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Very good idea. Current cost is 300 rad (lvl 5). maybe raise it to 500 (equal to its min cost) and leave everything else as is (well, maybe reduce it's lvl 1 and lvl2 ranges, as suggested earlier...) |
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I have made no pretentions about my opinion that the game as is is acceptable in it's current form. I don't deny that. But I also have never pretended that the game is any way what I would call "perfect". The reason I brought all this to the front, I was the impetus for this thread after all even if I didn't make the first post, was that I was frankly tired of the constant complaining about the perceived lack of balance and the perceived lack of support on the part of Malfador to do anything to resolve it. My goal was to motivate some of you that have been at the forefront of complaining about the problem to actually do something about fixing it rather then waiting for soemone else to do it. Quote:
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Very good idea. Current cost is 300 rad (lvl 5). maybe raise it to 500 (equal to its min cost) and leave everything else as is (well, maybe reduce it's lvl 1 and lvl2 ranges, as suggested earlier...)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What I got from his post, and from previous conversations he has been involved in, was that he disagrees with both of us and thinks it's balanced sufficently as it is by the higher mineral and rad values. And that if we decrease the combat strength of the weapon we should also decrease the costs accordingly. I think most people would feel that combination of changes would be at best neutral. Geoschmo |
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Meson BLaster is a good weapon. It is better than the PPB if your opponent has no unphased shields, except perhaps at range 1, but often not much fleet combat is firing at range 1. It is better than PPB because it is cheaper, and more versatile for designs. On ships with multiplex tracking, it is also better because there is less damage per shot, meaning less wasted damage on overkill.
APB XII, MB V+, and PPB II+ are three of the best all-around weapons in the unmodded game. In surverying all the many other weapons in the game, many of them are much less effificent. Quibbling about how MB should be better is missing the point, unless you're abandoning the other weapons as too much work to even think about. My current suggestion: APB - Slightly reduce damage at highest levels (low levels are weak enough) MB - leave alone PPB - smooth improvement rate (as in SJ post), increase research cost significantly, increase resource cost a bit Grav Hellbore - skip all shields, perhaps increase damage Ripper Beam - Ok as is, though they could have more damage and less range (more like SE3, but not necessary) Incinerator - Increase damage Wave Motion Gun - maybe increase damage Torpedo - increase damage and/or accuracy (do not make ROF 1) Energy Magnifier, Acid Globule, Enveloping Acid Globule, etc - make sure torpedo and Graviton Hellbore improvements don't make these weapons obsolete. Seekers - use the new Settings.txt ability from Last patch to give seekers a defensive to-hit bonus. PD - reduce to-hit bonus to +30 Fighters - increase defensive bonus by perhaps 20 or so. Massive Planetary Shield - shields x20 or more PvK |
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Spoon did have a good point. Changing the cost of PPB by a little bit is NOT going to go anywhere near actually improving the balance of the game to be better than it is now. Some big changes (according to your scale, not mine) have to be made, or this is all pointless.
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HEM <-> WMG for example. As for the WMG, I think a range increase would be best, (considering the scale changes from SE3 they should have about 14-16 range)... Its a low damage, slow reload artillery beam, really. Problem is APBs have 8 range too. |
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In regards to PDC being to strong, maybe instead of reducing, just add a random miss modifier of say 10-15%, that way you do not always hit but have a chance of missing, this along with increaseing the size/capacity of ftrs in med and large level make this more balance IMHO. Or with ftrs you could reduce the size of their components to fit more in.
Hellbore, maybe small increase in damage, but increase range and have it firer every 2 turns instead of 3, this would give it more meaning to use. Also in regards to PD vs seekers/ftrs/missles, the way it currently is PD's are not the only things that can target these types. Suggestion, make PD's only good against them with no other weapons being able to target them, or some type of llimit on the other weapons that can also target these. Later in games, in SP play, PD's are worthless because the other weapons can fire at the seeekers/ftrs/sats as well as other ships, therefore why use them? Point I'm trying to make, either limit seekers/ftrs/sats to only be fired on by PDC's, eliminate other weaspons having these capabilities, or at least cutting back on other weapons that have these capabilities. just some ideas Mac |
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Mac, the random miss modifier would be lowering its inate to hit bonus. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
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where is the thread at right now? i am not realy going to read through the whole 11 pages, but i myself had been considering such a mod for some time. if theres one being made, i'll give a hand.
What do you have so far? what is being discussed now? |
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would you guys like my personal list of What To Do To Balance Everything?
