Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

Frankly no I don't see what your getting at. A utopian society isn't just the physical side of things its spiritual, moral the whole shebang. Indeed the physical side was considered the least important by many proponents of the Utopian ideals.

You may call utopia endless greed and arrogance, but frankly that's a nasty perversion of the ideal. Those who proposed the ideal wanted the whole betterment of society as a whole. I'll grant you that is the aim of the Icaran rulers. BUT included in any utopian ideal was always the freedoms of thought, action and religion. Freedoms Icara does lack or at least limit.

I found this list of common features of dystopias:
* A hierarchical society where divisions between the upper, middle and lower class are definitive and unbending (Caste system)
* A nation-state ruled by an upper class with few democratic ideals - No mention of democracy so far.
* State propaganda programs and educational systems that coerce most citizens into worshipping the state and its government, in an attempt to convince them into thinking that life under the regime is good and just. - Sound familiar?
* Strict conformity among citizens and the general assumption that dissent and individuality are bad.
* A state figurehead that people worship fanatically through a vast personality cult, such as 1984’s Big Brother, We‘s The Benefactor, or Equilibrium‘s Father. - The Praetor is still saint like isn't he?
*A fear or disgust of the world outside the state - Not a big fan of xenos are they?
* A common view of traditional life, particularly organized religion, as primitive and nonsensical complete domination by a state religion, e.g Death-Worship in the Eastasia of 1984 - 'The Path' ringing any bells?
* The "memory" of institutions overriding or taking precidence over human memory
* A penal system that lacks due process laws and often employs psychological or physical torture
* Constant surveillance by government or other agencies
militarized police forces and private security forces - How else do the shadow daggers know what's going on?
* Corruption, impotence or other usurption of democratic instututions
* Insistence by the forces of the establishment that
it provides the best of all possible worlds that all problems are due to the action of its enemies and their dupes

I'm not saying Icara meets all of those exactly, but you've got to admit some of them are spot on and quite a few are very close. Hence why I say it's a dystopia.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

Okay what I was trying to get at was that OUR idea of "Utopia" is not necessarily THEIR idea of Utopia because it's two different cultures with two totally different and mutually exclusive forms of gvernment.

They are not going to see Utopia as the fluffy bunny way we see it they are going to look at our view and say exactly what I wrote. That it's a selfish ideal where people are pretty much going after a Utopia without having to do any work for it, or work after they get their Utopia.

Remember Icarans are a work oriented people and laziness is seen with disgust and to them a "Utopia" where work is barely required is hardly a Utopia at all because to them it would be a life without much purpose. Just sitting and meditating on the flufiness of the world is not their way of viewing things.

And look at what we consider "Utopia" it's pretty much the Star Trek Federation that we all first look too and if you REALLY look at the Federation it's a Communist power block where it's "Do what we say and follow the party line or your booted out." And where Religions of any form are scorned as being obsolete and out of a barbaric past that should be forgotten. And yet we call this a Utopia, because people are "enlightened" (in other words pansified) and because they are pretty much allowed to do whatever they want as long as it conforms to Star Trek morality (which seems to be almost non-existant considering they think nothing of getting a woman pregnant and then leaving)

I mean what we call a Utopia can never truely exist because as a wise man once said "Utopia can only work after everyone is dead." and though kind of harsh sounding it's true because Utopia would require everyone WANTING a fluffy society where Peace, Love and Enlightenment rule and where "we ain't gonna make war no more".

Your right Icara is NOT a Utopia but it is also not a hellish regime that opresses it's people or treats them like the 1984 "Big Brother" would.

Now on to your points of a Distopia http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif:


* A hierarchical society where divisions between the upper, middle and lower class are definitive and unbending

(Icara does not have a caste system at all and I honestly don't know where you got that, yes they have a nobility but this is not a caste that can not change in fact new nobles are added for any new province. Nobles are also stripped of rank if they break the law and a new noble is chosen to replace them.)

* A nation-state ruled by an upper class with few democratic ideals - Nope no democracy, they also never HAD democracy as a choice nor would their society see it as viable after millenia of Praetorian society.

* State propaganda programs and educational systems that coerce most citizens into worshipping the state and its government, in an attempt to convince them into thinking that life under the regime is good and just. - Uh sound like any country where they want you to think they are good and just?
And on the flipside Icara's legal system IS JUST as everyone is answerable to the justice system including the government officials. They are also pretty good as they take care of their population better then any modern government.

