Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

We would like to request a 6 hours extension as I won't be able to access my home computer til later.

In fact, I vote for extending turn to 48 hours, holiday season coming up too.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

LOL, I just staled myself because of work and I NEVER stsle. I will put 12 hours on in case you get tied up. If you get your turn in it will host anyway.

What do the rest of you want to do about turn speed. My little empire takes me about 20 minutes to do my turn, but some of you are getting up there.

I was planing on taking a large amount of time on a couple of turns the week before and week after Christmas (can I say that), and if we got turns in it would host again but it would be long enough to not do a turn if you didn't want to.

I would like to get a minimum of 1 turn in the week BEFORE and 1 turn in the week AFTER...how does that sound?

We have had a request for 48 hour turns...please speak up and give your opinion.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

48 hour turns sound good to me. I have some business travel coming up, followed by holiday travel, and that would be helpful.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

OK...good enough going to 48 hour turns

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Switching to 48 hours works for me. I'm leaving home for two weeks starting the 14th and will have limited internet access.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

I will be extending the game until the 26th...if anyone needs longer PM me as I also will have some company and might not get on the forums.

Merry Christmas All!!

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Beware that NAPs hold no meaning to Arco (Groundworm), who have been repeatedly committing acts of aggression against us who so wish for peace while under NAP 5 with us.

1st the overwrite of our enchantment, followed by infiltration of multiple sceptic into our lands and forts to subvert dominion.

We warn all gods who have or intend to enter into NAP or other agreements with these oath breaking scums, agreements mean nothing to them. Beware of any trades and agreements with this pretender, in the current or any future incarnations you may meet him in.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Finalgenesis, I respectfully disagree with the tone of your post. At the very least, none of my actions were meant to breach our NAP. That may, however, be at least partially my fault. I had, up until now, viewed NAPs as military agreements. In my mind, overwriting your Eternal Pyre was a strategic action and was not meant as an overt act of hostility. Your post made me rethink my ideas, as it's called a "non-aggression" pact for a reason.

As far as the sceptics... given that I have national scrying ability as well as Gift of Health up, it only makes sense to me to push my dominion in whatever ways possible. And since sceptics cost only slightly more than scouts and are better at what they do, it seems sensible to use them in place of scouts.

And the forts... forts hardly seem like an aggressive action, being that most people put them up throughout their territory in order to recruit. And especially on border provinces, purely for defense. This point I most strongly refute as evidence of aggression towards you.

I am willing to accept fault for some of my actions, but they were made still in good faith of our NAP. If you would like to summarily terminate our NAP, I will abide by that with no hard feelings. Similarly, if you wish to continue our NAP, I will remove sceptics from your territory and cease directly overwriting your global enchantments with the same enchantment.

In short, I think we have a difference of opinion in what constitutes breach of a NAP; whether you believe me or not is up to you. I'm willing to admit that I may be in error.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

I have no dog in this fight so I asked my Dad (GrudgeBringer) who used to almost exclusively play EA Arco about the Skeptics.

His answer did surprise me.

He said that he also used Skeptics as scouts but had to be very aware that the "Usual' rule of thumb was....ANY Mage, Priest, or troop of any kind that can do harm to another nation in any way in the other nations territory could be considered an act of war.

So, I asked a specific Question about skeptics. His reply was that skeptics hurt domain and cause unrest. He would try and get by with one or two as scouts but if caught he would have to make some diplomatic amends and at times was summarily attacked with out warning.

So while it doesn't sound like you meant any harm or knew any one would take it that way. It did sound as you meant to run skeptics knowing they would lower Domain.

I am not suggesting he attack you, but now I guess If I found skeptics (OR a stone idol etc) in my domain, I would probably demand compensation or attack (LOL, or cry).

I didn't know Arco had so many small weapons at its command.;)

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Good enough, kindanoob game and we're all learning as we go along.

And yes Grudgebringer's understanding in NAP is essentially what I get in the past few MP games I played in, basically revolves around the term "Non-aggression", scouting / obtaining info = not aggressive, attacking dom/unrest = aggressive, targetting another players global specifically = aggressive, I think it's pretty self-evident and I hope we have a common understanding on NAP.