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One topic for balancing that I've not seen is shields vs armor. Armor has less hp/kt than shields at a moderate level and has to be repaired too. Armor I,II,III is 3, 3.5, 4 hp/kt, IIRC, and the shields far outstrip this. Making armor more worthwhile might balance PPB without having to make large changes there as well.
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I like PvK's ideas on the APB/MB/PPB. I also agree with upping the damage of torpedoes or adding to-hit for them. On the WMG, I agree with SJ. I like the idea of a long-range sniping, but bulky, expensive and slow-firing, DR weapon.
Can't really say much about the other weapons since I haven't played with them. The PD nerf seems a bit much though, considering the defensive bonuses PvK suggests to fighters and seekers. I do agree that PD to-hit should be reduced, but not to Proportions-levels http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I think the nerf should be to fleet / ship training since that is where it is really unbalancing. It should be way harder to build and research those facilities. And of course, PvK's ideas about making racial combat bonuses way more expensive are good too. And oh, I'd really like an increased range for Tractor Beams too, please. I want to be able to pull the pesky hard-to-hit, always stay at max-range ships in close to bLast them. Finally, as SJ keeps reminding us, there other things besides combat in SEIV that need rebalancing too. Climate Control Facilities do need to work faster, facilities that improve production of one specific resource should be better than those that improve all three resources etc. BTW, I take it that fighters / drones receive racial / cultural combat bonuses, but do seekers receive defensive bonuses from these factors? |
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Just some thoughts on other neglected tech areas...
Biology - Nobody researches this one, maybe they would if it gave some facilities that increased population growth rate and happiness (like the Organic races have), or smaller and cheaper life support components for ships? Planetary Weapons - A lot of the weapons in here are really cool (Planetary Napalm does massive damage, but only to planets, Smartbombs seek out spaceports and resupply depots, Neutron Bombs kill population even quicker than plagues, Radiation Bombs prevent population from growing - why isn't there any "Only Planet Value" damage type??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif now THAT would be useful! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) but nobody seems to use them much... wonder what could be done? The tech's pretty cheap already... Also, there are a bunch of techs that are way too cheap - once you research their often arduous prerequisites (if they have prerequisites), you can blow through each level of the techs in one turn - this goes for things like Point Defense, Advanced Military Science, Warp Weapons, Gravitational Weapons, Phased Energy Weapons, Ship Capture, Explosive Warheads, Smaller Weapons, Tractor/Repulser Weapons, etc. - just doubling the cost of these fields would make the game more interesting, with a more diverse spread of technology (one empire might have PPB II, another might have PPB IV) Oh, and maybe more levels of progression for the fighter/troop weapons would help - as it is, there's a BIG jump from, say, DUC I to DUC II - the damage and range both double! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Not to mention the fact that you need to research Fighters to get Small DUC's while all other Small weapons come from the Smaller Weapons tech area... did someone change his mind while designing the tech tree? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif One more thing with smaller weapons... the Ground Cannon is nice, but does it HAVE to be the uber troop weapon so you don't even think of putting other weapons on your troops? Maybe if it were 4kT instead of 3 then you'd think twice about it... or if it cost a whole lot compared to other troop weapons... |
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ok, here it goes. i'll just make a list of all weapons in SE
NORMAL APB - this weapon is almost fine. it is a general all-purpose weapon in the game, and is outclassed in different areas by other weapons. it however outranges most other weapons. the range should be capped at 6, and base rad cost doubled. CSM - ehrm, the weapon is fine. it is however easily shot down by PDC - which should be the way it is because PDC are the only counter you have. It could use a 10kT reduction though. MB - the only thing is adding another 5 damage points to it, making it +5 per level instead of the current skipping of the damage addition at 2nd level. Torpedoes - now that is a whole different subject. That is supposed to be the main weapon of capital warships. The damage 100 is good. Range should be increased to 8 and a +20% accuracy to anti-matter and +30% accuracy to Quantum. +50% cost because the weapon becomes very powerful. Plasma Missile - absolutely fine in my book - only thing is it realy requires at least some defense against PDC - 5% ECM per level? PDC - thats a tricky one. i'll leave it for later because it needs some testing. Plague Bomb - okay PPB - -10 all damage, and thats it. WMG - fine TPC - with its high cost and reload time it should be a viable weapon. +10 to