Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Ok I re-did calculation.
There is however two different hypothesis:
H1: When a 5kt damage hit a component but is not enough to destroy it, the 5kt damage will be added to the next shoot, whose target will be randomly chosen (not necessarly the same one).

H2: When a 5kt damage hit a component but is not enough to destroy it, the 5kt will be added to the next shoot, which will target the same component, if it is targettable (no X Only weapon).

For me H1 is wrong because it makes the armor used in adamant mod useless:
(for 1 armor of 30kt)
Hit 1 5kt, hit armor.
Hit 2 5kt+5kt=10kt, hit armor.
Hit 3 5kt+10kt=15kt, hit component => destroy 1 5kt component, 10kt left, hit armor.
Hit 4 5kt+10kt=15kt, hit component => destroy 1 5kt component, 10kt left, hit component => destroy 1 5kt component, 5kt left, hit armor.
Hit 5 5kt+5kt=10kt ....

With H2, we have:
Hit 1 5kt, hit component, 1 5kt component destroy
Hit 2 5kt, hit armor.
Hit 3 5kt+5kt, still armor.
Hit 4 5kt+10kt, still armor.
Hit 5 5kt+15kt, still armor.
Hit 6 5kt+20kt, still armor.
Hit 7 5kt+25kt, destroy armor.

Anyway using both hypothesis, with teh following configuration ships:
Components: 10 5kt components.
Ship A: 10 5kt armor. (total 50kt=> 50% of ship)
Ship B: 1 30kt armor. (total 30kt=> 37% of ship)

Shoot of 5kt.
For 4 shoots, the leaking damage is:
Ship A: 10kt (on total of 20kt damage)
Ship B, H1: 14.8kt
Ship B, H2: 6.6kt

So given the result of SJ test, I would favor H2 as being true.

Of course this for only 4 shoots (but the calculation is very complicated for Ship B,H1 because of reported damage and new targets)

Any confirmation for the hypothesis?

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is a well tested theory, and I believe has been confirmed by MM at some point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also, it in no way makes the armor used in adamant useless. There are very few weapons that do tiny amounts of damage.

[ May 16, 2003, 07:33: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Sorry, I don't mean the armor is useless, but I cannot understand why having a 30kt armor would be more efficient than having 10 5kt armor if this is true.

But I guess I will have to use the really number from your mod, won't I? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But do we agree on that:
The probability for a component to be hit is:
< struct of the component > / < total remaining struct of ship >
Anytime there is unused damage point, either because it is remaing damage after destroyinga component, or because it targeted too strong a component, is added to the next shoot.
The targeted component of a shoot is totally independent of the previous shoots (except that destroyed components are not targetted anymore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Did I understand right?

[ May 16, 2003, 08:20: Message edited by: StarBaseSweeper ]

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

AFAIK, hypothesis H2 is true. That is, if a component is damaged but not destroyed, the next shot will also hit that component unless it is of a special damage type which prevents that (i.e., Only Engines, Only Planet Destroyers, etc).

For instance, if I shoot a a ship with DUC V's (40 ADU) and hit a colony comp (200kt structure), no damage will be seen until the fifth shot, when enough damage has accumulated to destroy the comp. However, if I replace the Last DUC V with an Ionic Disperser V (also 40 damage, but Only Engines damage type), all 200 damage will be pulled out of the colony comp and be applied to the engines.

At least, that's how it worked before. Did it change somewhere?

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's what I think too.
I think that's why Adamant heavy armor is so much more efficient than the small armor, making the system of leaking armor very ingenious. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

That's why I like it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Well again, thank SJ for leaky armor, not me. He is the one that came up with it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif At least, I think he is the one that came up with it... he made the leaky armor in B5 mod a long time ago... and has had that bucky gel tube plating stuff in P&N for a long long time...

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Focusing more about Adament mod, maybe some ideas (that you maybe either already have, or have better...):

It is possible to make each race different.
For example, for the magic race, you could imagine that they do not have AI, so no master computer available. On the other side, all the crew is magic user, so all component consirered as filled with people would generate/regenerate shield. As well, the bridge, crew quarter, living querater, and several type of weapons may have boarding defense abilities, very high as all are training magicians, and all generate shields.

On the other side for Organic, all component would be regenerable, and maybe have boarding party ability. You could sacrifice engines, weapons to board, as every part is living, it can be use for attack. Not sure this is possible though.
Maybe the organic would have absolutly no shield, they may have non-leaking armor?

