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Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

Something's been bothering me subconsciously and I finally know what it is. Perhaps someone who's actually tried it can answer this question:

The spell Body Ethereal has an AoE of 1. The Wyrm is size 6, and thus larger than 1 standard square (or at least it looks that way on the pre-battle positioning map). Can a Seithkona still cast BE on the Wyrm, since the target takes up more squares than the BE's AoE of 1?

Bonus question: how many size 2 beings fit within 1 standard square?

TIA.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

Another thing that I forgot to mention in an earlier reply on the subject of why I didn't/wouldn't choose another path, like air, for the Wyrm. Utgard begins with no air gem sites, nor mages with air. Once the game advanced sufficiently to the point where the SC might want to cast a spell that needs gems, or craft an air item, the SC couldn't without consuming large numbers of gems in alchemy conVersions. Or worse, having to personally go search for air sites. The point of using an SC pretender is to have the SC fight. If the SC is off doing something else, then its best abilities are wasted, IMO.

I'm sure that some may argue that having an SC doing site searches isn't wasted time. I'd like for them to explain how site-searching is not a less efficient use of the SC, when that SC could be grabbing more provinces, expanding the nation's gold base and spreading dominion faster?

If you take a pretender who cannot use the theme's gem resources, you are not taking full advantage of the strengths of that theme. This is why much as I like water for a pretender, I've learned to temper my enthusiasm for it when playing Jotun. Only the Jotun Niflheim theme has a water site, and I dislike the mage choices of that theme. It's my least-favorite Jotun theme.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

Quote:

Originally posted by Arryn:
The spell Body Ethereal has an AoE of 1. The Wyrm is size 6, and thus larger than 1 standard square (or at least it looks that way on the pre-battle positioning map). Can a Seithkona still cast BE on the Wyrm, since the target takes up more squares than the BE's AoE of 1?

Behemoths can be etherealized, so you probably can.

Quote:

Bonus question: how many size 2 beings fit within 1 standard square?

Three. 6 sizes can fit in any given square, so you can put six hoburgs, or one Jotun and two hoburgs, and so on.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

Quote:

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
6 sizes can fit in any given square

Thanks Graeme!

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

<center>Turn #9, Early Winter of year 1
The noose tightens on the snake.</center>
Winter having set in, there are no travellers bringing word from afar of events in distant lands.

Some of the defenders within Pythium's citadel sally forth in a weak, vain attempt to drive me away, aided by a half-score gladiators from the Feral Woods (#110) to the northeast. My beseiging army (avatar Jorgun, prophet Grymis, Herse Bove, and 21 Jotuns) engage one of the commanders that I have previously battled, two velites, and a total of twenty-three gladiators. We slaughter the entire enemy force, save for one velite that escapes into the Feral Woods. But the battle is not without a price. The accumulation of wounds from previous battles finally takes its toll, and three of my Jotun spearmen lay dead on the field before the citadel, and another half-dozen carry various injuries. Fortune is with my commanders, and they remain unhurt.

Jorgun adds 4 more kills and 9 more trophies to his tally, while Bove claims 2 more kills and 10 more trophies, but the mood is somber as we remember the fallen.

The number of dissenters declines by two in the Black Alps, and by one in Gwyrth. The number of faithful in still-independent Zenthra rises to half the populace.

The Norna Skade joins her sister, Lit, in my coven, which achieve mastery of the first rank of 'Enchantment' magics and make rapid progress towards the second rank.

My realm has:

__4 Provinces (+Pythium under seige)
213 Treasury.
346 Income. (unchanged)
111 Upkeep. (+10)
131 Resources in the capital. (+1)

Gem income is:

+3 Astral (27)
+1 Death (09)
+2 Nature (13)

I command that another Seithkona be found for the coven, and 4 more Jotun Spearman be readied for the siege of the Pythium citadel, to make up for any losses we should suffer there over the winter. I also decide to seek out a human commander from amongst the inhabitants of the Black Alps. He may prove useful in guiding reinforcements from the capital to join with my army. These preparations drain the treasury of 240 coins, and I once again defer bolstering provincial defenses, since it appears, at least for now, that my lands are under no threat. It is a calculated, but reasonably safe risk this early in the war.

The Seithkona Urd, bringing five Jotun spearmen to replace our losses, continues her march from the Alps. Judging the strategic situation to be well in hand, I decide to leave my beseiging Jotuns under the able command of my prophet, while my avatar, alone, goes forth to the independent river valley of Eribon (#74), and the estimated half-score heavy cavalry that await there.

