details/28611/ Regards, Pat |
Re: MBT's
You know who you are and this was the quickest way to answer, dinner in T(-)5mikes. Everyone this is good info.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ly-2011-06975/ Look to all the follow on articles. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...or-Iraq-05013/ Look at OCT 14/10 AND 26/09. All you seek is here. I know you look in best I can do on short notice hope this is useful to you and others. A bit of mystrey is always fun!?! :rolleyes: Regards, Pat |
Re: MBT's
Well if I were a betting man I'd say the F-35 has a better chance to get into the game now than the Indian FMBT. ALTAY and K2 should be fine especially in the case of the latter. ARJUN MKII as is the new Turkish LEO-2T, represent the final bridge to reach those goals for their respective countries. It does not however help the Indian cause that we're not likely to see the ARJUN MKII before JUN. 2013 or JAN. 2014 vice the current game start date as based on the best info we had at the time of submission. Delay the test bed you delay everything after it. So with all this in mind here's the latest on FMBT due in 2018 but NOW POSSIBLY 2020 OR OUT.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/...hers-over.html http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/...in-battle.html And maybe the civilians can do it better, a most unusual tank design contest. Maybe I'll give it a shot... http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2012/...challenge.html On the bright side it might be the first new tank for SPMBT BEYOND 2020 AND TO INFINITY!, yeah it is a rather long name, isn't it!?! :rolleyes: Regards, Pat |
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Try - To Infinity and Beyond :rolleyes:
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As always I bring them to their homes from the Patch Page Thread.
MBT… By time this gets posted; the following issues are being resolved for all OPLOT units including Thailand’s: 1) Will get the KBA-3 125mm vice the current 120mm L55 Sw01. 2) Thailand will receive the modified Ukrainian UNIT 063 OPLOT with the NOZH-2 ERA as carried on the OPLOT-M. 3) Thailand’s fielding date will be JAN 2013. 4) This completes the OPLOT package not all was passed via PM. 5) The refs. are for everyone else and is how I've always operated, it’s my standard, and lord knows I've harped about that enough in the forum. So below completes my entries for the 2011/2012 campaign, Patch Post #2... C4. UKRAINE/OPLOT (T-84)/UNIT 061/CHANGE/120mm L55 Sw01 to the 125mm KBA-3/ERA equal to value of UNIT 062/Start Date to JAN 2000./The only “OPLOT” tanks to carry the 120mm were produced as demonstrators for the Turkish MBT competition in 2000 though the actual tank was the export version better known as the YATAGAN (KERN2-120) which was designed to meet NATO standards. All OPLOT MBT’s have ERA installed on them. The OPLOT MBT was offered to Greece in 1998 and Malaysia in 2000 with both the YATAGAN and OPLOT offered. Greece went with the Leopard and Malaysia went with a heavily modified PT-91 TARWDY. The OPLOT entered service with the Ukrainian Army in 1999 according to the manufacturer. Seems to be a split with the 1999 date and when it was first seen in 2001 in a military parade in Kiev with the refs available. The Greek tender is well documented which would support the 1999 date. The armor of the OPLOT is multi-layered, with many surfaces having ceramic/steel/aluminum sandwich-type applique armor. A lesser form of this armor is also found on the turret roof and hull floor. The standard ERA is still the Kontakt-5-type ERA of the T-80UD, but the lugs allow for the mounting of virtually any ERA in the former Soviet/Warsaw Pact inventory, as well as allowing for new forms of ERA in the future. The hatches for the commander and gunner are much more armored, and have hydraulic assists to help the crew open and close the now-very heavy hatches. Like the T-80UD, the OPLOT uses both the Varta and Shtora-1 active protection systems, and have the same thermal and radar signature suppression design features. D3. UKRAINE/OPLOT (T-84)/UNIT O62/DELETE/This MBT does not fit with the refs provided above or below and is redundant to UNITS 061 & 063. C5. UKRAINE/OPLOT (T-84)/UNIT 063/CHANGE/120mm L55 Sw01 to the 125mm KBA-3/Start Date to JAN 2011/ERA to the level of UNIT 064/By 2010 the decision was made to significantly decrease production of the OPLOT in favor of the OPLOT-M. Further it was decided an easy and inexpensive method to provide an upgrade to the OPLOT was simply to add the NOZH-2 ERA which could be done in the maintenance depots thus not interfering with the OPLOT-M production which would not be fielded until JUN 2011. Click on first ref. upper left for further system info; note KBA-3 info provided in second ref. and finally evaluation info as described in C4 above. On the last scroll down about 1/2 way. http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t84.php http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t84armament.php http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/t84participation.php http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/T-80U.htm C6. UKRAINE/OPLOT-M/UNIT 064/CHANGE/120mm L55 Sw01 to the 125mm KBA-3/Increase EW to 5 or 6 VICE 2./The OPLOT-M is considered one of the best protected tanks in the world for the reasons below and should reflect that in the EW rating increase over the above current OPLOT units (EW 4) to which this tank is a much improved version of. The OPLOT-M has an actual ECM system as well as IFF and IRCM system based on their aircraft counterparts; these degrade radar users’ attempts at detection by one level and users of IR-guided weapons by two levels. The ERA of the OPLOT is the more advanced Nozh-2, which protects against both tandem HEAT warheads and provides some protection against AP and KE-type rounds. Machine gun ammunition is somewhat increased over the OPLOT. The OPLOT-M uses the 1200-horsepower