Just some ideas, if it helps.

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1053151861.BMP

Concept Ship

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Would not it be better with green Hull?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif *start to laught crazily*

It really look like mana generating craft.

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Ed: if by that you mean "looks really good", sure. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Is it just me or does every shipset Atrocities makes now look like his 8472 set? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1053216167.BMP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1053216266.BMP

Concept two And if anyone says this looks like my 8572 set I'll --- http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 18, 2003, 01:06: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Interesting ship. Hey, it looks just like your 8472 ships! *runs away giggling like a school girl* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1053223131.BMP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1053223153.BMP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/newup...1053223179.BMP

[ May 18, 2003, 03:01: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Looking good!

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

They look like flying bows. Interesting concept to say the least PCP.

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

I like the third ship (rightmost) of the three you just posted. Looks neat. Are these for the magic race?

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Thanks Kwok. I don't know what they are to be used for. Fyron asked me to make a set of 9 ships that any one could build. If he wants them for his mod great, if not I will release them for general use along with all of my other concept ships.

If he wants them developed into a complete set for use with his mod then I can do that as well.

Hey, if you want any of the newer ships for the ST mod just take em.

I am nearing completion of the new Andorian ships. Should have them done by the end of the week.

And CNC, they are based upon bows. I thought that since Bows are used in some games as magic items, ie they shoot magic arrows, then perhaps it would fit. Fyron sent me a link to a page but my connection is so fricking slow that I have not been able to see what an actual spellcaster looks like so I am forced to come up with my own interpitation of one.

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

I asked atro to make some ships for use as Mercenary ships. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Fyron.... Your combat sensors do not increase in ability 1 for each level.

Is this done on purpose ??

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Yes they do. They range from 10% to 35% bonus.

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

bizarre... they showed up in the modder differently then the text file

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

bizarre... they showed up in the modder differently then the text file

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Really? Does it happen every time you load them in the modder? Maybe you found a really weird rare bug with the modder.

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Which would you (meaning anyone that cares to respond) prefer about ship size:
1) They should increase linearly as the do now.
eg: +50, +50, +50, etc.
2) They should increase exponentially (or at least the rate increase should get bigger with each tech level).
2a) eg: +50, +60, +70, +80, etc.
2b) or: +50, +100, +200, +400, etc.
3) There should be a large gap between "light" starships and "capital" starships, with a linear progression of ship sizes.
eg: 100, 150, 200, 250, ... , 400, 700, 800, 900, etc.
4) There should be a large gap between "light" starships and "capital" starships, with an increasing rate of change for progressing ship sizes.
eg: 100, 150, 210, 270, ... , 500, 600, 1000, 1100, 1220, 1360, etc.
5) Some other mechanism, with my explanation following.

Just some random values to illustrate the points. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

I personally like something like option 2b, albeit with a slower growth curve - each hull size is some percentage, say 125%, the size of the Last... I know about diminishing returns but it gets kind of silly when you get really high in levels you're spending ridiculous amounts of research points for minuscule improvements http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif ... also, an exponential curve allows for a wider variety of ship sizes - MOO2 had ships ranging from 25 kT to 1200 kT and that was only 6 sizes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif (OK, so they did double or triple every size...) The only problem with that would be making it feasible to actually design the larger ships... either you'd need scale mounts (which don't work when the largest ship is over 100 times the size of the smallest) or you'd be clicking a LOT of components on the larger ships! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think the different should not too big so that a little advance in research would result in a big advantage in combat, but big enough at high level.

I think it is simply better to multiply by a factor than to add a constant http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif (even though it is similar)

For example you decide the size between m (min)and M (Max). You want N ships. k is the factor for size increase between two ship.
M = k ^ (N - 1) * m ==> k = (M / m) ^ (1 / (N - 1))

So if we take m = 100 and M = 2000, N = 10, we have:
k = (2000/100)^(1/(10-1)) = 1.39 (139%)
The size Sn = m * k ^ (n-1). But it is better to round it down to closest multiple of 10 (IMO):
100 140 190 270 380 530 740 1030 1430 2000

Just my opinion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
(I used that one...)

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

I know how to do math, you know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Ed:
I am not going to use scale mounts. I am also not going to use ship hull size based mounts.

