Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

This is not a ( I think ! ) Saved battle vs Scenaio issue

dTerms example was..... it appears..... built as a battle not a scenario

????

Is that true ?

My tests were all built as generated battles and I edited the map to put the buildings on. Lazovs test was built as a scenario and was Beegs it appears

How they are built *might* be an important factor so I need some answers please

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I'm not getting your point here... :o

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Yes, your correct. It was a generated battle with a custom map. ;)

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

In what way exactly ??

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

OK, maybe we are actually getting somewhere....... that was a custom map

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

This is my latest test using a Custom map ( so one edited and saved then reloaded for use in the test )

I tried to recreate it exactly as the previous examples

https://i.imgur.com/eXvy9GK.png

This is how it looked after I cleared the smoke from the bombardment..... there are FOUR "missing" buildings

https://i.imgur.com/tyAA7CB.png

Then I saved it and reloaded the save

https://i.imgur.com/U42NkyS.png


My previous tests were all done from a generated battle. I started it, went to Edit map...... I edited the map and then targeted the buildings with arty and let the turn play out.. THE BATTLE WAS NOT SAVED THEN PLAYED

The critical difference **appears to be** the map had never undergone a save before the barrage was applied to it in the first examples I posted earlier today

This last example that shows building gone after the bombardment but returned after re-loading the save were all made as custom maps, then saved, then applied to a battle ( generated or scenario ) and those ones showed missing buildings

To confirm that will requiure all the same tests done again and again to see if the problem orginates with the saving of the map before the test is run OR if that is just a one-off co-incidence

Ain't this fun ?

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Well thats a theory that ended in a dead end which is a good thing as it reduces the variables

I set up a new test from a generated battle using a map that was edited but not saved exactly like my earlier posts today

They are not the exact same buildings but that does not seem to matter

At set up

https://i.imgur.com/CyOjGUi.png

The targeting

https://i.imgur.com/9rgFndy.png



So it looks like the luck of the dice didn't show it in the earlier tests but these ones do and this one and the earlier one were both done as a Generated battle that had the map edited then the bombardment targeted on the buildings so it APPEARS that the problem is not in Map saving which, I guess, is "good news" .......it's one less variable


MISSING BUILDINGS

https://i.imgur.com/jlHD2VP.png


After re-loading the save the buildings are back

https://i.imgur.com/y2DxGQE.png


WHY the earlier example that had three complete arty attacks with the same arty and didn't show a missing building is a question I hope I find the answer to but for now remains a mystery

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Big buildings use a particular larger graphic that is removed if the "key hex" is destroyed. Then the big building graphic goes away and is replaced by a 1 hex rubble graphic as with any other bult up area rubble.

The key hex is not necessarily "part" of the building AFAIR - there are a couple of them where the key hex is on the paved part "outside" the house part.

Any damage to the area "under" the big building graphic causes individual rubble hexes as the hex is flagged as built up area.

This has been the case since the original SP1 came out way back, it is how it has always been - and is baked into the original SSI code. It seems to have been a quick "kludge fix" to let the game have these factories and hangars etc. Multiple hex buidlings have always been squirrely because they were a kludge, leading to road hexes being marked as "BUA", laying and then deleting "large" buildings when making maps leaving hexes marked as BUA (as they dont clear their area properly) and so on since the game debuted.

Any attempt to "fix" that would be a horrendous effort to fix the original kludge that SSI introduced. That wont be happening.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

.........I restarted that save and pounded those buildings for 5 more turns and none "disapeared"

........and for those of you that do not remember SP1 and SP2...... this happened then too. ( AH ! I see Andy beat me too it )

The workaround to this ( for now and maybe forever ) is IF you see a large multi hex building go missing, save the game as soon as you see it and restart the game with the save game and that seems to be the reset

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Well it was fun creating the scenario, sort of jump started my creativity.

