Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oops, Sorry!

True about the rear provinces, but there are rarely any troops there either (making the attack a temporary loss of a province). Priests and armies are often moving together.

15 trolls? Does not sound very mighty http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

At higher research costs armies might be larger at the time when you reach lvl 9 research. Try playing around with alternate costs a bit. It might very well improve how you feel the game should evolve.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

>Do you have any idea of how strong of an army is required to survive an attack from these guys.


A small screen of HI, a handful of priests, one mage casting paralyze. That should handle it with minimal losses.


>Even an army of 15 trolls with 10 archers would still take big losses... especially if they retreat because of the wraith lord.


15 Trolls and 10 Archers?
That's not an army. By the time 9th level spells are in play that's a nuisance raiding force.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

NTJedi --
You've never seen what an Iron Dragon can do, then, as an accessory to battlefield slaughter.
Hell, even I've had a mere Wailing Lady with marble breastplate, boots of quickness, black heart and luck talisman get over 100 kills by itself against the AI. I've equipped a Vampire Lord to the point that it routed out an army of 1600 AI units in a single battle, alone. The ability to keep, and if helpful equip, units is very handy.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I tested and didn't find it that impressive. I cast one on an indie with 50 light or heavy infantries, no priest. All the riders got minced within ten turns. The Wraith Lord fight on and finally scared away the others but most units escaped alive.

If you cast more than one and cut off the retreating path, that will be a good use of the spell. But otherwise, one or two doesn't look impressive to me.

And Death Level 4 is *not* a low requirement. There are two items to increase death, other than the artifacts: Skull Staff (10 gems) and Skull Mask (20 gems). Skull Mask is expensive, so to use this spell in large number, you basically need access to Death 3 mage. Only two nations (regular C'tis and Ashen Ermor) have that. Even Jotun and Broken Ermor need the right random pick!

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

Taqwus
an Iron Dragon means you place one or more of your commanders in danger just for going into battle.
Now if you cast Ghost Riders 5 times (same cost as your Iron Dragon) it will EASILY do more damage than your one Iron Dragon and no commanders are in danger. (except for the rare case where the player has a lab and fire/frost dome casted)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This was an example as for a strong back province defense... of course it's not front line.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">THANK_YOU ! The point is the province is no longer protected and any enemy which owned the province is no longer collecting incoming/resources... your troops if they were set to attack now take the place without conflict unless another army was also moving to the location. Now cast the spell 5 times... your enemy just lost 5 provinces... same cost as one iron dragon. That's a good chunk of incoming and men lost... more damage then one iron dragon can do.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Different spell requiring 4 death and 4 blood to cast plus 44 blood slaves. Lots more difficult and expensive to cast... thus in a completely different Category.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The loss of a province could mean 50 gold or more for that turn... even if the spell is casted only once every turn... that adds up fast.
plus a possible loss of gem income from mg sites.
plus the player has to spend a turn for a commander and maybe an army to recover the location. Men which could/should be supporting/patrolling the front line or castle.

[ January 07, 2004, 23:56: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

Welcome back NT, glad to see your rinse, wash, repeat tactic of agruing hasn't changed any.

Anyway, why not have 5 casts of riders attack an iron dragon or otherness, or whatever other spell you don't feel is up to the challenge. Seems the best way to actually tell if they are balanced no?

Well remember also that to get off 5 riders on the same turn you need 25 death gems (not hard at all) and 5 death 4 mages (now that's a bit more tricky for many races).

Also will not domes effect the riders spell? Any other summoned will just walk in and ignore the dome.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

I'm saying that for only 5 gems this spell seems too powerful.

Run some tests...


I've seen enemy AI and human player armies with 120 men having lost the battle to this single cast of a spell. The lost province means loss of gold, units, province defense and maybe gems.

[ January 08, 2004, 00:07: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">5 casts of ghost riders on a province which has only one iron dragon. I seriously doubt the iron dragon would live. Remember the iron dragon also places a commander in danger another cost not seen by ghost riders except for the rare case of a fire/frost dome.

A better test is create an average army and see which does more damage.... one iron dragon or 5 casts of ghost riders.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Others were using spells as a comparison which were 5 times as expensive... thus I had to show the effect of 5 times for ghost riders thats why.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Check my previous Posts you will see I've already wrote about the frost/fire domes... which require a lab for that province.

[ January 08, 2004, 00:20: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well then, since no-one is agreeing with you, you're in the ideal position to exploit the imbalance and win lots of games, aren't you?

Alternatively, you might not enjoy a greater success rate than expected statistically, in which case you'd have to admit you're wrong, so forget I spoke http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I guess my point is that the spell clearly isn't breaking the game at the moment (else you'd be getting more support) so until some supportive evidence (game results) shows up, there's not a lot to be said beyond the dogged repetition of the claim.

Re: Is Ghost Riders too powerful ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Never? Strange... I found games with shifting alliances to often Last longer.

I'm curious, do you tend to play on small maps with permanent alliances? That's the only way I can imagine games consistently having such low research.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">[snip description of aggresive play]
I've played enough games (I've been a multi-player addict for over 25 years) with a wide variety of settings and different Groups of players that I've come to the conclusion that this is generally the way it works when I'm playing. *shrugs* </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's what I guessed. Considering you play so aggresively it's not much of a surprise your games are short: You either win quick, or you lose quick.

IMHO this seems to color your perceptions of the benefit of blood magic, or higher level magic in general.

[ January 08, 2004, 11:34: Message edited by: Jasper ]