[ May 22, 2003, 04:47: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

I am thinking of having 3 ranges of ships separated by sizeable gaps. Light starships, capital ships, and even bigger ships, perhaps "titan" ships. The ship Groups would be staggered, so you would start to get some smaller capital ships while you are still getting new starship sized ships, and the same with capital ships and titan ships. I hope that made sense. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 22, 2003, 08:52: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

I guess the advantage of this is that when reaching the gap every empires will have time to construct fleets of the maximum ship size of the current serie, without one empire making the ship size difference getting bigger and bigger.

The one that would have research bigger weapons may have a chance to change the balance during that gap, before his/her enemy finally get the first ship of the next serie (bigger weapon, same ship size). Then...

EDIT: After reading my own message, I wonder:
What will be the advantage of having a bigger hull in the Adamant mod?

EDIT2: Typo correction.

[ May 22, 2003, 10:15: Message edited by: StarBaseSweeper ]

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

More leaky shields on the ship, so more damage can be reduced by it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Concentration of defenses into fewer ships. Say you have one 800 kT ship versus 2 400 kT ships. They should be about equal, right? Well, have them do half as much damage to each other. One 400 kT ship is destroyed, and so the average firepower of the smaller ships is instantly cut in half. The 800 kT ship is still alive, though battered, so it now has more strength than the other side does. This is of course a simplification, but it illustrates the basic idea.

Here is a preview of the next Version. Adamant sure is leaky, what with leaky armor, shields and now update leaks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
Version 0.11.04:
1. Changed - Talismans now have boarding defense abilities. They are subject to biotoxin weapons and mental shredders. Also, fanatical crew destroy the relics before any boarding parties can capture them.
2. Added - Flag Bridge, which gives combat bonuses to all of the empire's ships in the system.
3. Changed - Colony ships now recieve a 60% reduction in maintenance costs.
4. Changed - Transports now recieve a 20% reduction in maintenance costs.
5. Changed - Master computers now come in 5 levels instead of 3.
6. Added - Aggressive master computers, which provide the ship with a 10% attack bonus and a 10% defense penalty.
7. Changed - Increased cost of Advanced Power Conservation from 500 to 750.
8. Added - Tower of Protection facility for magic races, which adds 15-45 shield points to all ships in the system.
9. Fixed - Psychic Scanner facilities are now Psionic Probe facilities. Psychic training facilities are now Psionic training facilities.
10. Changed - Switched organic and mineral costs of Psionic training facilities and Psionic Probe facilities.
11. Fixed - The description of the Hardy Industrialist racial trait now accurately reflects the fact that it does not apply to Temporal Space Yards.
12. Changed - Increased storage abilities of homeworld facilities from 5000 to 7500.

[ May 22, 2003, 10:34: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OK, I see http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
I guess it could also be to be able to have "bigger" leaky armor.

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Larger armor components start to defeat the leakiness. If they have too many hit points, the chance of internals being hit goes down tremendously. Hmm... I wonder what an "ultra-armor" component would do if it was, say, 100 kT and had half the hp/kT ratio of heavy armor (same scaling as light to heavy)...

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I could check out, I already wrote the excel sheet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Well it just requires one component to test it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Excel spreadsheet for what? You do realize that SJ made a program that can quickly and easily generate tech grids (even of one dimension, so 100 levels of some component, for example), right? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Yes I know.

It is just a excel sheet to calculate the average damage leaking to the non-armor component depending on the size, structure of the armor.

Well of course only in one case, so nt perfect but gives an idea.

I use 5kt shoot, and see how much the armor takes.

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

There are nearly no weapons that do only 5 damage... that isn't a very good test. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Try 50 for more accurate results. And, it is quite random, so no hard calculations will be quite correct anyways. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

I tested with component:

level A: size = 1, structure = 5 (16 comp, total 80kt)
level B: size = 4, structure = 15 (4 comp, total 60kt)
level C: size = 16, structure = 40 (1 comp, total 40kt)

It works well, each level protect better than previous one with struct/size ratio.
For 4 shoots of 5kt (total 20kt) the leaking damage to other components is:
A: 10kt
B: 8.76kt
C: 7.74kt

It should be tested with your numbers though.

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

EDIT: replace 15kt component by 10kt components http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Is it fine now? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
EDIT2: add ultra-armor test, change size of ship.
EDIT3: I'm lazy, I test only level 1 armor.
EDIT4: add"." because of space optmization

Ok, Tell me if the following configuration seems ok for you:

Ship sizes of 400
I fill 100kt with armor, the rest with 10kt struct/size components.