:D

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

OK........ this is the last thing I am posting today. It is not a "fix" per se but it is a solution

This is the "Vanish" save that was posted by dTurn after the lower right building vanished leaving only the rubble

https://i.imgur.com/chIjt5w.png

At that point I simply pressed the END GAME red arrow button

Then I went to the save game menu and started the AUTOSAVED GAME

https://i.imgur.com/V3OYxuv.png

The autosave saved the game at the exact point I pressed the end game button so when the game started up it started the game up right at that exact point only now the building is back and the turn can be continued with the building restored

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Yep, loading the autosave only in case of disappearing buildings, is of cource more convenient than saving every turn manually. Good enough workaround for me. :)

Thank you, Gentlemen! :up:

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

It may not be the most idea solution but it allow the game to be re-set with a minimal effort.... a couple seconds really

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Thanks everyone. I'm glad I'm not losing my mind. :crazy:

The save game workaround is not ideal, as Don said, but this issue only affects a very small percentage of gameplay and most players will probably never encounter it or notice it, I would think.

I didn't mean to divert the discussion about junk hexes and game crashes (which is more important) but I thought this might be something related to that.

Plus... I learned how to zip and upload files! :banana:

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Personally I think this whole discussion reveals that some of the issues that folks notice (or bugs if you will) have been in the game and the code for that matter since 1995 when SSI first made SP1. In many cases Don and Andy have fixed them, but in the buildings going poof its so convoluted (the code that they inherited) that its not worth risking breaking the iceberg (or one's mental state, I have been in situations when the javascript code is a complete and utter bugged up mess and its better just to start over then unwind and figure out the intentions of some dude 20 years ago).

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I suspect some will feel uncomfortable pressing END GAME without saving but doing that creates an autosave.

As the testing I posted showed it can take a LONG time for this to happen in some cases and it wasn't until Don sent me his tests that I saw it this time though and then I hit my test buildings with arty harder and saw it but in his test not nearly as much arty as I used managed to make a few go away.

I suspect a lot of players may not even notice it especially ones that might play out a turn or two per sitting because their save restores the building but in the case of the END GAME procedure, autosave takes a snapshot of that point the END GAME button is pressed so starting the autosave takes you to the exact point you were when you pressed it and the buildings are restored

The message for the End game button is "End the Game and EXIT" at the top of the screen
Then you see at the bottom of the screen "Do you really want to end the game Y/N "

I may change the first message to something like

"End the Game, autosave and EXIT"

or

"End the game and Exit (The game will be saved in the Auto-Saved game slot)

Final result ( both games )

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1697550725

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Both of those would work, the first is sufficient enough for me but the second may be more detailedly explanitorory for others.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I had to add a bit more detail because Autosave for that is different than the autosave for PBEM or maps

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Wouldn't it be a good idea to change the message for the END TURN button in a similar way? :idea: :ahh:

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

We are looking at various wordings

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

While testing the fixed binary (which appears to consistently solve the junk terrain issues on my machine btw. :up:) I observed, that in single-player and hotseat games it's not the red END TURN button that creates the autosave, but the START TURN button on the Start Turn Screen, when you continue playing.

Can anyone confirm this, or am I missing something here? :pc:

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Well this is weird. Will need to investigate further. I thought for certain that it was saving at the point the red up arrow was pressed

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

OK......

1/ I started a simple game, moved a unit then pressed the red up arrow then went to the auto-save slot and started it and that game was back to where I was before I moved the unit

2/ I started an old save game, move a unit then presses the red up arrow and started it and that game was back to where I was before I moved the unit

3/ I started a different old save game.... lets call it #3, I moved a unit then pressed the red up arrow button then went to the save game screen and started the autosave and it was old save game #3....... BEFORE I moved the unit:doh:


SO it would APPEAR your observation is correct. The autosave is being made when the game ( originally ) loads. :shock:

OK.... learned something new today........:re:

We will look into this and get the procedure strainghend out and the working adjusted for the next release

That does explain why the building were restored when loading the autosave though........

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

But from what I observed, it doesn't make any practical difference regarding this issue. It works nonetheless.

