Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I think that as far as my posts earlier in the thread are concerned, you need to go back and read the lot of it again if you think I have been dismissive of the concerns raised here.

My contributions to this thread have mainly been answering questions, often in quite detailed manner and trying to be as precise as possible without going to novel length posts to do it.

I explained to you at length why the concerns about recruitment micro were unfounded. That's the only one. The combat sequence issue that nordlys brought up has been raised with the devs, with the points brought up in this thread all put in there.

The distribution channel discussion is speculation in its entirety and people are free to hold any opinion they like on that issue. I have made clear which is the least favorite for me, but I'm open about the remaining options.

As for other suggestions, yes, the YouTube video suggestions have been noted and I at least have considered trying to learn enough about making one. Since I've never once done any video recording or editing of any sort and my YouTube-fu is limited to being able to find some songs I like there and listening to them, it might not happen instantly.

To date, time constraints have prevented me from trying to do anything about it, since what time I have had has mostly been tied up with the following stuff:

- Work
- Family
- CoE3 testing and debugging
- CoE3 manual
- CoE3 map editor guide
- Preparations for the upcoming trip to Thailand (departure tomorrow)

So there might be something at some point. Can't promise when. But if anyone starts acting like it is obligatory for us to produce a YouTube video, the likelihood that I will do so is going to start approaching zero in short order.

As far as influencing what happens with CoE3, a lot of suggestions from the beta testers have been incorporated and implemented, most of it being either user interface stuff or things that reduce micro or in some cases things that improve visuals (other than unit graphics, so I guess it could be counted as UI stuff). If I had to go back to the first version I was testing from the current one, I'd be tearing my hair (what little remains of it) out in frustration because of the lack of all the stuff that makes life easier that has been added since.

Thing is, mostly we have worked with the existing mechanics and have not suggested anything that requires drastic rewrites of large blocks of code.

Suggestions from here (other than the YouTube video requests) have mainly tended to stuff that would require large rewrites or content wise is something that may or may not appear (either at release or in a later patch) or else have been related to the distribution issue. Other than that last one, the likelihood of the suggestions being implemented is often either completely or in part related to the amount of work required.

The other factor there is what kind of vision Kristoffer and Johan have for CoE3. If a particular suggestion goes against that, there is nothing that can make it viable. Absolutely nothing.

My aim here in this thread is to answer questions about the game to the best of my ability, but if a suggestion is something that has roughly a snowball's chance in hell of happening (because of all the work and changes it would require), I'm not afraid to say so.

I'm trying to serve Illwinter's interests as well as those of the people who are interested in this game and just going "Mmmhmm, yeah, that's good" even if I know something to the contrary isn't going to help anyone.

I hope that clears things up as to where I stand with regard to the discussion of CoE3 development. In any case, I will not be participating in this discussion for the next week and a half due to the aforementioned trip abroad.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Excellent Edi.
Id also add that the conversations here are inline with the forum managements preferences. If you dont like how we present things then for people who prefer the conversation styles of the other forums it might be best to discuss it there with the beta representatives on that forum. Im not being rude. There are beta people in most of the forums who might present your interests in the manner you wish.
(No I will not say who they are. If you ask there and they dont speak up then its not for me to out them)

SA people and Qto3 people, you know Im your "beta rep" if you want to discuss it there. :)

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Have a good trip Edi.

Thanks for the explanations both of you.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I mostly lurk this forum and rarely post, but...
It's really interesting to read the devlog and posts from beta-testers in this thread. It looks like this game will be perfect for me, I'm sure right now, that I'll but it. The only wish I have is modding capabilities (especially with no hardcoded limits like in Dom3, or with broad limits). I'm here just to say, that I appreciate all the work of developers, beta-testers and idea-givers. Thank you all, and keep up the good work!

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Are you a lichenologist?

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Reported and Repaired.
Good catch.

Or if I had editing powers I could do it like they do in the beta forum. Turn your original post to green text (meaning its fixed). Or purple text (meaning WAD Working As Designed)

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

If you get the chance to see Chaang Rai or Chaang Sen, go for it. Both are incredible, though for very different reasons. Or at least, they were back in 2004, when I lived in Thailand for a year.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Keep in mind COE (judging by COE2) is much easier-to-get-into and more "casual" than Dominions. In fact, I have no problems imagining COE2 as a flash or a mobile game (actually, I think Illwinter could benefit a lot by considering the ios/android ports for some additional untapped market for COE3 - and no, before you ask, I don't have either platform and don't plan to get one :D ). So it does have a much wider potential market in my opinion than the ultra-hardcore and, dare I say, elitist Dominions.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Yes, CoE3 is "fun" to play.

As for Edi and Gandalf's comments, they are completely honest. When they say your comments have been brought up in the beta forum, they have. In all the betas I've worked on, no developer has ever asked, or responded to a beta tester's opinion on distribution or pricing.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

In CoE2, in the early games, the warlord characters were typically superior, while later game gave the advantage to enchanters, demonologists, etc. From my experience, there typically wasn't anything that could really change this. Warlords might get lucky and recruit a wizard, but the wizards weren't game changers at all. Mostly something that would give them an advantage to a comparable army, but not against all the magic beasts that they might face in the late game.