damage. ID - i think its just fine the way it is. It should not, however, be possible to mount this weapon because a heavy mount simply destroys ALL engines. Ionic Pulse Missile - a big question? it should be made to do exactly 120 damage to destroy all engines - to compensate for ID. Perharps extra speed or ECM bonus (or both) to make it more viable as a weapon. PN - completely fine NB - completely fine, though it might be moved down the tech tree, to go along the PN and RB. RB - absolutely fine Smart bombs - no complaints whatsoever, a good weapon for high costs. Repulsor - fine Tractor - fine, though a longer-ranged, less-potent Version as suggested before is good GH - another big one. Personally i think its an average weapon, all it could use is a mediocre to-hit bonus of, say, 15%-20% Wormhole beam - too high on research tree! physics 4??!! how about Astrophysics 3 instead? SDepleter - its a good weapon! should however have a slight to-hit penalty to compensate for extreme damage. or double kT, with a non-mountable Version of it as-is. SDistruptor - im sorry, but this one is completely useless - only good in point-blank. current damage is 60-45-30-15. How about 80-60-60-40, and without mounting? Boarding - fine! DUC - fine! NSP - well, the gun is okay. i'd like to see at least a 10k research base for it. whats that, it is easier to research an NSP than a meson bLaster??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif Alternate Bombs Idea: you get Napalm with the vanilla tech tree. from Physics 1 you get rad bomb on levels 1-5. from Military Science 1 you get Neutron Bomb on levels 3-7. From Computers 2 you get Smart Bombs at levels 5-7. RACIAL Organic Plasma - good Lightning - good Parasite - good. should get half the bonus of CSM Acid - unlike Torpedoe there is no reason for seeking here. However it might be more destructive - how about +50% damage? Crystallurgy Shard - well, its a general weapon. its good enough, but could benefit from +5 damage on all levels. HEM - pardon me? give me one reason to choose this weapon over its alternative - Tachyon Cannon. how about Quad Damage to Shields? also a to-hit of +10% would do good to balance this gun out. Crystalline Torpedo - the best solution i can see is double/triple its damage resistance. 45 damage is not much. Energy dampener - fine Temporal TDB - a fine weapon! Temporal Shifter - good, but a fine racial weapon Shield Accelerator - while a powerful weapon, it is not much better than SD and more difficult to research. aswell, a good thing for the 1500RP Tachyon Cannon - a fine gun there Psychic TKP - debatable, but a fine gun Mental Flailer - a fine gun AS - debatable. i say leave it as-is. MSG - a fine gun Religious Talisman - a very debatable topic. i'll give it more thinking and post something tomorrow. |
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50% orbitrary? basicly its a drone. and drones get 50%.
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Allright, I have a suggestion. Let's rephrase that and call it a comment, because I am not actually suggesting we do it. I merely want to get people's impressions of it as an idea.
The "Nerf the PPB" party has some valid points. PPB is too strong and too easy to research. It dominates the midgame and only is a little less effective then the APB late game, and then only at very long range. Frankly I have never faced a late game APB opponent that scared me unless they also had the talisman. Because at the range where the APB has a clear advantage it's not really very easy to hit anything. And it's not all that difficult to close with the enemy and get into range where the PPB is better. So basically the weapons at that point I consider equal, even though on papaer a case can be made for the APB. I think in the end game other factors do a lot more to determine victory then whether you have PPB or APB on you ships. Making the PPB a niche weapon I believe is too much of a change. It has been a mainline weapon for too long to put that particular genie back in the bottle. So what if we approach the problem from another angle? Many suggestions have been made to soften the advantages of the PPB but keep it a valid mainline weapon. The main objection to these appears to be that they don't do enough considering the PPB ability to skip normal shields. Well frankly the fact that they skip shields is almost irrelevant anymore. Because the dominance of the PPB has almost obsoleted shields to begin with. And yet people still use the PPB becasue they are a good weapon even without the shield skipping ability. So what if we took the shield skipping ability away? Ok, pick your jaw back up off the floor and think about it for a minute. Yes, it removes the distinctivness of the PPB, but how distinctive is it anyway if noone uses normal shields? It remains a valid mainline weapon so we don't have to redesign all the AI that use it. Shields become more usefull in the mid game. We can still tweak the PPB values so the MB isn't such a weakling mid game. We can still have niche weapons that do skip normal shields and have a lower damage level. Wait a minute while I light my cigarette... Ok, commence firing... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Geoschmo |
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Shields vs armor have been like this since SE3, where the ratio was even worse. 4 armor points vs 24 standard shields vs 32 phased shields IIRC.
