Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

I can't say for sure but I'm pretty sure there will be no stacking at all under any circumstances. The highest available value is used.

This means the optimal design would be one "scaled armour" (can't remember the proper name) and a bunch of armoured structures. The armoured structures will take damage first (usually, since they have the higher damage resistance) and benefit from the emmissive value of the scaled armour. That will make for a damn tough ship. The only reason to have >1 scaled armour is as a backup, in case the first gets wasted by a lucky hit.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Yes, there is no stacking from different types of components. The highest value is still in Emmisive armour. You may want to have one in addition to internal armours.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Yep. I think there are several valid types of armor design, depending on what you want, who you're fighting, how large your ship is, how much design space you're willing to devote, and how much you're willing to pay.

Structure types are mainly good for giving a design a lot of ability to absorb damage, and can be very cost-effective and/or very space-effective, but doesn't guarantee protection (e.g. the bridge could still get hit on the first shot). Adding several low-tech armored structure components to a design is a cheap and effective way to give it a good level of protection.

Standard Plating is scale mounted and not hit first - its main purpose is to give a high emissive effect, deflecting a certain amount per hit. Only the highest emissive effect on an undestroyed component is used - they never add. Standard plating's potential damage deflection is effectively multiplied by the total amount of (not "hit first") structure the ship has, so it is more effective when combined with armored structure.

Special plating is scale mounted but unlike standard plating it is hit first. It offers the highest levels of emissive effect, and the highest defense bonuses, but when hit with most weapons it will get destroyed before structure, functional components, and standard plating. However, you can combine it with other hit-first armor types to prolong its life and thus multiply its effects. E.g., one or more scale-mounted emissive armor components combined with several ablative armor components.

PvK

[ February 28, 2003, 19:32: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

PvK, I have one scaled Ultra Armor Plating component that reflects 13 damage, a regenerating shield generator 1 with 175 shield points that generated 7 points per combat turn, and 3 components of Ultra armored structure (not the scaled one) that reflects 6 damage each.
Now what its suppose to happen here and which components do what and which one get hit first and which one gets destroyed first.
Because I really don't understand how this works. Maybe because I'm not very intelligent, but I'm trying to improve. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

There is always an element of dice roll what components will be destroyed first. But more or lesss documented trend is that bigger components have a higher chance to score a hit then smaller one. (reverse is true for armor and it is NOT components that have an "armor" name in description or "armor" picture but one that have "destroyed before other" as an ability. For example organic armour is armour but standard armor in Proportions is NOT. Actually it would be better if PvK remove "armour" word all together from the description of all such components and replace with "reinforced hull" or something for clarity sake)

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Norak does not design Population transports.
Reason is simple:
"must have ability 1" should be "cargo storage", not "star - unstable"
Here is modified Norak_AI_designcreation.txt
1046567994.txt

Kind of silly to load whole file because of two words http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif but it WILL help Norak AI ! Some other races may have same problem, did't check all.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, it is complicated and very unpredictable.

For a normal hit, damage is first applied to shields. Any remaining damage is then reduced by the emissive effect of the undestroyed component which has the highest emissive effect. Any damage from that hit left after that is then applied to a random "hit first" component - chosen from any "hit first" component that can be completely destroyed in one shot, if any. Then any damage remaining from that one hit after all "hit first" components have destroyed, is applied randomly against a non-hit-first component, such as functional components, armored structure and non-specialized armored plating like you chose. The random procedure for determining which one of these is hit does not choose killable-in-one-hit first, and is weighted by the size of the component. (So if your ship above is a cruiser, you'll have 220 + 3 x 210 = 850 in armor, and perhaps 600 in functional components, so the chance your first hit will strike armored structure or plating instead of anything functional is 850/(600 + 850) = 59%.

For a more complete example, say your ship has so far been unharmed, when it gets hit by eight bLasts from a Large-mounted Meson BLaster V, which does 60 points of normal damage per hit, in one turn.

The first two will be completely stopped by shields, reducing your shields 120 points, to 55.