I use the number of your armor:
Armor A: size = 1, struct = 10
Armor B: size = 10, struct = 50
Armor C: size = 100, struct = 250

.............Armor.................Comp........... ....Ship(total)
S480-A: 100x10kt (1000kt) 30x10kt (300kt) 1300kt
S480-B: 10x50kt (500kt) .. 30x10kt (300kt) 800kt
S480-C: 1x250kt (250kt) .. 30x10kt (300kt) 550kt

I shoot 50kt shoots, up to 6.

Would that be a realistic test for you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

And yes it is possible to calculate even with randomness http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif But you know mathematics http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ May 23, 2003, 08:50: Message edited by: StarBaseSweeper ]

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Most components are 10kt/10hp. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Why don't you just use normal-type components to get more accurate results? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

What would be really good to know is what effect adding a 100 kT leaky armor that has half the hp/kT ratio of the heavy armor would have to Adamant (heavy armor has 1/2 the hp/kT ratio of light armor). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Would a BB with this "ultra" armor be significantly stronger than a BB using an equal tonnage of heavy armor?

[ May 23, 2003, 08:32: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Here is a new sneak peek to keep you interested:

Version 0.11.04:
1. Changed - Talismans now have boarding defense abilities. They are subject to biotoxin weapons and mental shredders. Also, fanatical crew destroy the relics before any boarding parties can capture them.
2. Added - Flag Bridge, which gives combat bonuses to all of the empire's ships in the system.
3. Changed - Colony ships now recieve a 60% reduction in maintenance costs.
4. Changed - Transports now recieve a 20% reduction in maintenance costs.
5. Changed - Master computers now come in 5 levels instead of 3.
6. Added - Aggressive master computers, which provide the ship with a 10% attack bonus and a 10% defense penalty.
7. Changed - Increased cost of Advanced Power Conservation from 500 to 750.
8. Added - Tower of Protection facility for magic races, which adds 15-45 shield points to all ships in the system.
9. Fixed - Psychic Scanner facilities are now Psionic Probe facilities. Psychic training facilities are now Psionic training facilities.
10. Changed - Switched organic and mineral costs of Psionic training facilities and Psionic Probe facilities.
11. Fixed - The description of the Hardy Industrialist racial trait now accurately reflects the fact that it does not apply to Temporal Space Yards.
12. Changed - Increased storage abilities of homeworld facilities from 5000 to 7500.
13. Added - Order Snafu II, which does not give the target any notification. This keeps the project useable in PBW games.
14. Changed - Spartan/Standard/Luxurious CQ now give -10/-5/0 combat modifiers instead of -7/0/+3
15. Changed - Tachyon Sensors et all now have increasing costs per level.
16. Added - Scrying tech area, which is the Magic Scanners tech area.

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Version 0.11.04 is released!

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

I honestly do not know. Making it suitable for SP cuts down on the cool stuff that is possible to do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Fyron,

will adamant be focused on PBW or is it also going to be suitable for solo play?

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

I am planning on making my armor system have 3-4 types of armor available at once that are useful. There will be cheap stuff that provides low protetion, medium stuff, and expensive stuff that provices high protection. I'm trying to determine the best way to implement this. How does this look (arbitrary values used)?
1 kT comps
1.0x HP / 1.0x resource cost
1.5x HP / 2.5x cost
2.0x HP / 5.0x cost

The strongest armor provides twice as much protection, but costs five times as much.

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

In the mod, I have Space Yard Expansion Projects, which expand the SY production rates of a planet beyond a normal SY. I am considering making them required to get good production rates by making the SY facilities have rates down at about 500 or so. What do you think?

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

Re: armor - In ADDITION to the heavy/light armor? Geez, aren't you taking this a bit too far? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif (BTW, don't duplicate the components - this is a perfect place to use mounts!)

Re: spaceyards - As long as the yards and expansions have a reasonable construction cost so you can actually build things at a decent rate! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Mounts don't let you have different component pictures though.

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We can do this Fryon, without loosing anything. We just have to make a few Compromises for the AIs sake http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

You sound right on with the below Armor and the starting SY Rate of 500; Posts.

[ June 21, 2003, 22:43: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Adamant Mod Discussion Thread (v0.14.07 released!)
 

I have a thought...(scarry) For research when in the same area IE Ion Engines, when going fron 1 to 2 to 3 have a lower point spread however when going for the next type, Jacketed have a higher amount for this, thoughts are this, making improvements to a design not as costly as building from scratch.
Just my $0.02 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif