Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I am not experienced with Dom II yet (darn demo is all I have right now) but I do know that game balance - especially in a wargame this deep - is an ongoing process. There isn't any way the developers can test every scenario themselves, and thus the community of players (and this forum in particular) has a great deal to do with presenting things to the developers they might not have seen/thought of before.

Patch 2.08 is soon to arrive, and there's no sign that patches will be grinding to a halt after its release. Furthermore, it seems to me (from reading a lot of the threads in this forum) that Illwinter is a very "populist" developer - that is to say, they appear to take all suggestions quite seriously.

In my opinion, something doesn't need to be completely broken in order to be in need of a little bit of tweaking. TC is probably viable, but could be more so. Again, I'm speaking from gaming experience as a whole, not from specific experience with Dom II.

[ February 16, 2004, 02:26: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

IW has a good tract record for trying to fix things; whether or not they think all suggestions are warranted is another matter entirely. I couldn�t say that any or all of the suggestions people give would even get the attention the original poster desires, but if you provide a good argument it would be hard to imagine they wouldn�t.

Some things are just outside of the realm of possibility at current and other things they are just stubborn about.

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They do, but as you just alluded to, the crux of the matter is whether they agree that TC needs some serious tweaking. I know this has been discussed quite a bit in this forum over the past few weeks, but I don't recall seeing IW weigh in on the matter. If they don't agree, my point about modding any desired changes may end up being the way to go.

Perhaps you'd care to do a Zen mod for TC?

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

I'm waiting for the full Mod tools before I try to do a Mod. I'd rather be able to do everything than halfway because of the limitations of the Mod Tools.

This is, more than likely, the best way to try to show implemented changes and their effect. Akin to Cherry's Scale Mod.

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

What you say makes perfect sense, on that topic. This thread was about the detail of Conscription, though, rather than overall TC balance. If that's lacking, it would be more important. I can't comment all that much on Tien Chi balance since I haven't tried them myself yet. A few random things I have seen:

Tien Chi commanders aren't technically the only ones who suffer speed 1 strategic. (Ulmish Guardian commanders, maybe Arco hoplite commanders (?) ... ) But ya it would be good to know IW's reason for this, or else perhaps to change it.

Tien Chi AI came and steamrollered my Arco when I was trying to build up a Natajara SC. They had over a dozen celestial giants of some sort which were quite hard to deal with. Just one example, and it sounds like it may be atypical.

I had a Tien Chi mercenary group of about 20 armored horse archers, and they were very effective with simple Fire orders. They'd kill the enemy with arrows until they arrived, and then kill those that made it through the arrows, in melee. I agree though that like most non-lance/knight cavalry, they would be better with better AI/orders options, especially if there were a way to get them and other light skirmishers to actually skirmish - i.e. harrass with missiles, and avoid (back away from) any melee where they are at a disadvantage.

PvK

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well perhaps I just look at it a different way. If the Base and Themes of a race is determined to be sufficiently out of alignment enough to need a balance change, then it moves logically for me to look at the improvements that are common to all themes and improve them while retaining the original intention.

Since Conscription is only Order based and is only usable by the base nation, it's priority is low, though it's intention was to provide more thematic flavor. If Conscription is changed not to balance the nation (which it will be regardless, every nuance impacts it, even in the slightest degree) then it has to be looked at and possibly adjusted later if the commonality between the base and themes is changed to put it in better 'balance'.

I agree that something should be done to Conscription at some point and time, as it is just something that you don't consider when choosing your nation. And if Peter's suggestion is implemented, fantastic. But I would rather have the entire nation viewed for balance before Conscription and if the Developers feel it's needed, adjust it, then adjust Conscription to fit that vision of balance. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes. What I *meant* to say, of course, is that they give *good* suggestions (i.e. well-defended, non-earthshattering, balanced ones) consideration. At least that is the way it appears to me.

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, I understand what the thread is about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif , but if suggested changes are given for one aspect then those changes, at least in part, affect the balance of the nation. Imagine Conscription given to Pythium or Arco, in it's current form it wouldn't do much at all. But if it was improved to the point where it was either 'good enough to be noticed' or 'by the definition of the word' then that would place Pythium or Arco even more above most other nations. Just imagine Jotun with Conscription.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I had forgotten about the Guardian Commander (more than likely because I never use him). The Lord Warden is another, though he has stealth and it doesn't really work against him. Though I think the reason he is Movement 1 is because of his armor. Hoplite Commanders move at 2, same as Machaka Commander.

For Tien Ch'i: the Eunuch, the Ceremonial Master, Minister of Rituals, and Celestial Master all have Movement 1.

I believe the reason/why for it is because common knowledge of the era had most dignitaries and ceremonial leaders traveled with a retinue of servants, slaves, etc. And so that is represented by them losing movement.

In game however, it makes a huge difference having the greater portion of your commanders regulated to 1 movement.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, Celestial Soldiers are very nice. They are fairly pricy (4 Air Gems per Soldier - 20 Air Gems to cast the spell).

If they had 15 that would be summons worth 60 Air Gems, quite a healthy chunk. I'd hope they would be decent enough to make you think twice for that cost http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ February 16, 2004, 04:37: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, quite so.

Quote:

Imagine Conscription given to Pythium or Arco, in it's current form it wouldn't do much at all. But if it was improved to the point where it was either 'good enough to be noticed' or 'by the definition of the word' then that would place Pythium or Arco even more above most other nations. Just imagine Jotun with Conscription.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Jotun with conscription would still only have meaningful effect if it were on an accelerated scale, such as Peter suggested. As it is, a couple of points after 10-20 turns, with a max level of about 6, isn't even particularly noticable for Jotunheim, because the gold cost of them buying the same thing manually is very very low, and it only happens if you don't buy it above 5 anyway, and with Jotunheim, buying 5-20 defense is often worth the price. Tempting the J player to not buy any defense in the hope of saving a very few pennies is more likely to just get players to neglect defense hoping for insignifigant savings.

Quote:

... I had forgotten about the Guardian Commander (more than likely because I never use him).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Before the Last patch, some/all of the other Ulmish commanders had move 1 too, but they changed that in the patch. Now even Ulm's Full Plate commanders with tower shields march 2, while the Guardian marches 1.

Quote:

The Lord Warden is another, though he has stealth and it doesn't really work against him. Though I think the reason he is Movement 1 is because of his armor.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It'd be interesting to know IW's reasons for choosing certain movement rates. My assumption has been that it has something to do with the use of beasts, physical condition, and/or travel habits.

Quote:

... For Tien Ch'i: the Eunuch, the Ceremonial Master, Minister of Rituals, and Celestial Master all have Movement 1. I believe the reason/why for it is because common knowledge of the era had most dignitaries and ceremonial leaders traveled with a retinue of servants, slaves, etc. And so that is represented by them losing movement. In game however, it makes a huge difference having the greater portion of your commanders regulated to 1 movement.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, hmm. If there is a meaningful thematic reason, it might be better to balance them in other ways than un-doing something that has a reason.

PvK

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Boys, how many times do I need to repeat that this is simply not true? I have savegame files with conscriptions at 13+ (I bought PD to 10, and the freebies built on top of that).

Re: Tien Chi Conscription
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, so that is why if you change it so that it has a meaninful impact on your nation (as Peter suggests, which if it's not apparent, I believe is a good idea) then it would affect the balance of the nation. The most meaningful impact I could think of was Jotun who has great PD. So as you can see if it is adjusted, it would affect the balance of the nation.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, I agree. That is why I said either give them movement 2, or adjust their statistics or the commander in some way to make up for it. Such as, if each of those is slow because of their retinue, when they are in combat give them some sort of inherent bodyguards or something similiar to fit the theme while not unbalancing it.