The third hit will remove the 55 shields, and 5 hits will get through but will be deflected completely by your highest emissive rating of 13.

The fourth hit will first be reduced by your highest emissive rating of 13, to 47. If you had any "hit first" armor, it would be hit by this, but you don't, so the damage of this will start piling up against any one of the components on your ship, determined randomly but weighted proportional to the structure the component takes up on the ship. Your Ultra Armored Structure probably has the lion's share of your structure (depending on how big your ship is), so it is most likely to be hit, but not destroyed.

The remaining four hits will very probably not have hit and destroyed your armored plating, so they will all be reduced by 13 each, so your total damage will probably be 47 x 5 = 235. Assuming your armored structure was hit first, your Ultra Amored Structure will take either 210 or 240 damage per component, so if it was Mark I armor, you'll have one damaged component, or if you have Mark II armor, no damaged components (but be only 5 points away from losing one component). If you take no more damage during the battle, you might end up with no damaged components.

If your armored plating does get hit (looks like it'd be Advanced Armor Plating II if it's deflecting 13/hit), then its structure rating is proportional to your ship size. If this is a Cruiser, it can withstand 220 damage before it breaks down. If that happens, then subsequent hits will only be reduced by your highest undestroyed emissive effect (6/hit).

Next turn, if your shield generator wasn't hit, you'll get 7 points of shields. If you aren't hit again, you'll have 14 points of shields on the next turn, and so on (175 max).

That should be as clear as vector calculus now... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Thanks for the responses.
Now I have another question (sorry for so many questions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )
What would be the ideal armor composition?
Without worrying about price and weight, I would like to now if an scaled "Ultra Armor Plating I" that deflects 14 damage per hit with 4 Ablatative Armor V components that are hit-first is better than the same scaled armor with 4 of the non scaled Ultra Armor structure that deflects 6 per hit but are not hit-first.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Can I change this by hand?

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

yes, sure. Go to Proportions/pictures/races/norak
open norak_ai_designcreation.txt in wordpad or some other text editor. Find the design of population transport (use "find" option in "edit" menue, use population transport as search words, 3rd hit will point you to the actual design I think). One line should be like
must have ability1 := star - unstable
replace star - unstable with "cargo storage". Save file and start playing. It will take affect in
existing games as well. No need to start a new game.

[ March 03, 2003, 14:44: Message edited by: oleg ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Oleg, I also noticed that the Neutral Races are not colonizing, have you seen this?
In this case it was Neutral #1, the Bobrosa States.
Oh, and they were using the Starliner hull as a regular transport (and thus slower) for minelaying/sweeping and troop transport.
Though it might have been because the Starliner its avaliable first than the Medium Transport....

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

No idea. Actually I never played Proportions with neutrals. Did't see the point, why not just add one more race ?

That one particular race - turn it unto your control and check if Colonizer design exist. If not, copy and paste colonizer designs from design.txt file of the race that does make colonizers.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

OK, I think the problem is in AI_construction_vehicles.txt file. In contrast to "normal" AI, neutrals have "colonizer" entry only in explore and not connected states. If for some reason AI in any other state, it won't build colony ships. Here is my quick fix:
1046742418.txt

Replace neutral001_AI_construction_vehicles.txt with this new file. (proportions/pictures/raceneutrals/neutral001 folder. If it fixes the problem, other neutrals should have this file too !!

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Thanks Oleg! I have seen Neutrals colonizing before... I think maybe I set them up that way so that they wouldn't necessarily always keep a redundant colonizer on hand after they had colonized all the planets in their home system. But, with a couple of patches introduced since then, and in general, this may be an improvement.