I would ask for 50F as compensation for the overwrite on the pyre though, which I would think is more then reasonable.

To peace then (?).

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Extracted from our post:

"followed by infiltration of multiple sceptic into our lands and forts to subvert dominion."

Our lands and our forts, meaning your sceptic sitting on our forts to attack dominion and create unrest. Building forts and temples along borders are definitely fair game and not considered an overt act of aggression.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

I'd like to quickly compliment everyone in the previous NAP discussions on being so mature and reasonable. I can't count the number of times I've seen those kind of posts degrade into trash talking, junior high affairs.

So, well done, and thanks for keeping our game friendly and fun. I even got to learn something as to what might be considered aggressive. :)

Thanks!
Nathan

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

LOL, now I have to agree with Groundworm on forts...It IS his territory and if he wants to build forts, I would say that is his perogitive. Just because he MIGHT make and send skeptics from them doesn't mean anything....Oh, just found out another thing about skeptics, just because they are YOUR skeptics, they will screw up YOUR unrest and domain also. So you see, that is why sketics are considered a possible declaration of war. Why build them if your not going to send them anywhere. I guess it is kind of like holding in football...until you get caught there is no penalty, but once you do, it could be a big one.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

The passage in question:

Now I'm not sure whether it's my poor grammar or the reading comprehension of the readers :p. But nowhere did I say that building forts on your own land is a breach of NAP, so please, stop putting words in my mouth.

I believe the problem arises from:
Maybe this will help:
Meaning, insertion of sceptics into our (Yomi's) fort to attack our dominion, NOT building your own fort on your own province to subvert our dominion. And really, forts don't spread dominion...

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

NO...but the temples associated with them do.

Sorry, I was just putting my take on forts and skeptics...I will stay out of your guys discussion.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Anyone missing their turn file? I got the below message from turns@llamaserver.net and I'm not in this game.

@Admin - could you check that I'm not on the list receiving the turnfiles?

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Last I checked, it looked like this game might be stalled on Llamaserver. Could one of the admins look into that, please?

Thanks.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Next turn has been generated, so I think that problem (if there was one) has been resolved.

Lihaassa, thanks for mentioning this. Hylobius, are you actually receiving your turn file?

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

I will walk away from this game with a new understanding of exactly what constitutes breach of a NAP, and this will serve me well in future games.

Can we compromise on the compensation you're due? 25 fire gems?

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

I am receiving my turn files. The only thing that I did not receive was my confirmation file and now I know where that ended up :eek:

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Sure, a token gesture is all we ask. 25 A/W/F/N in any combination is okay.

We revoke our call of oath breaking on Arcoscephale and shall uphold agreements normally, let there be peace (and less micro!).

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Agreed, Finalgenesis, I shall send you the 25 gems. I don't have the ability to modify my turn right now, so if I don't get the gems to you by the time the next turn generates, I'll send them to you with my next turn.

And I second nrasch's sentiments- I appreciate the maturity and reason with which we've been able to conduct these discussions, and I'm pleased to be playing with you.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Mockingbird (Marverni)

What the hell are you talking about?

I never sent any asassians into your area, I don't even have any.

If you want to take over my area, don't break the nap without warning, I expected more than that from you as I was living by your grace anyway.

Fine, but don't disparage MY name while you become a Nap breaker. I could understand if you said you ran out of expansion room, or anything like that.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

We are quite surprised to find the demons of Abysia acting so surprised and outraged, since Abysia did in fact send assassins into Marverni territory.

See attached screenshot from turn 45. Province is Merovia (65).

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Putting aside whether Using assassins or spies as scouts are a breach of NAP, since they have no auto-aggressive abilities (assassination or incite unrest require specific order to activate, unlike sceptic, reapers and auto-unrest some units have). Do note that:

All of EA Abysia's scouts have the assassin ability. For reference they are slayer and demonbred.

So in a way, I wouldn't say they are breaching NAP unless they are assassinating commanders and thus commit an actual act of aggression with intent. Not to mention they have no scout commander without assassin ability.