* Strict conformity among citizens and the general assumption that dissent and individuality are bad. -They never said individuality is bad they are just as individualistic as we are except that they are aware that they may have to sacrifice that for the good of the community around them.
I know this sounds contradictory but think about it a soldier has to give up "individuality" to serve the government, so do police because they have to be willing ot put themselves in the line of fire to protect others. This is basically just the standard war Icarans are raised, if it comes down to YOU or OTHERS you should die instead of OTHERS (Others being plural) as one man is less important then five or ten or more.

So yes they are individuals in their every day life they are just raised with a "them first" instead of a "me first" attitude.

And uh I also hate to break it to you El_Phil just about EVERY country views dissidents poorly or else we wouldn't call them dissidents we'd call them by a nicer name http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

* A state figurehead that people worship fanatically through a vast personality cult, such as 1984’s Big Brother, We‘s The Benefactor, or Equilibrium‘s Father. - They don't "worship" him as in praying and stuff they aren't catholic yah know. A saint by a "mainstream" Christian viewpoint is someone to be trusted and respected but not worshipped. They also view God as higher then the Praetor and don't see him AS GOD.


*A fear or disgust of the world outside the state - Not a big fan of xenos are they?

Your argument there is slightly flawed as in they are not afraid or disgusted by Xenos simply because they are "the outside world" they are disgusted by them because they are NON-HUMAN and are for the most part not even [b]humanoid[/i] so yeah they are a bunch of specists we figured that out already http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif in fact I sort of stated that in their very first encounter with an alien.
Other Human societies are simply seen as something that needs to be incorporated for the good of humanity.

So in a way you could twist it to say they embrace the outside world http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

* A common view of traditional life, particularly organized religion, as primitive and nonsensical complete domination by a state religion, e.g Death-Worship in the Eastasia of 1984 - I'm sorry your TOTALLY off here and btw that very statement is Contradictory as "organized religion" is being primitive and non-sensical and yet having a "state religion" notice what I'm saying here?

They are if anything ultra-traditionalists who follow an organized religion and encourage others to, the Pastors are not controlled by the state or state officials by any means.

* The "memory" of institutions overriding or taking precidence over human memory- Could you explain what this means?

* A penal system that lacks due process laws and often employs psychological or physical torture- Not torture though they do cain minor criminals to just keep them from having to go to jail for long periods of time.

* Constant surveillance by government or other agencies
militarized police forces and private security forces - How else do the shadow daggers know what's going on

Yeah pretty much here I have to agree with you the Shadow daggers do watch high priority individuals not EVERYONE though.

* Insistence by the forces of the establishment that
it provides the best of all possible worlds that all problems are due to the action of its enemies and their dupes- Nope this doesn't fit either.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

Ugh, no. I'd trade a UFP passport for a one-way ticket to a Culture Orbital or GCU any day of the week.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

I have to say if the Federation from Star Trek is what people would call Utopia, well then I ship me off to the Breen homeworld.

The Federation is nothing more than a socialistic, morally self righteous, elitist organization that goes around the galaxy interfering in other races affairs. They claim that they have a prime directive that prohibits such things, yet they still interfere. They dictate to potential new "members" that if they do not adhere to the Federations rules and regulations, they will not be allowed to join the Federation. They force feed their morals upon other races without any regard for that races history or culture. Again they interfere despite having this holier than thou prime directive. As if they are the greatest culture to ever grace the universe. Essentially it’s the Federation way, or the high way.

They frown upon just about everything from free commerce, ala the Ferengi style, to the ownership of property. Despite their high ideals and righteous moral standards, they secretly trade away planets that have long since been colonized by humans. In one instance the mighty Federation force relocated entire populations of human colonists, American Indians no less, to meet the terms of an unfair treaty. Where were the Federations high and might morals when it came to up holding the rights of those colonists?

There are literally thousands of instances where the Federation has proven itself to be anything but a utopia. In the STNG era we discovered, much to our disgust, that the Federation would rather talk and compromise with aggressive aliens rather than putting a fist into their faces and forcing them to behave. The days of Kirk and his style of command were referred to with some disgust as "Cowboy Diplomacy" by a Jean Luc Picard.

The Federation is ran by a bunch of cowardly men and women who lack the backbone to lead with honor. They dictate "membership" terms to new races and force these races to set aside generation of culture in order to join the mighty Federation. In return they must follow rules of conduct that prohibit them from protecting themselves, securing income, and providing for their future. They must relay upon Starfleet to protect their worlds and the Federation for trade and raw materials. They are forced to endure humiliating moral values that are as alien to them as a hydrofluoric atmosphere is to us.