Is there anything in CoE3 that is going to give the warlord characters a bit more of a late game edge, like more access to more powerful wizards? Or are they still banking on using their early game advantage to dominate quickly?

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

They arent quite so cut-n-dried for melee OR magic. But they do tend toward early-game or late-game powerful. I think they all have something to spread that out abit. And we do tend to keep asking for things like that. Im trying hard to rotate continually thru the different nations and come up with some sort of suggestion each time.

Im still hopeful that some of the balance experts might jump in for detailed comparisons before its released.
And a YouTubey/AAR person

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

ON THE OTHER HAND
The AI is very good. And the alliance options are a lot of fun. Choosing a team with one melee and one magic works well even if you leave your partner as AI. Certain teamups are fantastic. If they do not overlap on what resources they use then you can easily share territory. The melee can provide early game expansion and protection, then when running up against armies of summons the partner can come forward with all the power he has built up under that protection

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Sounds good Gandalf.

If anyone gets a AAR done for youtube I'd be thankful :)

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

May I ask what would you say are the key features in which CoE3 is better than it's predecessor?

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I'm also eager to hear about what changes there are since COE2. It sounds like the interface is the major difference along with spell casters working somewhat differently. What sort of new stuff has been put in or changed?

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

To tell you the truth at this point I would have to go back and play CoE2 in order to give a decent answer. Im not eager to do that. Its even getting to the point that I have trouble comparing it to Dom3 because there is enough similarity to be confusing after playing CoE3 multiple times a day for 6 months. Maybe some other beta tester has a firmer remembrance of CoE2

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I know the Illwinter guys posted a couple pictures a while back, but would it be possible to get a couple more screen shots? I know a detailed AAR or a youtube video might not be within the abilities/time constraints of some of the beta testers, but I wouldn't mind getting a couple more sneak peaks of what some of the different features are going to look like, so long as it is within the bounds of what you're allowed to do/share as a beta tester.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I agree about the youtube video... it will help spark interest in the game amongst the other gaming communities and even with my own relatives.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Did someone mention doing a youtube video yet?

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Hey,

I can watch Youtube :happy:

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

A YouTube was mentioned, and a great idea.
But apparently no active beta tester has any experience with doing a YouTube LP or AAR

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Thats understandable. Rereading my last post, I might not have clearly made my request. Basically, understanding that not everybody has the time/ability to do a youtube AAR, I was just wondering if it is possible to see some more screen shots.

I get nerdly turned on for screen shots. :o

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

At the moment my ability to upload screenshots is borked. And my game machines are buried deep behind walls.
But I like the idea. If I get time I will work on it

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I'm back from Thailand and I expect I could run a few games during the weekend and take some screenshots. Uploading them is no problem for me.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Awesome! Thanks for keeping us in the loop.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Ask and you shall receive.
A few screenshots are available on the progress page now

And Welcome Back Edi :)

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Looks great. I notice the spells are all level one or two. Is level 2 the highest they go?

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

http://www.indiedb.com/games/conques...ysium-3/videos wow, a video!

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Level 3 is the highest, but they are hard to get. A fully upgraded mage (or a level 2 one generated with a pre-equipped magic booster item) has level 3 spells and some summons like demon lords or elemental kings and queens have level 3 spells.

Of course, the usefulness of a level 3 vs a level 2 spell is situational. Some level 3 spells are always more useful and some level 3 spells you never want to use at all or there can be level 2 stuff that is generally more useful.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Maybe this isn't decided yet, but is it possible to play a LAN game with only one serial key? I'm just wondering if I'll have to buy a second copy to play with my GF on our two computers instead of a hotseat.

That video makes the game look pretty slick! Thanks to whoever made it.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Protection schemes tend to come late. I think partly because whoever the distributor will be might have a say in it. Until late development those things stay simple to simplify testing

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

@Edi, when you write that there are some level 3 spells that you don't want to use, do your means it in the context our your spécific faction/army/situation (the spell could be useful in some other situation, like a spell doing fire damage to both armies being really useful only if you're playing with an army protected from fire or ready to sacrifice your army and the caster against a larger army) ?

It would be a shame to have are such high level spells being really useless in game.

Hum, just noticed on the indiedb page that the game is listed with a release date in February !

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Some of the spells have an area effect of the entire battlefield. They are good spells, but must be used carefully.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I was just going to ask the same question. Excellent catch on the release date. I can't wait!

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Question regarding AI difficulty levels.

Will higher levels of AI Difficulty actually reflect smarter decisions made by the AI? Or does the AI cheat or get pre programed advantages at higher levels, like more income, etc.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

I asked this earlier and Edi said the AI doesn't get smarter it gets resource bonuses.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

However, the AI is much better than Dom3. Instead of one generic AI for all nations, these are separate and play specific to that nation. A marked improvement.

