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Re: Clams overpowered?

Quote:

i like fire gem hoarding

I know thats just a joke.

Fever fetish or blood stones are both at a normal cost/benefit rate. There are 3 major advantages for the clams:

1. It cost only (2) water. Its easier to find mages with water magic path then the 2 different pathes of the fetish/stone. With robe/bracelet water 2 is easy.

2. clam is without disadvantage. Fever fetish diseases and blood stones costs are to high for hording.

3. clams produce astral pearls and this are the universal gems in the game. They can be exchanged in each other gem for a 2:1 rate. Later the pearls are used direct for wish/disentchant/arcane nexus. Last one is really hard when cast with 1500-2000 pearls. Non-horders have no chance to dispell and the horder can easily disentchant each other non-horder global entchantment and take the slot for his own spells. With an 200-300 astral income (clams+arcane nexus) there are enough pearls to wish for doom horrors, armageddon or just more gems.

The problem with the clams occurs mainly in the longer medium/big map games. In smaller maps the clam tactic may be to slow. Anyway with a cost of only 10 and without any disadvantages the clams are overpowered and clam hording is a "performance of duty" for every MP player in an endgame. Its really boring because its always the same mechanism...

[ April 16, 2004, 11:27: Message edited by: calmon ]

Re: Clams overpowered?

Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:
For a non-hoarder to win against a hoarder, he merely needs to halt the hoarding: If mages who make clams keep getting eaten by horrors, the hoarding will stop shortly.

So, now Mictlan and Abysia can do something about it if the clam hoarder hasn't been smart enough to put domes on his provinces.

Re: Clams overpowered?

Quote:

Originally posted by tinkthank:
Seems that in order to get lots of clams and have them be useful (that is, not get them first at turn 90), you need to
- produces water mages
- use those water mages to go and find water gems
- use those water mages to forge clams/turn
- use those water gems to forge clams

You don't actually need to find any alternative sources of water gems. As described in "The Next Patch" thread, even with only 5 astral pearls per turn from your capitol it takes only 69 turns to reach 100 clams.

Re: Clams overpowered?

Quote:

Originally posted by mnoracle:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> blood stones are both at a normal cost/benefit rate

Hmm... let me see, blood stones 20+5, but they are also pump earth magic skill. Thinking that you can easily amass huge numbers of blood slaves, i don't see where is the main difference with clams.
So BS are broken!!!<hr /></blockquote>To get to 200 earth stones, which is the equivalent in magical income to 100 clams, will cost you 4000 blood slaves if you don't have hammers on your forgers, or 3000 slaves if you do. The stones do produce earth gems to pay for that part, but you can't alchemize gems into blood slaves.

Re: Clams overpowered?

Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:
If VQs and Clams were the most powerful things ever, I'd be seeing EVERYONE with a VQ pouring out clams. Clearly, this isn't the case.

That's making the assumption that everybody plays to win, instead of to enjoy the game. That's not a valid assumption.

Re: Clams overpowered?

After looking at the VQ (I never played her) I think the developers just forgot one thing that would balance her. It follows all the themes in the game and makes logical sense (just watch any vampire movie) She should simply be very susceptible to fire. I know whenever I meet a vampire on the street I have an overwhelming need to set them on fire!

Re: Clams overpowered?

Quote:

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
That's making the assumption that everybody plays to win, instead of to enjoy the game. That's not a valid assumption.

But if you play and enjoy losing, why do you care about what you see as uber-overpowered strategies?

Enjoy the loss!

Re: Clams overpowered?

Quote:

Piercing beats unarmored much harder than siege does *150% I think, whereas siege does 125% for certain, or as many would put it, "fo' sho'"*

Well piercing does work pretty well against but it does not work as well as siege. Rememeber siege units do wackloads of damage with an area effect and at very long range. When you see decent amount of siege and you have unarmored troops you know you are doomed ( you are also somewhat doomed by piercing as well ). Remember wrt. piercing, most flying units are light armored and they take a real whooping from piercing.

Sorry to digress but it's a great game ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Quote:

If VQs and Clams were the most powerful things ever, I'd be seeing EVERYONE with a VQ pouring out clams.

Well not everyone, but everyone who was clued in AND wanted an easy win. Quite often people want to chalange themselves, especially when they are playing against opponents who are sub-par ( compared with themselves ) they try sub-optimal stratigies.

Look clams are much like metal makers + fusion in TA. Actually, it's basically identical. In 1v1 games metal makers are not "overpowered" as you can win without using metal makers (by rushing hard). However in FFA games they are dramatically overpowered since they are the only path to victory ( again against competent opponents ). This game is much like an FFA game ( since we generally play with multiple opponents ). Further, clams are worse than metal makers + fusion since they require a resource which is not as critical to one's war machine as the metal + energy which goes into the fusion+metal makers ( clearly water is important but not as important ).

As to the VQ. She's just amazing at the start of the game. Maybe she is balanced considering that she's not great at the end. Maybe she is balanced since she costs quite a few points ( mostly for the magic ). Maybe. I don't think so, personally. If I was playing against someone near my level ( which I do not think is that high ) I would take a VQ for sure.

Re: Clams overpowered?

Quote:

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Norfleet:
If VQs and Clams were the most powerful things ever, I'd be seeing EVERYONE with a VQ pouring out clams. Clearly, this isn't the case.

That's making the assumption that everybody plays to win, instead of to enjoy the game. That's not a valid assumption. <hr /></blockquote>Perhaps, Graeme, you would want to rephrase that. To the casual eye it doesn't hold much water and in the context of the above it comes across as argumentative more than anything else and it is a tone that runs througout just about every post you put up on this board in response to something Norfleet Posts lately. Most of your replies to Posts are helpful and informative in the extreme. Your contributions to this board and on the summoned creature reference are noted and appreciated. The Posts you give in response to Norfleet, however, come across as being more argumentative and vindictive than constructive and critical. You seem to have something personal against him. That's fine but it would be nice if you could limit the sniping at him off the public Boards. I have noticed his responses to yours don't contain the same amount of bile you seem to spew at him. I wasn't really going to write this and I will not post on this thread again. I just got tired of witnessing this stuff and felt like saying something. Good day.