No the Federation is far far far from being a utopia.

Romulan Star Empire - Minister of Propaganda

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

**smacks head into wall repeatedly**

Starhawk pleas stop generalising about what utopia is. You keep getting it wrong. As has been eloquently stated by AT the Feddies are far from being Utopia and almost no-one thought they were. Hell you could put a better argument for Klingons than the UFP!

I didn't write the list so the terms aren't perfect, but the thrust was and is accurate:

Hierachacal society. Well is anyone but the Praetors family ever going to lead the empire? Can anyone less senior than a noble question their actions? If a nobles son/daughter is competent they are assured of the job aren't they?

Democracy: So they've been so brainwashed they don't even want to influence how their country is run!

State propaganda is still propaganda. And supressing other news sources and view points, either actively (kill 'em) or passively (shunned by society and no radio/TV/xxxx transmissions)

Given that dissent can be just questioning the status quo and wanting change the difference is in how they're treated by the goverment. In the west are disliked but tolerated (they want to stay in goverment) and dissidents in, say Iran are shot, beaten or tortured. Or all three. Icara appears to be in the Iran camp on this one.

Personality Cult not religion! You know like Mao or Stalin had? Quasi-religious cult based around how xxx is beyond question, wonderfull in every way and is the only person to lead them.

Makes perfect sense. Most people think that Traditional life (ie. before the party/preator/dictator) took over and "improved" life for all was primitive and rubbish. The religions of that time were also nonsensical. However the state religion your 'Path' is what everyone should follow. (If the state disdains any who don't follow one religion, it is a state religion. You don't need the goverment enforcing doctrine for it to be a state religion.)

* The "memory" of institutions overriding or taking precidence over human memory. - History is what is written down and what the goverment says it is, not what happened (or you remember). This one may or may not apply, I've seen no evidence either way.

* Insistence by the forces of the establishment that
it provides the best of all possible worlds. - Well when a society has been instituionaly (not technologicaly) stagnant for millenia and enforces the status quo with instant vicious reprisals I'd say they're 'insisting' the establishment can't get better.

The entire education system is based on making sure no-one wnats change and to produce malleable citizens who don't question orders. Think about it you're brought up to put others first and serve the common good. But who decides the common good? Nobles and Praetor of course! And the praetor's orders are final. You can't question the great leader, this systems worked for generations don't question it!

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

What I'm saying is that we ourselves don't know WHAT a true Utopia would be and THE ICARAN view not what I personally think a Utopia would be as I stated already.
And a Utopia after a while would simply be handed down from generation to generation after the first generation's hard work the rest would just get it "handed" to them so to speak. Which is another reason Icarans would see this as at the very least odd.

Okay gotcha http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Nope but don't automatically assume that this is "oooh evil" because our own ancestors lived this way for MILLENIA without minding.

*Smashes head into wall repeatedly*

And you just keep proving how arrogant we "Democratics" can be that we automatically think our way is the only way, I will say this AGAIN Icara has never EVER EVER had a chance for democracy and after millenia of order and stability Democracy now seems like chaos:

And El_Phil Democracies are hardly stable as we see even here in the United States where people constantly fight over what is "right" in politics and what do we get in return? Political corruption a President very few trust but none can do anything about, a Govenrment that dictates what we can and can not do.

Does this sound good? No but it's the way all Democracies are bound as history shows Democratic goverments always fall it's just a matter of time before they rise again after their fall that changes. After Athens it took Millenia for a "Democracy" to come back, and Don't point out the Roman Republic because that was also run only by the elite as only the Equestrians (SP?) were allowed to vote for the Senate.

Propoganda is the standard of all governments it's just a matter that OUR propoganda is good and THEIRS is bad. Our beloved democracies (and I say that sincerely) use propoganda at the drop of a hat so again you can not judge an entire civilization by this.

You can question the government and they won't shoot you they just won't like you and your neighbors may beat the holy living hell out of you.
REBELS are shot and CULT LEADERS are shot because they are seen as traitors who can not be redeemed.

That again is the view of someone who has been raised in a democracy to belive that this is evil and wrong and ooooh the horror.

Icarans don't worship the Praetor and you simply changed course from that to basiccally rephrasing "They Worship the Praetor" they see him as a figurehead who is to be trusted and followed yes and for the most part yes his word is law except that he also has the Nobles to run the day to day affairs of state with him so in that way he's not much different from a King of old Europe.

The Three Kings WERE bad and corrupt which is why Icarans readily accepted the Praetorian line in the first place and if you read the intro you'd know that wouldn't you?

