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Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.

seems the "keiler" is build using a M48 hull.

so i could use this as base, but what armor vlues should
be chosen for the turret armor ( i mean the keiler has no turret ) how is this calculated by the game ?

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.

M256,

Another thing to consider when looking at accuracy is the ammunition as mentioned in one of the above posts.

There are no less than 6 versions of the M256 gun in the US OOB. All have improvements in sabot penetration. This just cannot be. The reason is that there are only 4 DU penetrators.
IMHO the first one, the M829 was not very efficient and was not the kill all bullet the Army was looking for. It also had some accuracy problems. So for these reasons I would suggest changing weapon #100-120mm M256 86 to Accuracy--11 Sabot Pen--52.

The next gun shows up in 1988, the time of the "Silver Bullet", the M829A1. This is weapon # 101. Accuracy for this gun should be kicked up to 12 or 13 and the Sabot Pen up from 62 to 82. This round was going through sand burms and still destroying T-72s. You may want to up the Sabot Range to 125 also.

Weapon #102 120mm M256-91 should be a clone of the 1988 weapon. I cant find any improvements to either the gun tube or ammunition to warrent any changes. The real changes may be on the Tank itself.

Weapon #247 120mm M256-94 Introduces the M256 A2. This penetrator is a vasts improvement in hitting pover and accuracy over the "Silver Bullet"(A1). Moving at least 100M/Sec faster and with a better designed pennetrator this is a very accurate round and leathal at longer ranges. With this in mind I suggest a Accuracy rating of 13 to 14 and a Sabot Pen of 95. Sabot Range could remain at 125. There should also be a change to the HEAT PED from 60 to 78. 1994 is when the M830A1 was fielded. This HEAT round was more accurate and out performed the original M830 against light armoured vehicles by 30%. Can be used as an AP round and against helicopters

The last M829 Sabot/DU began mass production in 2001 or 02 and is now in use. This is the M829A3. One source that I found says that this round has a 70% better kill ability over the M829A2 and a 30% to 70% better hit probability. I have some doubts on these figures. But consider this, the first M829 rounds weighed about 41+ pounds. This one is stated as being just under 56 pounds. With all the composit materials to reduce the weight of the round and reduce barrel ware, how much does the penetrator weigh now? My best guess with out sabot is 5 or more kg. This round is described as having increased velocity and more long range accuracy. It was designed to defeat all armored threats even those protected by ERA. With this in mind I would kick this weapon up a notch!
The weapon is #105 120mm M256-03. Sabot Pen 100, Sabot Range 130.

We still have weapon #125 120mm M256-07 to deal with.
In the future there will be inprovements in the ammunition for the 120mm gun. If you dont belive that then just use weapon #124 140mm NATO10. reduce the ammo load out a little and mount it on an Abrams.

However, If you think we can and will improve things, try this.
Accuracy 15, HE Kill-16, Sabot Pen-1010. Sabot Range-135, HEAT Pen-82.
Its not the 140mm but its close!

Hope this helps with future OOBs. Now its time to work on the 25mm! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

All above info is just a suggestion and is based on everthing I could find in books and on the web. I edited because I had to do a date check for when the rounds in question were actually available. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../beerglass.gif

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.

No. 120mm M256 gun 86 represents M827 APFSDS round, first US 120mm APFSDS.M827 was capable penetrate around 450mm at 2000m
M829 was quite powerfull.It was capable kill any Russian tank in this time, only Kontakt-5 equipped tanks could survive hits (Kontakt-5 tanks were not so numerous...)
M829A1 was fielded somewhere around 1990-91
M829A2 around 1994-95 and newest APFSDS M829A3 around 2004-2005.

Value 13 is not enough for 120mm APFSDS or HEAT-FS.They are much more accurate. I have made some tests with game, and actual accuracy is too low after 70 era.
M1 Abrams with 105mm gun is capable hit target with first round at 2000m with propability around 80%. In game with crew with exp 70 it is only 60%. You need crew with exp 100 or higher to have 80% propability,so we need way to make modern MBTs much more accurate, at least +20%

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.

Quote:

kevineduguay1 said:
Hello folks!

I finnaly made it onto this site.

M256, I like your ideas with the 120mm guns but also look at the sabot range as this effects long range hitting power also. Notice that the latter Russian 125mm guns have a greater sabot range than most if not all the 120mm's. This has to be looked at especially when in another post it was pointed out that the Russian ammo lost energy more quickly than the rounds used by Western countries. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Hi, kevineduguay1.

I'm glad you made it... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

On your comments about newer Russian tanks capabilities, I quote the best source for modern Russian armor over the Internet, Vasiliy Fufanov's Modern Russian Armor:

Quote:

The 2A46 and 2A46M lines of mainguns (internal designations D-81T, D-81TM) were developed by the Spetstekhnika design bureau in Ekaterinburg (former Sverdlovsk), and are manufactured at the Motovilikha artillery plant in Perm.