As for Aloofi's follow-up question:

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It depends on what you're fighting, and what your goal is for the design. The Ultra Amored Structure will probably give you the most indestructible ship, but it costs a LOT. Ablative armor is quite affordable, and has the advantage that it is hit first, so it has to all be destroyed before you have a chance of losing a vital component like the bridge, or your combat sensors. The more expensive ship might get unlucky and be crippled by a single medium damage hit in just the right place. The armored plating though tends to go best with a lot of armored structure, or a whole ton of ablative armor. Ablative armor is also really good for combining with other hit-first types like emissive, stealth, or scattering scale-mounted armor. So, it's really a matter of what you want, how much you want to pay per ship, and what you're fighting.

PvK

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, I agree. Neutrals are nothing more than a bonus to the human player. The problem was that I realized that when I was already into the current game...... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oleg, why all transport have the star-unstable ability?
Is that the way it should be?

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks. I replaced the armored structure with Ablatative armor.
Now I have my three BattleCruisers with one scaled Ultra Armored Plating and four Ablatative armor components.
The problem was that the hits were going through my previous armor of Ultra Armored Plating and Ultra Armored Structure.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks. I'm sure this was the problem. Both Neutrals I've seen were under constant attack. The AI state probably was in short or long term defense.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oleg, why all transport have the star-unstable ability?
Is that the way it should be?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually no http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif here is why : when AI see "cargo storage" ability, it uses the component with highest value. This is fine untill it discovers "population module" or what is name ? - the big 400K module with capacity 1M. Now, it can not use standard cargo bays on troop transports, carriers, etc.

One way around is instruct AI not to research these modules at all. But I thought it is just not cool http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thus, PvK introduced special bogus ability for cargo bays I - "star unstable" Now AI can use them if you use this new ability in design_creation. There is a catch though - for AI to use transport hull design should have
"must have ability1 := cargo storage" if you replace it with "star - unstable" here, AI will not pick up transport hulls. This is all quite complicated but I think I get it sorted in my AIs and in fact it makes AI modding more exiting !

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Lol, this explanation alone gave me a headache. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
But now I know how to mess around with the AI designs....Muuuaaaaaaahhhhh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In the standard game, yes, but not so much in Proportions. Their homeworlds are as good as anyone else's and I have fought long drawn out campaigns against them, because they have to concentrate their defences in one system unlike regular empires who spread themselves thin across many systems.

True, there's nothing to stop you parking a fleet just on the wrong side of their warp point and dumping drones on them, but neutrals in proportions are by no means easy meat.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In the standard game, yes, but not so much in Proportions. Their homeworlds are as good as anyone else's and I have fought long drawn out campaigns against them, because they have to concentrate their defences in one system unlike regular empires who spread themselves thin across many systems.

True, there's nothing to stop you parking a fleet just on the wrong side of their warp point and dumping drones on them, but neutrals in proportions are by no means easy meat.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually all you need is about 6+ Carriers with 40% Fighters, 40% Fighter-Bombers some Anti ship/Base, and 20% Cluster bombers a few Troopships full off infantry. From as much as one sector away from the AI Home World. (assuming your Fighter techs is comparable to there ship/base techs).

Fighters set (Strat Menu) to engage Fighters, Sats and Ships etc. (NOT PLANETS)

Fighter Bombers set default (Optimal Range) or make your own avoiding planets as well.

Cluster Bombers also set (to Optimal range, but there only carrying Cluster bombs only and should have at least one Combat movement (preferred) slower then other fighters.
~
1st Wave: Send Fighters and Fighter/Bombers with enough Fighter Bombers (some fighters also if AI CVs are present) to defend the fleet. (Fleet remains on station with relative impunity about a sector away) This wave should take out most to all Bases and Ships the AI has over its home world. How ever you may loose a great deal of your Fighter bombers, unless you avoid engaging planets with them as well. In that wave.

2nd Wave: Launch but do NOT send Cluster bombers with first wave. Time that wave to attack the turn after the first wave. You should have Fighter cover left from the previous turns attack for your cluster bombers. (keep a careful eye on any reinforcement the AI may bring to bare and strike there ships with Fighter-bombers from afar).