Note: I've never ran into assassins being used as scouts in previous MP games so I'm unsure what the accepted consensus is. I'm only going by the general principle vets have impressed on me: actual act of aggression with intent (e.g. random global overwrite seem like aggression, but lacks specific intent and thus not a breach of NAP). We may have to trot out a vet again if you want to be sure.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Seems like you guys have a lot of nations that have assassins for scouts. Guess it will be interesting and convenient for going to war!!

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

I made a mistake it looks like. I really didn't read the description of Demonbreds and thought they were just flying scouts.

Sorry if I jumped the gun and called Mockingbird anything, I was just REALLY surprised (as you can tell) and have never played Abysia before. Guess I should have payed more attention, but once I was hemmed in from very early i just was making forts and seeing what these guys could do.

I just wish he would have done what the last deal about skeptics was handled. But (lol) I guess it is a good a excuse as any if we JUST had a blowup over the same thing and then i do it.

And even my dad makes a comment on it that seems to condone it...

My bad Mockingbird, our relationship is good and stays that way. I apologize to you and the community for getting heated up!!:up:

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

I checked with the vets on the IRC channel when I was trying to decide what to do. The consensus there was that (a) sending assassins into someone else's territory without explicit authorization is a violation of NAP, and (b) most likely indicates that an attack is eminent.

Their advice to me was to hit my opponent without warning with as much force as I could as soon as I could, before getting attacked myself.

I had overlooked that Abysia doesn't have natural scouts, but no one uses national scouts in any event, unless they have a starting scout that isn't made a prophet. (When asking for advice, I was clear that my opponent was Abysia.)

In this case, adding to my impression of hostile intent was that it was not an isolated incident, and that the assassins in question were capitol-only units not idly produced.

In private correspondence with Ragnar's Wolves, he indicated that he was just messing around with the nation and that they *were* idly produced and he didn't even realize they were assassins. I don't see any reason not to accept that at face value, and there are definitely no hard feelings on my side.

However, I was and am going to play under the assumption that the other players in the game are trying their best to win it, even if they currently face long odds.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Ouch that's another strike on playing EA aby.

EA is an era where indie scouts are rarest, often times nations don't find any at all, so there's a good chance of not being able to scout at all playing EA aby.

So the vets in question were aware that EA aby have no non-assassion scouts?

not being able to scout in MP play without risking NAP breach just sent EA aby below EA agartha in play viability for me lol, tough luck Ragnars (and I better not see your "scouts" in my territory hah!).

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

I never explicitly confirmed that the veterans knew that Abysia didn't have any national scouts, I'm just presuming that they did. After all, I don't think any era of Abysia gets national scouts.

Although really, castles produce mages unless you don't have enough money, or need some other kind of commander for very special purposes that you can't get from an indy province.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

You'd be surprised how easy it is to slip a Vets' mind.

EA doesn't actually have many indie scout provinces, I've played in EA games enough to run into cases where players not getting a single scout prov.

I find myself building scouts from forts now and then and don't always max out mage production, especially entering mid-late game with periods of peace, no gold income growth...etc

Though really, there's no need to rationalize attacking Aby, agreements are non-binding, the specific circumstances grey enough, and the prize large enough, it certainly makes strategic sense to go for it in your shoes. So speaking from an outsider perspective I applaud, plenty of vets would jump at the chance in this circumstance, it's only a matter of time for Aby anyway :p I was wondering when you or Arco would make a move.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

The reason why I'm being careful to present my reasoning is because I hold with the general philosophy that being a trustworthy actor will net me more advantage in the game over the long run than being an untrustworthy one.

Breaking an agreement to gain an advantage in one game is likely to cost me even more in other games if people won't trust me diplomatically.

So if I've made a mistake here, it was an honest one. I guess I attributed more ferocity to Ragnar's Wolves than was warranted. :p

What you say about the strategic position is true; I probably would have formally terminated my NAP with Abysia sometime soon in the proper manner. Thinking I was soon to be attacked caused me to rush my timetable and preparations, however.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

That was in fact the case for Kailasa in this very game.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Hmmm it seems the server has stalled, a force hosting may be in order.

I think Arco should be PMed and a sub seeking process started if there's no response =/ Hopefully he'll be back, we can't really have a position like Arco stale more then 1 turn without affecting the game quality adversely.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

The server hasn't stalled... I have. My apologies. Demands on my time have been greater than usual this past week, and I've been issuing postponements as I've been unable to process this particularly complex turn. I hope to have my turn sent in today.