The 125mm high-velocity maingun was a huge overkill when it was first introduced on a T-64A MBT back in 1969. Today, however, it is barely able to keep on par with the modern Western mainguns like Rh-120. Its inability to reliably penetrate frontal projections of modern MBTs is the main reason why the Russian designers are developing a 152mm maingun to substitute the 2A46 gun on a perspective Russian MBT.

However, even with tungsten alloy rounds this gun remains a very dangerous adversary that assures penetration of any other projection at all battle ranges.

One of the drawbacks of this gun is that a high strain on internal surfaces during firing, as well as sheer size of it demands strict manufacturing discipline of which Soviet industry was never famous. This resulted in unsatisfatory dispersion characteristics of original models due to all kinds of manufacturing defects, including substandard materials, poor machining, barrel drooping, and so on. It is worth noting, however, that this problem has received due attention during the upgrading efforts (2A46M line of mainguns), including the purchase of the Western machining equipment. Improved manufacturing process and better stabilization and recoil equipment provided for increase in accuracy especially on the move and at medium to long ranges.
The barrel life of an original 2A46 gun was 210 APFSDS rounds or 840 HEAT/HEF rounds, or around 500 'generic' rounds, according to the Polish data provided by Mike Jasinsky. Russian sources give the figure of 900 rounds, but it is not known of what type. The barrel life of 2A46M guns is unknown, but modernization included the addition a more robust internal chromium liner and provided for a simple gun barrel replacement in field conditions.

As a last note, the unique feature of all Russian mainguns is the ability to launch guided rounds through the barrel.

Specifications (2A46M-2 with T-90 FCS and autoloader):
Designation 2A46M-2
Internal designation D-81TM-2
Type Smoothbore
Caliber 125 mm
Features Bore Evacuator, Thermal sleeve, Chromium liner
Barrel replaceable in field conditions
Recoil devices 2, symmetrical
Free recoil until the round clears the barrel
Recoil length 300 mm
Barrel length 6383 mm
51 caliber
Barrel life >500 shots
Gun weight 2500 kg
Max.barrel pressure 5200 N/cm2
Ammunition separately loaded
w/semicombustible propellant case 4Zh63
Ammunition types: APFSDS, HEAT, HEF, ATGM

Practical ROF
autoloader 8 rds/min
manual 2 rds/min
ATGMs out to 5km
with autoloader 3 rds/min

Effective range
direct fire vs. 2m high target
HEAT 1010 m
APFSDS 2120 m
with FCS
HEAT/APFSDS 4000 m
HEF 5000 m
HEF indirect 10000 m
Max.range with APFSDS >80 km

Fab

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.

Quote:

JaM said:
No. 120mm M256 gun 86 represents M827 APFSDS round, first US 120mm APFSDS.M827 was capable penetrate around 450mm at 2000m
M829 was quite powerfull.It was capable kill any Russian tank in this time, only Kontakt-5 equipped tanks could survive hits (Kontakt-5 tanks were not so numerous...)
M829A1 was fielded somewhere around 1990-91
M829A2 around 1994-95 and newest APFSDS M829A3 around 2004-2005.

Value 13 is not enough for 120mm APFSDS or HEAT-FS.They are much more accurate. I have made some tests with game, and actual accuracy is too low after 70 era.
M1 Abrams with 105mm gun is capable hit target with first round at 2000m with propability around 80%. In game with crew with exp 70 it is only 60%. You need crew with exp 100 or higher to have 80% propability,so we need way to make modern MBTs much more accurate, at least +20%

I agree with you, JaM. 110%. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Fab

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.

I found something strange. Im trying to find better accuracy ratings for guns, but during my tests i found that Firecontrol rating do only a minor bonus to accuracy.During my tests i tryed gun with acc 20, rangefinder 30 and firecontrol 0. i had accuracy at 2000m (target size 4) 64%. When i rised FC at 20,it rised accuracy to 70%, FC 40 made up to 76%. So only +6% at 2000m with 20 point Fire Control.Isnt it too low?

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.

Quote:

Is the figure of 80% to hit @ 2000 yards, etc a figure given by US Army? Is it done at a known range course? The reason I'm asking is because the US Army in particular has been wildly optimistic with information such as this. If we had a third party confirmation of this info I'd be much more likely to accept it.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.

Jam,

I read about this round somewhere but just cant remember. Was this a tungsten penetrator?

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.

JaM,

The gun accuracy was a problem in the early years with the 120mm. But you may have a point! Maybe the fire controle range finder and stabiliser ratings are not up to par? Thats also not including crew ratings. American troops fire more rounds in any training exersise than any other nation. This shoul beef up our experiance and some other rateings in the game.

Re: Accuracy values for the main guns - MBT\'s.

M256,

Just read an article on the web talking about Russian 125mm Sabot ammo. They were said to be able to pen 580 to 650mm of armor but because of yaw or instability in flight at long ranges they were barely able to pen 350mm. For the size of the gun this is around WWII standards. They are now developing newer APFSDS rounds and may have them in service.