Third turn:
With the right amount of cluster bombers getting thru to the Planet (Observe that battle report and/or check the planets Last Unit cargo) you should now be ready to send in your main body with Troop Ships and a few Thousand Infantry (Fleet orders Capture Planet), be sure to have transports from the Home System ferrying troops on a regular bases, it may take in access of 6000-10000 infantry to capture a Home World in fair order.

[ March 04, 2003, 14:56: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The problem is that you can be at war with them for a long time and they can't attack you outside their system. That's the main issue I see with Neutrals.

On the other hand, is true that their defenses are impresive. I haven't attacked a regular AI Homeworld yet, so i can't compare, but it took me 3 assaults and 3 years of blockade to take the Bobrosa States Homeworld. They had over 60 WP including Medium sized ones. At the end I only conquered them when I retrofited 10 of my Destroyers as PDCs, and 2 as Fast Troop Carriers. Their weakness was in that the mayority of their WP were Missiles.
I will mess the AI design files so they build more WP with Meson BLasters.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, I agree. Neutrals are nothing more than a bonus to the human player. The problem was that I realized that when I was already into the current game...... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Maybe it would be fun to mod the neutrals so they have special techs.. something like the master of orion guardian. problem would be that there can't be a tech-reward for destroying them
Maybe you could let them have a couple of special buildings on their homeworld that you could capture, a ship training facility that trains upto 40% or something.. anyhow just some ideas..

Henk

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That sounds like an epic battle!

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nah, that would be just more bonus for the human player. In any case, I would make them more unrewarding than they are now.
Basicly, the current game is the Last game I'll play with Neutrals. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That sounds like an epic battle!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This won't work with an experienced Proportions Human player so be on gaurd in multiplayer, he will launch from his planet first on your fleet taking out EVERY THING!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

So park outside your intended target system and send a SCOUT (always scout first, scout everything if not just to keep him guessing)
(Waist a scout so you can count the planets fighter reserves first) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
And if you catch the Human napping; with not enough Home World Fighter reserves and low Point-Defense on WPs!
1,2,3 maybe 4 and with so little income with the Home World Blockaded and Contested: it's OVER http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Send me the subjugation papers and where do I sign. So sad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ March 04, 2003, 17:05: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
~
Actually this sounds like the USA position now, with so many of our Fighter Groups abroad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

[ March 04, 2003, 17:27: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

No matter how you stack umm, its tuff to beat PvKs Proportions many options of Play.
I believe that is why this Mod will endure.!
And to most that play Proportions, is the GAME from the GAME.

[ March 04, 2003, 16:07: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

See that, for over a year some have been trying to get me to Post.

Now, I can’t stop.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

My current game is in turn 123, and yesterday I did an AI design check, and it turns out that the Cue Cappa AI have small troops with infantry weapons, and every single ship have the master Computer component that cost 4000 minereals!
And still they are ranking number 2 in scores....

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is certainly an bug in their design_creation file, JLS should fix it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed. IMHO this is how 4X games are supposed to be played- Once you've tried Proportions, there's no going back. I have some unmodded multiplayer games going and they just don't interest me any more. Proportions though... this is how it should be.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I will look into the Master Computer for Cue Cappa………....
ALOOFI, If you notice the Cue Cappa does NOT ask for Master Computer in its design file!
Is the Cue Cappa the Only AI race that is using Master Computer in your Proportions game. What are the other AI races in your game?

I believe Oleg brought this to PvK attention in a earlier post, if you follow this thread down. It may be a related v1.84 SE4 patch, if so PvK will have to make some upgrade changes (Difficult for Pvk to keep up with some SE4 patches in regards to breaking long standing games) this may be taking care of in Proportions 3.00.

In regards to score, ALOOFI; BUILD MORE SHIPS, BASES and/or Star liners and Colony ships and this will drive your score up in your Proportions game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 05, 2003, 17:07: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This is certainly an bug in their design_creation file, JLS should fix it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bug in my Design file, I think not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Troop A/K/A~AFV
Tested GO: in AI simulated troop unit weapons test :
Wooow that tank looks GOOOD http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Further design tests:
AFV
Primary weapon =AFV Telekinetic Projector :GO
Backup Primary Weapon=Small Arms : GO (See note for backup *)
* Same as existing Terran, Xi Chun and other Design files possible future expansion possibilities!