Adding 3 new levels of Standard armor with very minor additional benefits (as well as moving it to the bottom of the list in components.txt) would help the AI by allowing it to use all types of armor with calls from the design creation file. Armor is a cheap, early game option. I do like the idea of balanced armor vs shields (see P&N for proof) However, consider all of the scifi to date... In those that had shields, was the armor ever even comparable in strength? |
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Geoschmo |
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Another option to balance armor - increase EA effect. If we also reduce the benefit of mounts, it can make high-damage, low reload weapons like WMG and torpedos much more valuable than say APB or PPB !
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But Armor takes ten kilotonnes of space for forty kilotonnes of protection. Emissive Armor give you fifty kilotonnes of protection and thirty kilotonnes of a sort of recharging protection for twenty kilotonnes of space. That's pretty worth while. Unless you're facing a crystalline or NSP opponent Armor is a good thing. And it rocks on Weapon Platforms. If Weapon Platforms are hit in order of placement, and I believe they are, then putting a few cheap 100% Armor WPs on a planet means the badum has to dish out serious damage before the shooting WPs or Relic/Sensor WPs are even touched. Shield WPs do the same, but are so much more expensive (take longer to build). I think it takes the third level of Phased Shielding to beat out Armor for protection/kilotonne. And on Units, unless I am mistaken, Armor piercing is a moot point. The unit is not impaired until all its components are destroyed, so the Armor piercing still has to deliver the whole sum of the damage, while Shield piercing does not. Since the components do not need repair, the Armor could be said to recharge, just like Shields, and the only advantage to Shields over Armor in a Unit is the greater protection/kilotonne offered by higher level shielding, which is expensive and takes a long time to get. I'm not sure on what the dividing lines are, but I'm thinking that it's Late Game before I'm putting Phased Shields on Weapon Platforms. [ July 25, 2003, 15:44: Message edited by: Loser ] |
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I really think Armor is fine as it is. It is useful in it's time. That people fail to take advantage of this feature does not mean that the feature is unbalanced or nerfed, simply that its merit is undiscovered. Do experienced PBW players avoid the use of Armor and Emissive Armor? Am I just naive for thinking that it is a great component? This is possible... [ July 25, 2003, 15:46: Message edited by: Loser ] |
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I thought the PPB skip didn't work only on Units for which Phased Shield are not provided in the game, Fighters and Troops, as opposed to Weapon Platforms, Satellites, and Drones, for which Phased Shields are provided. [edit: Quote:
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If even the basic armor was improved some in HP, maybe by 10hp/level, then this also might help guns like MB, since the space they take up is 10kt less than APB or PPB leaving room for armor. Point of this is to make armor competitive in the late game, when all it is really used for is defense bonuses. If you made unused weapons like GHB or maybe high level torpedoes armor skipping, it would increase the values of all these underused techs, without having to mess too much with everyone's favorite guns. Emmisive armor would also have to be adjusted to keep it up with regular armor.
Also, would it be possible to increase the cloaking amount on stealth armor at its highest level to preventing EM active/passive 2? I saw someone pointing out that Hyper-Optics was too cheap, and this might help out. Macjimmy |
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I thought the PPB skip didn't work only on Units for which Phased Shield are not provided in the game, Fighters and Troops, as opposed to Weapon Platforms, Satellites, and Drones, for which Phased Shields are provided. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I am pretty sure about this. See, the "blue bar" for a satellite, same as for the fighter, is a decoration. When you add a shield to the unit, its "red bar" - structure, jumps by the same amount of points as the "blue bar". Does not matter, phased or not. Same for the planet with WP. I might be wrong of course and I did't check it for drones. |
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Any other comments on the Hellbores, Torpedoes and High energy weapons?
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Geo -
Before I go into nitpicky detail to explain myself, let me assure you I never meant my comments as a personal affront, and apologize if I came off sounding that way. Quote:
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think this earlier post sums up my position, so I don't see how you can say my goal is to have generic weapon non-choices: Quote:
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Geoschmo |
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Maybe give the Skips Shields (unphased) ability to the Hellbore in exchange? |
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For example, reducing the damage of the PPB by 10 across the board (I'm not suggesting this, though it might be worth considering) is what I would call a major change. Reducing the range at level 1 and 2 is a minor change. Some weapons need a major change, I think. |
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I would just like to add my vote for extended range and a little more oomph (damage) for the torpedoes. It would be wonderful if they were a viable alternative to the beam weapons. I think your idea about the PPB's, Geo, has exactly the right intent - it's the shield skipping ability that brings the PPB to "uberweapon" status. I'll bet PPB's would still be used anyway (it's got a good damage ratio), and it would restore shields as a good early game option. We could do away with phased shields, then, and have a more gradual build-up of shield points over the entire range of shield levels (instead of ignoring them until shields level six, you could get started right away). I do understand the goal of making minimal changes, though, so the general reduction of PPB by 10 points across the board might be just enough to make the other weapons viable mid-game options. Good luck with the mod, SJ, this is an excellent idea! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
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For torps and HE weapons, I still like my suggestions, and also like the recent ideas mentioned: Torps having increased to-hit, damage, and cost. (right now they are quite cheap, especially at low levels) The idea to increase WMG range is one I like. Currently it's +30 to-hit bonus does give it some value at range compared to APB, but it is really weak in terms of damage/ROF/size, so a range bonus would make it more unique and interesting. PvK |
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You might want to start with deciding what to do specifically to the PPB (most people seem to want to do something), then balance the APB based on the new PPB. Then the MB. Then the DUC. (Might well be some of these will require no change at all...) And so on. Then, after every weapon has been examined, go back and look at them again... |
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Not sure if it was mentioned but I would like a few component types broken down into smaller kt sizes to fill in that Last 5kt of space. Supply, Cargo, PDC, and maybe other guns might be good for this.