I just wanted to let you know, because of the wording for the END TURN message you changed. ;)

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Ah, ok, after reading you post again, I realized, that's what you mean.

:doh:

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

..........This has been a l o n g journey

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

FWIW......

I just tried a new test with the "Vanish" game that had been posted

I hammered the buildings until one disappeared then saved normally.

When I restarted, the multi-hex building that had only shown rubble had been restored. ( WITH THE RUBBLE....which is as it should be )

Anyone interested can try that and report that they see the same thing.

EDIT

This was done with MBT but the test I ran with SPWW2 did the same

This is after the multi hex building had been hammered by arty and disappeared
https://i.imgur.com/fCV2gQM.png

I then saved the game in a regular save slot then restarted

https://i.imgur.com/X645Gqp.png

The building returns on restarting the save

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

If anyone sees a building disapear check the registration hex ( typically the upper left hex of the series it had been in ) BEFORE it is saved and let me know if hovering the cursor over that hex shows it to be rough and after you save and restart does it show "paved"

The theory I am exploring now is if the registration hex is turned to rough that is when the building disappears.

After saving and restarting the building will be restored but report the hex under the registration hex is Paved

IF you build a map and place a multi over a rough hex the registration hex ( and some others usually ) will report "paved" and I think that change to rough during as bombardment might be the key to why they disappear

SO FAR I have not found a multi that shows rough under the registration hex

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

One step closer to solving this

This is a test map after bombardment. Note even though this is a lot of rubble the buildings still show


https://i.imgur.com/0jdHp5t.png



This is a test map after I placed rough on every multi hex building registration hex


https://i.imgur.com/QmOJtKI.png


It would appear if rough is created in the registration hex of a building (any building ) during a bombardment the building will disappear but re-appear after the save is restarted because the process of saving and restarting removes the temporary rough hex that was created

That's the working theory ATM

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

8 buildings placed

https://i.imgur.com/mSACNw1.png

8 buildings with rough put into the registration hex

https://i.imgur.com/uri8xgs.png

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

I again ran the Vanish game from earlier and observed the following:

Before any of the triggering bombardment all the registration hex report 'clear'.

After it, but before saving, the reg hex of the disappearing building reports 'rough'.

After loading the saved game, the hex reports as 'paved road'.

If I understood you correctly, that's what you are looking for.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

That is what I observed as well but I belive when this happens it is a "false rough" which is why the building disappears and why it reapears when you load the save as a multi hex building cannot exist on a rough hex

If you build a map with a large rough area when you put the building down on the rough and check the registration hex you will find it reports being paved. I think this is part of the problem as I belive it should be clearing down to clear terrain not paved but when it is hit hard with arty and it is given a rough classification that is when the buildings go away and a save and restart then shows that rough hex as paved just as it would if you were building a map with multi hex buildings over rough

SOMEWHERE in that is the key but with this we may have found the lock the key fits into

I think too that is why some old maps that have had terrain put down and re-done a few times leave invisible roads that are only detected when you run the cursor over them or you notice your unit moves further than you think it should

I also think this is an O L D issue

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Is this similar to the issue I brought up where the building with drop road tiles around larger ones? I mentioned last year in MBT. I saw it a couple of times in WW2.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

It is possible they are related in some way. I have found road hexes just to the left or right of a multi, but some of that is how a rectangular building fits into a Hex grid.

I have not found any above or below a multi

EDIT

NOTE: if you place multis on clear terrain there is no paved round underlay that I have ever found. You get that when you put on over rough terrain so *GOOD PRACTICE* when placing multi hex buildings in a custom map or scenario would be to make sure that there is NO ROUGH terrain anywhere near the building which means hit the area you want the entire building to sit with something like grass or sand or even tall grass and then put the building down..... grey sand is good to represent gravel

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

For the disappearance of multi hex building I belive it is safe to say it is directly the result of the underlying terrain of a multi hex buildings registration hex (normally the top left ) being temporarily turned into rough terrain but it can be a gold plated B!TCH to get it to convert one sometimes with this as proof

https://i.imgur.com/ZnRYnsz.png

I hammered that over and over and could not get the building to disappear

BUT... I could not find a hex showing "rough" anywhere and the test was to see if rough could be created anywhere BUT under a multi registration hex

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

When I have seen building do the vanishing trick, it's normally in a large urban area, the Battle for Rome scenario is one that I have seen in, I think it was that, need to check again, but it cost me a vehicle when I went cool clear terrain and found out other wise as drove into the wrong hex without paying attention to things.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

....another little tidbit of info

• A multi hex building placed on rough will automagically change that rough to paved road
• A Multi placed on clear terrain will not BUT..... if you beat it up with arty and create rough in that hex once the game is saved and reloaded the game will convert that rough to paved road

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

So the temporary solution is IF you are in an urban environment with large multihex buildings that have been hammered with arty. Save the game then restart and the building will be restored and you won't bump into it accidentally.

The issue is NOT going to change unless we figure out why hexes under multi-hex buildings will vanish when the registration hex for the building is converted to rough so half the battle for players is understanding why it happens and what I wrote is why it happens..... the registration hex is being converted to rough and multi hex buildings over rough need to have that hex be anything but rough or it will disappear until the save game is reloaded

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

And we have this

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1698346258

If you see that message even if you don't see a building don't press Y. ASSUME the building is there, you just don't see it


We are actively looking into a solution for this but there are warnings......don't ignore them

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

There is definately some repair code for buildings and other stuff that I wrote a decade or more back that cures the problem if you load a game from the save file. Multi hex buildings were always a problem from the SSI days on, and we have been fixing them like forever it seems...

It will likely require a small fix to the code that rubbles buildings which seems to be placing a rough hex there sometimes, either that or simply perhaps by calling the map repair code at the end of the player and/or AI phase, or the bombardment phase since it only seems to happen with arty terrain "modification":).

I may try bombarding a test multi hex building with an SU-152 in direct fire mode and see if blowing the registration hex to blazes with that mode of fire also shows the problem - it would be far simpler for testing than randomly pounding the ground with all the heavy artillery of a corps to see the effect.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

You will find that EXTREMELY unproductive

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Yeah...this was BEFORE the warning thing was a thing so what looked clear open terrain wasn't. Now I am much more careful in urban fights. like no tanks through buildings at all. I let the AI do that.

Re: Omaha Beach - Scen #9
 

Here is what I know after a lot of testing

First some background
// pattern for multi hex buildings in code is:
// X X X X
// X X X X
// X X X X
This is a line of code that represents a multi-hex building

{0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 0}

so that building would look like this

0000
0110
0110

https://forum.shrapnelgames.com/atta...1&d=1698497358
In that example the outlined red hex is the registration hex

1. The real issue has nothing to do with rough terrain or paved road that is put under some of the multi-hex buildings
2. The real issue is the creation of rubble in the registration hex of the multi-hex building changes the terrain under the registration hex.......sometimes...... the creation of rubble there does not always 100% make the building invisible
3. There are multi-hex buildings that do not have part of the building in the registration hex. Those buildings will not go invisible during gameplay because no rubble is created where there is no building in the hex to turn to rubble
4. If a multi-hex building is placed on a map using either the in-game map editor or the advanced editor and the registration hex is turned to rubble using the "add heavy damage" button the building will disappear and re-appear almost instantly and it may show faster or slower depending on the speed of your PC
5. Once a building has been restored that way I have not yet been able to get it to disappear after it was restored

There is code that fixes buildings that Andy put in years ago

The "trick" right now is finding the spot it is put into the map-making code that fixes the buildings while heavy damage is applied and then figuring out where the ideal place for this would be in the general game code so that this issue is no longer a problem......

...and it IS a problem for all games that have multi hex buildings in them that have a "building" in the registration hexes but it is less of an issue with PBEM as there IS a restore code that is activated when a game is saved and then restarted as would be normal for PBEM. Where this is a problem is when game turns are played one after the other without saving and restarting the game from a save

So now you know what we know, rest assured we are looking into it