PS - All provinces with positive dominion are currently at Cold-2.

I make a number of small, but careless mistakes this turn:

I leave the scout Bdvar in place for yet a sixth consecutive month. The continued oversight is due to not checking F1 as I should each month. Of course, if IW were to provide a small icon in provinces with hidden friendly units ...
I put my beseiging troops under the command of my prophet (because his morale is better than the Herse's). I should have put them under the Herse and ordered the prophet to preach down the dominion in the beseiged province. I do catch this oversight next month, but I should have started it in this month.
Having just achieved Enchantment-1, and with enough Death gems, I was now ready to have one of the Seithkonas cast Reanimation. I simply forgot, but I do wake up this coming month.

<center>to be continued ...</center>

[ February 11, 2004, 14:23: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

Quote:

Originally posted by Arryn:
BTW, I think the complexion and balance of the game will be dramatically changed if IW allows for the tactic of hit-n-run mages, or as Norfleet might phrase it, drive-by castings.

Hit-and-run priesting is the bane of my armies. I ran into this in my first multiplayer game with my clan, purely by accident: He had sent priests as commanders of his regular armies, who banished, and when his regular armies got slaughtered, his commanders auto-routed.

I, of course, being inherently suspicious, interpreted it as a deliberate act, which simply inspired him to actually *MAKE* it a deliberate act, and so progress against his empire literally ground to a halt as every turn, my horde of marauding undead would be decimated in a hit-and-run, drive-by priesting. It's definitely workable, if you deliberately build for it.

Hit-and-run is definitely a workable tactic that can counter any attempt to make a line-drive for your capitol, provided you're willing to be a little flexible about the holding of territory: Guerrilla mages can definitely put a cramp in one's style.

An expansion on this would be very interesting for Dominions II: Sneaking units that can perform sneaking retreats, even into enemy territory, that are thus able to harass and attack enemy forces in a campaign of guerrilla warfare.

[ February 10, 2004, 07:12: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:
progress against his empire literally ground to a halt as every turn, my horde of marauding undead would be decimated in a hit-and-run, drive-by priesting

Yes, I can see how cheap, 50gp human priests, recruitable at most land temples, given orders of Banishment x5, Retreat, can be the bane (pun intended) of Ermorian-style hordes, and why folks here say that Ermor isn't very difficult to counter in MP. A handful of them, thrown into the path of advancing undead, can just ruin months of work assembling such a horde. It does my soul good to think about it. hehe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

So, Norfy, I'm glad you're taking the time to read my AAR. Even if you haven't been commenting on the AAR itself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif But your "drive-by priesting" phrase is so amusing to me that I forgive you your sins.

I will leave you with the mental image of a red-armored knight riding a white dragon (called 'gold leader') flying inside a very long chasm filled with randomly-spaced ballista-armed watchtowers, yelling to another flyer "stay on topic ... stay on topic ..." {yes, I'm a huge SW fan}

[ February 10, 2004, 09:40: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

Not wanting to start a big argument here (but doing it anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ), but it seems you gave up on an Air Wyrm a little bit to easy (not taking into account the range of BE). IME, the Seithkona will very reliably cast BE (and Luck) on the Wyrm BEFORE casting it on herself. Thus, after researching Enchantment 3, you can start the battle with the Seithkona casting BE and Luck and the Wyrm casting Mistform, Mirror Image and then attacking.

The weakness is (as you have pointed out) protecting the Seithkona. I try to do this by having one 'suicide' troop in the other end of the battlefield. If you place your troops right, the enemy won't reach him before the Wyrm starts moving forward (and thus the seithkona will never be targeted). Alternatively, you can skip MI (the Wyrm not having very good defense anyway) and go Mistform, Flight, Attack closest instead. In that way, you can start the Wyrm far back and get it to the front in time to take the initial enemy charge. Of course, troop placement will be crucial.

IMO, an Astral Wyrm is easier to use, but with national Astral mages, an Air Wyrm can be just as good (with careful planning and troop placement). In MP, I would like to have at least 6, preferably 7 on a Astral pretender, making the Air Wyrm a much cheaper choice.