Ragnars Wolves, who is playing Abysia, has informed me that real life events currently and indefinitely prevent him from participating in Dominions. Do we want to find a sub for him, or is he weak enough that he can set himself to AI without adversely affecting the quality of the game?

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

I think Ragnars will pass admin pass to someone, thanks for hosting the game Rags! (and good luck, was fun playing with you, hope to see you in the future)

At most a human player can do is cost Marv a little more in aby's shoes, I see no game changing impact to have them go AI.

I vote AI.

Any updates to what's going on? The turn deadline is up to a week already.

I've seen games die out after rotting for a week or so and surely don't wish for such a fate for this game, usually on the ball admins tries to find temp sub to prevent this.

Could we find you a temp sub to help alleviate any time commitments?

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

why are turns taking so long?

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Trading for W gems, offering E, D, F

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Won't be able to reach my game computer til just after hosting time, extended this turn by 12 hrs.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

i dont mind 3 day turns, but this practice of continually pushing back turns is rediculous, please set the hosting to 72 hours (or less) and lets go forward with this game. If you can't make at least one turn in 3 days, quit.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

I will second the motion with a more moderate tone, if players with admin powers need extension, it should be posted here and notified to other players the reasons as a minimal courtesy and due consideration for fellow players, rather then consecutive 2-4 days delay consistently without a word or response to questions raised (on top of hosting interval changed stealthily).

Basically, if players with admin access needs to extend (especially 2-4 days of extensions consistently) or change host settings, please communicate to the other very human players involved in the same game as you are.

btw, hosting interval has already been set to 72 hrs some time back (not by me, I didn't notice til now either), you may not have noticed due to extensions.

To clarify, I believe there are 2 players with admin access including me. I extended by 12 hrs one time as posted previously (that and force hosted the turns when all turns are handed in to speed things up), all other extensions shown in the admin log are from elsewhere.

Admin log:
http://www.llamaserver.net/doAdminAc...n=showadminlog

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

In my experience games that have frequent and lengthy delays usually die a slow death as players loose interest, and I would not like to see that happen in this game. Lets try and stick with our designated turn around.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

I will need an extension of 6 hrs (I have already extended it), Apologies.

On another note, Oceania is doing much better then I thought... I'd have expected Arco to roll over them already.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Oceania (Me) is holding its own, the lords of the watery depths have decreed all waters as sacred, and under our rightful domain. The tritons have spoken.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

I think I'm going to look for a sub for myself. Within the past 4-6 months, I signed up for several Dominions games... too many, really. I never expected to wind up in the endgame of 3 games at once, and I'm a little burnt on Dominions. This is a very good game, and I'd love to see it through to the end... but that's a long way off and I just don't know if I have it in me. I've already had 2 stales within the past 5 turns or so, and that's not like me.

So, if there are no objections, I'll post for a sub. Let me know what you think.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

Certainly, will put the game on hold until a sub is found, good luck elsewhere.

If you could take the time to brief any sub you find on the situation that would be good too.

I can certainly understand the fatigue, and I found it takes a certain mindset to handle setbacks constantly (which is a constant in MP, even if you win at the end).

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

I don't see a sub seeking thread and have taken the liberty make one.

Thanks for the heads up btw. I can't state the number of times I have to put up with silent quitting scumbags disrupting a game (Almost every single MP game I ever played in, in fact), so this is definitely a refreshing change.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

I was just about to create a thread seeking a sub, but I see you beat me to it. Thanks for taking the time to do that, it's appreciated.

Allow me to take the time to say that I realize I've created some difficulty in this game with my misinterpretation of my NAP with Finalgenesis, my multiple unstated delays and turn postponements, several undesired stales, and a general lack of communication, and now bailing. I apologize for all of these, and it's with some disappointment that I'm requesting a sub. I would like to see how things go in my war against Oceania and test out my latest ideas, but I'm just spread too thin and am not giving this game the attention it deserves.

You're all providing an excellent game, and I'm sorry to have been so difficult.

Re: New Kinda Noob game Starting
 

hmmm no one is jumping at subbing for EA arco yet.