Further Research versus AI Weapons Call Check: GO
1: AFV Telekinetic Projector (Weapon Family := 3113) : GO
Tech Area Req 1 := Psychic Weapons
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Tech Area Req 2 := Smaller Weapons
Tech Level Req 2 := 1
Tech Area Req 3 := Troops
Tech Level Req 3 := 1

Existing Research tree for Cue Cappa in correct order: GO

Psychic Weapons : GO

Smaller Weapons : GO

Troops : GO

Himmm???? I still can’t find or duplicate your situation?

What point game is it 2k,3k,5k? and did you shut any tech areas down?
~
Also on a curious note, what level research is your setup.? With only 123 turns elapsed seems kind of a short span to get to Troops that soon. Troop is about 25% down the research tree. Not to mention Computers even further down the that tree.

[ March 05, 2003, 16:56: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Side note: If Proportion 2.53 is not set up for v1.84 SE4 patch as Oleg mentioned earlier, my question is this.
1: Would you rather your AI NOT have Advanced computer facilities so they do not load Master Computer.
2: or AI HAVE Advanced computer facilities and do load Master Computer.

My answer is 2 HAVE, the benefits in Advanced Computers out way the use of Master Computers on the ships. True most design files are not optimized for the Master Computers as they are but in them self have some ship benefits, don’t you agree.

At least until PvK ketches up to the v1.84 SE4 Patch. Between work, raising a family, other hobbies; Play testing the patch as it applies to Proportions and then actually releasing it.

[ March 05, 2003, 17:31: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Oh, I'm afraid I did shut down severals tech.
Psychic
Religious
Temporal
Stellar Manipulation
and Warp tech

And only 2000 racial points.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thats it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
you shut down Psychic....
~
No prob http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 05, 2003, 17:26: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

I also lowered the research points needed for Troops and fighters to about half.
And I eliminated the self-destruct device, added Heavy Infantry betwwen Infantry and Elite Infantry, plus some 20 more little changes, like Quantum Reactors to a max of 20 000 supplies instead of endless, warships hulls desproportionaly higher price as they get bigger, etc.
But I didn't touch the Master Computer... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you mean that if I shut down psychic the Psychic races will always go for that pricey Master Computer?
I checked the Amonkrie and they were doing fine. The only bad thing I saw was a Shipyard ship with a Battlecruiser hull instead of the far cheaper Medium Transport hull.
Is there anything I can do to fix that without messing the current game?

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

The Master Computer thing is a problem for the AI, not just in Proportions but in Gold Patch 3. MM's hard-coded change to always use MC assumes that's always a good idea, and it isn't.

It's sort of like the phased shields thing. Someone mentioned an AI was using unphased shields and getting killed by his PPB's... there's no perfect solution, because there is no way to program the AI to _adapt_ to enemy deployments. At least in Proportions PPB's are a major research (and resource) investment to get the very effective Versions, and the AI will eventually use phased shields.

Master Computers are generally not worth the high expense except maybe with very large ships, even in the unmodded game. Unless, of course, there are allegiance subverters around, in which case they can be indispensible. Their complete block of subverter weapons makes a solution even harder. Unless/until we get a change from MM, we're left with either disadvantaging all AI, or disadvantaging all psychics. I'd probably choose the latter, perhaps by giving AI some racial tech which makes designs immune at a lower cost than an MC. Unless someone knows of a way to increase resistance to subverters (more/stronger vehicle control components?).

Troops (AFV) shouldn't be allowed to put "small arms" components on them - humans can't do it. If the AI are managing to do so, it's a minor bug, but not IMO a big deal, since the AI could generally use a boost compared to human skills at deploying troops. It's not an very big advantage, since they have to develop AFV's to get it anyway, and it's not really superior to using AFV components, except somewhat at certain tech levels, perhaps.