As for using a Pretender with the same magic as your national gem income, I agree that it can be important sometimes, but IMO not in your case. Your Wyrm only has Astral 4 and you will get plenty of Nornas with Astral 3. And Astral can very easily be boosted in combat... OTOH, having easy access to air spells such as Storm, Mass Flight and Fog Warriors is great for all nations. And alchemy from Astral gems for the purpose of casting battle field spells is not a big deal.

Just my two cents of course (oh, BTW, despite being quite expensive, I would definitely consider a 3 Air, 3 Earth Wyrm. Invulnerability, Mistform and Mirror Image, and BE/Luck from a Seithkona. Try hurting that one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ).

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

Quote:

Originally posted by Patrik:
Not wanting to start a big argument here (but doing it anyway

It's not an argument, Pat. My purpose for this AAR thread is educational. And that includes myself. Despite any impressions to the contrary, I'm open to differing ideas.

Quote:

it seems you gave up on an Air Wyrm a little bit to easy (not taking into account the range of BE).

I agree that I did.

Quote:

The weakness is (as you have pointed out) protecting the Seithkona. I try to do this by having one 'suicide' troop in the other end of the battlefield. If you place your troops right, the enemy won't reach him before the Wyrm starts moving forward (and thus the seithkona will never be targeted).

I may have too much of an aVersion to sacrificing units. It just goes against my grain. Call it a weakness of mine that you can exploit. But this is, indeed, a viable tactic.

Quote:

Alternatively, you can skip MI (the Wyrm not having very good defense anyway) and go Mistform, Flight, Attack closest instead. In that way, you can start the Wyrm far back and get it to the front in time to take the initial enemy charge. Of course, troop placement will be crucial.

I would prefer to script 'rear' rather than 'closest', to take full advantage of the Flight. The downside is that my troops would have to fend for themselves while I ravaged the enemy commanders and missile troops. IMO, Flight is the primary reason why I would deign to use an Air Wyrm. However, I'm not so sure that giving up Astral Shield (or Weapon) for Flight is wise for an SC. Though I admit that Flight is of immense value in the capture of forts. I look forward to hearing the opinions of others on this.

Quote:

IMO, an Astral Wyrm is easier to use, but with national Astral mages, an Air Wyrm can be just as good (with careful planning and troop placement).

It may be of interest that when Zen suggested the Astral Wyrm to me, I'd just lost, badly, in a 4-player blitz MP game for VPs, using a dual-bless nature/water Son of Niefel. I'm sure that "easier to use" was on his mind.

Quote:

As for using a Pretender with the same magic as your national gem income, I agree that it can be important sometimes, but IMO not in your case. Your Wyrm only has Astral 4 and you will get plenty of Nornas with Astral 3.

This is where we fundamentally disagree. Astral Shield, Astral Weapon, Teleport, and Gateway are all caster-only. Flight, like BE, can be cast by someone other than the SC. The real question is trading the two astral enchantments in the early game for flight, with the understanding that the SC will not be able to cast the more powerful, caster-only astral spells later on. Conjuration-6 will get me an air-2 mage, in the form of a Harbinger, for 25 astral gems, which by the time I have Conj-6 should be no problem. So the option of flight (and other nice air spells) is still open, just delayed until the mid-game.

Quote:

BTW, despite being quite expensive, I would definitely consider a 3 Air, 3 Earth Wyrm. Invulnerability, Mistform and Mirror Image, and BE/Luck from a Seithkona. Try hurting that one.

Now this is an intriguing concept I may have to play around with a bit. Thanks!

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

I concur with Patrik.

Jotun's biggest weakness is the lack of random picks in fire/earth/air.
Getting air on the pretender gives you among others access to air magic, wards vs air, protection vs missiles & protection vs fliers...all stuff you do not have.
Your cold dominion & your air proficiency also offer a degree of protection vs fire.

Getting astral on your pretender doesn't help compensate for this, and in addition makes your other vulnerability (being a 2nd tier astral nation) even bigger, as now both your battle mages & your pretender are vulnerable to Magic duel. This will not hurt you in SP, but can easily doom you in MP.

While you could get a high lv of astral to avoid this vulnerability a Wyrm doesn't cut it as a SC in the end game, so investing in high astral would not be a good idea IMO. Non humanoid pretenders can barely stand vs fully equipped humanoid ones when Const4+ is researched, much less when artifacts come into play.
The Wyrm works as a relatively expendable, easy to use, forgivable with mistakes Pretender for early expansion both in land & seas. Trying to turn the critter into something else with more than some token magic is a waste of design points IMO.