Now I love how you keep throwing at the line "Traditional" well I hate to say this YET AGAIN they are NOT AMERICANS their traditions are from a different culture and for the most part their Traditional life has not changed much at all except for where technology/time is involved.

"The Path" was always the Icaran faith so you are making a MAJOR assumption in assuming it is a creation of the state. How do you think the Praetor was seen as "Chosen By God" if the faith was not already there before he took power? In fact "The Path" helped the Praetorian line run Icara because they did NOT have to enforce a religion that was against the nature of Icarans.

And if you want to call it a "State Religion" simply because it is what the bulk of Icara follows then you could easily call Christianity a "State Religion" in the West at it is the primary religion of the west, or you should call Buddhism a "State Religion" in Asia because the bulk of Asians are buddhist etc.

Yes Icara has outlawed all but a few religions but it's also because those religions have never had a good reputation for breeding "stable" individuals in their view. And also because lets face it when the bulk of a Population is homogenous in both race and religion then you are bound to get some intolerance towards other religions.

Nope not really.

And yet you said they were not traditional http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Let's face it your starting to tug at strings here, I have clearly said that the Empire has evolved over the Millenia, just at a slower rate then that of what our societies would.

I also clearly stated earlier that the closer to the "Modern Empire" you'd get in history the less "viscious" the government becomes.

They are TRADITIONALISTS for the most part because it ties them to their heritage, it ties them to their ancestors and to their past. Tradition has dictated the development of their institutions yes but why is this automatically bad?

Look at America we have NO CULTURE we are pretty much a melting pot who's citizens for the most part don't know any of the traditions of their ancestors or their great grand parents even. I mean I've met a lot of people who don't even know WHAT heritage they are from.

To an Icaran THAT would be a bad thing because it would be seen as a disgrace and an insult because you can't be bothered having traditions that tie you to the past of your people. So what we see as "Progress" they see as forgetting the importance of the past.

LOL Yeah here you're right sort of their educational system IS DESIGNED to create citizens who beleive in the greater good over themselves, of the survival of the government (I.e the icaran People not just the politicos) over their own hide.
They are in a dangerous world surrounded by hostile powers, and as they go out into space they meet a bunch of terrifying aliens who are not the friendly little buggers we thought they'd be.

So yeah the Icarans don't want change because the last thing you need when your Empire is forever at risk of invasion is to have internal strife as a hotheaded little punk with a new political idea decides to come along and cry "Vive Le Revolution".

If you haven't noticed most revolutions end badly for both parties invovled.

And like I said El_Phil you yourself show signs of the same intolerance you accuse them of having because you can't even acknowledge that for a culture with a totally UNAMERICAN way of doing things might not be evil and corrupt and exploiting it's citizens.

It's funny how that intolerance toward a new way of doing things can cut both ways ain't it?


The point I have in making Icara is to create a society that has both good and bad qualities like ANY society and that has a different view of how to run things then the "Lets go Democracy!" way of things we always see in Sci-Fi.

Icara is not the "Galactic Empire" where anyone who questions the status quo is shot, they are shunned yes just like anyone in the US who goes "Let's go Communism!" would be.

We've been "brainwashed" to belive Democracy is the greatest form of government ever if you want to look at it the way you are looking at the way Icarans are raised to belive their government is the best way to go.

How often do you hear a President of the US going "Yah know Communism, Socialism they sound okay to me." it doesn't happen so that's State Insistance that "Democracy is the only way and it has been for centuries so shut up and don't question that."

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

SO should I take my underground forces and take over tho world yet??? :~

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

Normally, viscosity increases over time. If you want your government to become less viscous, try turning the heat down low and stirring in a little water.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

lol Dogscoff http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif okay I forgot to spellcheck there.

My point is they become less VICIOUS as time goes by.

Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
 

Well after losing an entire huge post this will be less plithy. Arsefez.

In short. I'm not American and I'm no fan of the US system for a lot of reasons. Not that the British system is perfect mind. That Icara is unamerican, so what? If anything that's a good thing in my book.

That's not the reason I consider it dystopian and evil. It's the personality cult of the leader, huge constantly watching security force, the unquestionable Praetor, the constant indocrination and the intolerance of all but the 'correct' way.

Finally history shows people want their opinion listened to, from the senates of Rome and Athens, through Magna Carta and the Italian city state charters to the colonial revolts of the last century. They're just the obvious ones, there are hundreds of others.

To have reached a stage were no citizens wants to influence how their country is run is no easy feat, yet Icara apparently has. At what cost to free will is the question?