turbocharged 6TD-2E, which gets better fuel mileage and emits a much less-obvious exhaust plume with the advantage that it’s faster. The OPLOT-M has a 10kW APU, versus the 8kW APU of the other models of the OPLOT. * NOTE the KT 12.7 12.7mmMG is a remote operated weapon on all OPLOT versions* http://www.morozov.com.ua/eng/body/oplot_mbt.php http://www.ukrspecexport.com/index/c...lang/eng/id/42 http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/T-80U.htm A4. THAILAND/ADD/JUN 2012(NOW JAN 2013)/OPLOT (T-84)/USE UKRAINE UNIT 063/Some refs point to the OPLOT-M as being the tank being bought by Thailand, if true I would think it to be a “dumbed” down version since the technology is new and probably proprietary. This is why I think Ukraine UNIT 063 will cover this situation with the side skirts added. Date chosen based on early production rate of ten units per year for OPLOT-M from manufacturer site. This seems reasonable based that the tank is in production as noted and the initial Thai order of 49 tanks is to be completed by DEC 2013. http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product4221.html See the following for further information; Post #151 Page 16, Post #169 NEWS Item #4 from MBT section of Patch Post #1 for 2011/2012 submitted in SEP last year. After my request in C6. from the Patch Page Thread above a little one on one from Don in Armored Vehicle EW 101: Originally Posted by FASTBOAT TOUGH .........The OPLOT-M is considered one of the best protected tanks in the world for the reasons below and should reflect that in the EW rating increase over the above current OPLOT units (EW 4) to which this tank is a much improved version of. Pat, you need to spend some time poking around MOBHack. For tanks there are 4 "EW" settings EW 1 & 2 = "CIWS" which is the closest and shortest abbreviation we could put in there to indicate active defence systems. EW 1 gives you one active defence measure, EW 2 gives you two. EW 3 & 4 = "VIRSS" which is the closest and shortest abbreviation we could put in there to indicate passive defense measures like "Visual and Infrared Screening Smoke" There is nothing above "EW"4 and 1 is not less than four, just different AND ( what follows seems to have confused people in the past so I'll explain it again ) it's a ONE EVENT DEAL so popping a VIRSS cloud ONLY AFFECTS THE INCOMING MISSILE that tripped that event. It does not linger like a normal smoke cloud and it does it that way because that's the only way we could find to bend this code to simulate this. Quote: If a vehicle has VIRSS and a ATGM is fired the game runs a routine to determine if the VIRSS was successful in diverting the missile or not for that , and only that, missile. The "smoke" is just an animation so you know that VIRSS has fired. So "VIRSS" in the game is a code routine the game runs when a vehicle equipped with "VIRSS" detects a ATGM launch. So "EW" 3 gets you one "VIRSS" shot and "EW"4 gets you 2 "EW" 1 gets you one Trophy / Arena type active defense against an incoming missile and "EW" 2 gets you two There is no EW 5 or 6 Don You can always learn something new around here, that's I keep coming for regular dose of...:rolleyes:, :mad:, :o, :shock:, :re:, :doh:, :banghead:, :fire:,:fight: but mostly for all the :cheers:,:party:,,:rock: and finally just to keep my :capt: on things. I really hate self inflicted wounds!?! Have a good night everyone! Regards, Pat |
Re: MBT's
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Re: MBT's
......see anything that indicates now many smoke rounds are fired to obscure the tank when SD are available??
Don |
Re: MBT's
I would think one is the answer. I give you a USA FM ref. again tables 19 and 21 are your focus. Note safety distances for accompanying infantry in combat at 50M and for training at 100M. Browsing the web and going back to the earliest and therefore minimum coverage we're looking at about 30M to ~75 DEPENDENT on grenade type used. Most modern IR/LASER disruption types are ~50M+ as the tables above will indicate as they would release solid and chemical materials that might injure supporting troops again as noted above.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...3-50/appc2.HTM Regards, Pat |
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Quote:
But going off the photos I'd have to say one as well. |
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Quote:
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/2...do620if333.jpg Here is one for example. In regards to the specific versions. T-72M1 has smoke discharges by default.The T-72M is more murky as some do not have them and some apparently do (if they are in fact M), that's the sort of things manufacturers love to tinker with so it is hard to be 100%sure. Unfortunately I am not familiar with the operation of the Type 902 series of smoke dischargers used on T-72s, so I have no idea if there are multiple firing options, but salvo fire is the norm with such systems. Here is for example a description of the M250 smoke grenade launcher (mounted on the Abrams) operations, as can be found here. Quote:
|
Re: MBT's
I brought it up mostly because in the current version of the Iraq OOB none of the T-72 variants have smoke discharges.
Sot it was more of a - Which versions should have them? - question. |
Re: MBT's
Quote:
REALLY ?? Now that is interesting. What version of the Iraqi OOB are you looking at ? Please open MOBHack then the Iraqi OOB then I would like you to check each T-72 , including the Iraqi modified variants, and then list for me the unit numbers of every T-72 or variant of the T-72 in the Iraqi OOB that do not have smoke discharger's. Don |
Re: MBT's
OK.
I win the STUPID award for the year. For some unexplainable reason I was looking at the "EW" rating not "Smoke Dischargers" when I was trying to figure out why the AI never seemed to use smoke when I was testing a scenario. Don ==> Suhiir :crazy: :hammer: :tough: :fish: |
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