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Remove PPB's phased concept, making them and Phased shields pointless (except for Phased Shield V)?
Like many of the ideas, it would be an interesting mod variant, but it's a design change rather than a balance adjustment. The phased/unphased shield feature is a good one, I think. The problem is not that feature - it's that the PPB, designed as a counter-measure to normal shields, is so good that it's a counter-measure to everything. That's a balance problem. What I get from the wish for PPB and MB to compete with APB, is that these are three of the best all-around weapons, and players do want to have a variety of non-racial ROF 1 main weapons, with trade-offs at different ranges. Again, seems to me that the answer to this is: * PPB must have a phased effect. Otherwise you're throwing out an interesting game element to get a generic weapon, and will have to re-do the shield components. That's not balance - it's redesign (and ill-considered, IMO). * PPB should have some disadvantage compared to all weapons that don't skip normal shields. This could be in the form of significant expense, reduced firepower, or reduced accuracy. * If you think MB needs to be improved, then I don't think you've run enough cost/effect analysis of other weapons which are harder to get, such as racial normal-damage ROF 1 weapons. * If there is a strong desire for a slightly better MB-like weapon, or an unphased weapon that's otherwise like the PPB, I'd suggest looking at some of the Racial tech weapons which already fit into these categories. They tend to be not so efficient as-is, and their racial requirement somewhat justifies them having some advantage over non-racial weapons. PvK |
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[ July 26, 2003, 00:23: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
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damage resistance. That wouldn't make them harder to hit, but harder to destroy. Geoschmo |
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Geoschmo |
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Even in cases where the ship HAD shields. And then there're things like the Defiant -- federation ship, very strong shields, but also solid armor plating, too. |
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The only reason we are calling it a mod at all is for brevity. And if the changes are not accepted by malfador they will be the start of a decent balance mod, not neccesarily the finish of one. Fyron, you of all people should be happy about this. It was your incessant complaining that was the primary reason for this project being suggested in the first place. If you cannot compromise on any point and will not accept any changes that fall short of your narrow definition of balance and prefer to do nothing constructive and simply continue complaining you are free to do that. We only ask that you do it in another thread and let those of us that are more reasonable alone to actually try to get something done. Geoschmo |
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That was a rather condescending and offensive post Geo...
As we can see, I have posted plenty of constructive things in this thread. I have shown absolutely no unwillingness to compromise anywhere... [ July 26, 2003, 03:35: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ] |
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hmm geo, i actually havent read your first post http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif
for more basic changes, we just need to fix the wrong things - thats the talisman, the torpedo, the ppb and the pdc. thats about it? others are changes for mods, i'd say. |
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SJ, how about stating some boundaries that this project should not cross/things we shouldn't touch. This may streamline the debating a bit more.
For instance, in regards to weapons, what fields are ok to tweak (ie range) and not to tweak (ie resource costs). I think one of the earlier Posts which listed each of the weapons we're considering adjusting in a neat little table to be a good starting point. How about we list every weapon in the game (excluding missles, tractor/repulsor), even the ones we aren't planning to adjust, and start from there, tackling each weapon one at a time. Sorry if this is redundant, but I like what SJ is proposing and want to see it come through smoothly. Geo, Fyron, think happy thoughts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
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I really think most of the MB's perceived problems are just from an unfair comparison to the PPB. Geoschmo P.S. Katchoo. Hommmmm, Hommmmmm.. I'm going to my happy place.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif [ July 26, 2003, 04:29: Message edited by: geoschmo ] |
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