PvK

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you mean that if I shut down psychic the Psychic races will always go for that pricey Master Computer?
I checked the Amonkrie and they were doing fine. The only bad thing I saw was a Shipyard ship with a Battlecruiser hull instead of the far cheaper Medium Transport hull.
Is there anything I can do to fix that without messing the current game?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In regards to troops the Cue Cappa are designed for Psychic weapons in proportions as are the ships and some Facilities, so if you shut down Psychic they will be unable to receive their Psychic Components, Weapons and Facilities for there units, ships and Bases.
~
Same applies with any Components, Weapon and Facilities for Races on the other techs you may have shut down:
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Note: Amonkrie has NO racial traits “Race Opt 1 Num Advanced Traits := 0” but they will be unable to research Stellar Manipulation if they get the opportunity. The way you have it currently set.
~
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In regards to Master Computers that may be explained in my previous few Posts on that topic.

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Do you mean that if I shut down psychic the Psychic races will always go for that pricey Master Computer?
I checked the Amonkrie and they were doing fine. The only bad thing I saw was a Shipyard ship with a Battlecruiser hull instead of the far cheaper Medium Transport hull.
Is there anything I can do to fix that without messing the current game?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In regards to Master Computers that may be explained in my previous few Posts on that topic.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Aloofi,
View PvKs post who posted a much clearer answer. At the same time I was posting.

[ March 05, 2003, 18:01: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed,
However, what is to be done with the older designs. That want Computer Facilities in there Research Files? As it currantly set up.

PS: I did not mean to stir a hornets nest/
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 06, 2003, 00:05: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Thanks for the answers.
About the Master Computer, what if I lower the price for it to, let's say, 1000 minerals instead of 4000?
Of course, the ships will still have a big combat penalty.....

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

Re: Master Computer use by the AI in 1.84

I should probably make a patch to try to address this, but it won't be easy, as I don't see a solution that doesn't have undesirable side-effects. That is, either all AI will be at a significant disadvantage (the current situation), or all Psychic empires will (if I make MC's cheap and lower their combat penalties). Best for newly-started games would probably be to split the computer tech area so that MC's are an option that AI's can avoid researching.

Unless anyone sees a better answer.

PvK

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed:
If you revise the MC's as you say, and add a Tech level for just MC's tree to the bottom of Tech area that wouldn’t break or that adversely effect currant games, would it? (except Human Players that did not get computers before the update)
The AI probably would just retro fit to there intended designs soon enough if within retro fit rules?

[ March 06, 2003, 04:55: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The only way I see is either to lower the range percentages of the subverters or to strengthen the defense values (lower the to-hit-chances). It is not comparable with damaging weapons.

A bit off topic (I mean out of this specific question):
Medium Transporters with SY components. I have not yet found an AI race using this cheap solution, at least they don't use it in the later states of a game 60-100 years.
My question to PvK, was it even intended? If so, I think some AI ship designs could be improved by this, if not, I guess the cargo capabilities of SY components will be removed soon (3.00 Foundations).

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The only way I see is either to lower the range percentages of the subverters or to strengthen the defense values (lower the to-hit-chances). It is not comparable with damaging weapons.

A bit off topic (I mean out of this specific question):
Medium Transporters with SY components. I have not yet found an AI race using this cheap solution, at least they don't use it in the later states of a game 60-100 years.
My question to PvK, was it even intended? If so, I think some AI ship designs could be improved by this, if not, I guess the cargo capabilities of SY components will be removed soon (3.00 Foundations).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is safe to say that it was intended. Otherwise, PvK would never have added the Cargo ability to SY components. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

SYs on Medium Transports allows you to do remote mining earlier, which is actually useful in Proportions (unlike the standard game).

Re: Proportions Mod Versions 2.5.2 and 2.5.3 available
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You are right, that is an obvious sign http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
In this case, I am going to observe some of the earlier AI ship designs to probably increase AI profitabilities.