Ive been in debates in the AI forums of dev sites about smart vs cheats. Levels of smart AI are hard to envision. That would be taking the best you have, and chopping it up to make it dumber. Its going to be awhile before the upper level of that would be a better-than-human player so that the range extends below AND above the average human player. The best that has been achieved in games has been randomly chosen different AIs (aggressive, defensive, medium) which Dom3 had. Its possible with one AI (such as games with only one opponent to write the AI for). To mix different AI styles (defensive, research, turtle, expansion, aggressive, horde) within the AIs logic for each nation, would probably move a games release at least a year further IMHO
But it would be nice

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

A good video, cheers whoever posted it :)

I noticed that towns you own have a simple border of your color, anyway to make the towns have flags or the like? Little things like that add player immersion in the game.

I'm going to play some CoE2 to remember....

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Please make the ai highly moddable.
While making ai takes a lot of time; once a game is out for awhile, sometimes there's peopel who will put in the time to seriously build/tweak ai.

I wish i was in the beta, got any slots? :)

also, is qm in? qm should be, with all the balance work he's done.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Flags would get very cluttered. Some nations can only claim cities and mines. But others can claim swamps, and forests, and lots of other things.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Most level 3 spells are useful, but some you really need to watch. There are also differences between spells of the same name that belong to different disciplines of magic.

To take an example, Black Death is available to Necromancy, Foul Magic, Nahualli Magic, Kuro Do, Troll Magic and Hedge Magic. It is a mass disease spell. In Troll magic it has an aoe of "all enemies". In all the others its aoe is "entire battlefield", which is obviously going to also hit the caster and all of his troops.

Undead are not affected by disease, so the only one who can use it reliably without shafting his own troops is a necromancer who has already transformed himself to a vampire or a lich. Given that disease has little direct effect in combat (well, Str -1, so less damage inflicted by those affected) but is otherwise much like Dom3 disease, the usefulness of that spell is much less than, say battlefield damage spells (especially if your own troops have immunity).

Then there is stuff like Meteor Showers which is a 1d20 blunt + 1d8 fire battlefield damage spell. It's great if you have tough troops of your own who can take the pounding and a caster who's either immortal or tough enough to survive and the enemy has more fragile troops. If you only have standard troops and a standard (i.e. fragile) mage, casting that spells is a surefire way to wipe yourself out pretty thoroughly. So use with care.

Whereas something like Hellfire (battlefield wide 1d10 fire damage) is great to spam if you have a fire immune army. Of course, if the other guy's army is also fire immune, that spells is decidedly less useful.

There are this kind of considerations in many cases. Also one of the things is that sometimes it is actually useful to memorize "useless" spells (such as poison resistance when facing units with no poison attacks) in order to curtail the choice of spells available for casting in a given battle. Then the random selection has a greater probability of hitting something you want, especially if there is one spell you would prefer the mage to cast over others.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

no, i dont think so. but its indeed a great idea.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

There is a video altho not on youtube. Its on IndieDB
http://www.indiedb.com/games/conquest-of-elysium-3

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Thank you for the screen-shots & video. The game looks awesome.

I recall there was another thread re. COE3 where IIRC I asked about PBEM but I can't seem to find it. So I'd like to ask again what MP forms are supported?- Hot Seat only?

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

So far.....
The setup is much like Dom3's direct-connect method. Blitz game style.

I can setup a game by simply telling it "server mode" and what port to use. People then bring up their copy and connect by telling it my IP and the port I assigned it. There is no PbEM. The turns in CoE3 would be awfully fast for PbEM anyway.

After that it gets quite different. The game parameters are setup by the players, not the host. And the games go very fast. Players can drop out, and drop back in, or someone else can pick up a players position who has dropped out. And the turns move very fast. I think it will tend to play best if done thru IRC or Chat. OH and in server mode the turns are simultaneous. You can watch your allies actions as they make them

So far of course.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Sounds great for the blitz oriented crowd.

For casual gamers who don't have time to sit out a blitz game PBEM would work better I assume. That, or a scheme that allows players to play on and off in slower paced games.

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

It can be taken down and put back up. It does have autosave, game restore, etc.
So if people wanted to play 100 turns then drop it till another day, that would work. But there is no in-game communication so without IRC or Skype or something then it would be hard to manage

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

That could work well.

Are all the players required to play at the same time?- I gather that the answer is yes. This will limit the game players to the same TZ and similar routine (as in have a free evening on a given day...).

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

They dont have to play at the same time. But really, even in late game the turns are so quick that I dont see a game being done one-turn-a-day. I guess it will probably be tried so someone might like it but it doesnt seem likely.

Ive always said everything has its pros and cons. I guess that goes for MicroManagment also. If there is none, there isnt much of a turn. The game goes quick but doesnt work well for the usual Dom3 style games

Re: Conquest of Elysium 3 dev log
 

Whats it like managing the wandering neutrals who steal your towns, gallows, forests ect., ?

Playing CoE2 yesterday I was reminded what a pain they are. I guess in CoE3 you don't need to click on a stack to see what "type" it is (for neutrals) and in CoE2 generally only certain types steal your captured points, so this probably makes it easier. And being able to zoom out means monitoring the map is easier. In CoE2 I'd forget to check part of the map and then find a stack of two bandits have stolen everything.

On this point is there a way to see exactly where other players, including neutrals, move to? An optional button to display a path where stacks have moved from might be good.