.com.unity Forums - OT: Illegal immigrants sue Wendy's...

I should also explain my position better: I do fully agree that if someone breaks the law (ie: if they are in a country illegally), then they should face the legal consequences of their actions. The law is the law. From that perspective, in no way do I condone illegal immigration.

However, I often get the impression that those who believe illegals should be punished are forgetting that people are people. I'm a big fan of Kant, and I fear that we often regard 'foreigners' as means to ends, not as people in and of themselves. So, when we talk about illegals in the US, we often reduce them to statistics and make economic or sociological arguments about how there presence takes away taxes, or jobs, or provides us with cheap labor, or is an affront to our soveriegnty, and so forth. I find this inherently concerning because at the end of the day, illegal or not, these are *people* who possess the same hopes, dreams, fears, and loves that we all do. And if we take a purely legalistic approach to this problem, and ignore the very real human aspects of it, we risk treating them as means, not ends. We risk losing what makes America a "city on a Hill" that embodies an ideal and hope that we have always espoused (much as I think we already have with the whole torture thing).

Where I live (Bahrain) I am involved with a migrant workers' protection charity. They've got lots of terrible stories about migrants who come here to work - as day laborers, forced prostitutes, or maids. The abuse and hell that these people put up with is so awful its brutal. And it comes, fundamentally, from treatingf them as means not ends. For example, there are lots of day laborers here who come over from India to work in construction so they could send money back to their families. They are brought over by unscurpulous construction companies who, upon their arrival, confiscate their passports and don't get them 'legal' worker's permits. They work twelve hours a day 6 days a week, and half days on fridays in the brutal heat (trust me, very hot here) for about 50 US dollars a month. If they are injured, they have no recourse. They can, and often are, fired without cause, when the company needs to cut back expenses. They have no rights, and the companies do not protect them at all.

So, three of these day laborers were walking 'home' to their shack one day and a police officer stopped them and asked for their papers. They of course had none, and they weren't allowed to contact their company (who probably would've denied it knew them anyways). So they were thrown in jail, without any access to a lawyer or anything. And trust me, jails in this part of the world are more often than not, death sentences. Without any money or habeas corpus rights, these men had no ability to challenge their imprisonment. They had no trial, or communication with their families or outside world.

They were kept in jail for twenty-seven years.

Finally, the charity I support raised enough money to fill out the paperwork to get them deported back to India. It cost something around a hundred US dollars. And twenty-seven years of their lives.

Now, one can say, well life's tough and then you die, there will be poor always pathetically struggling, that's just the nature of the world. But that is, to me, inherently immoral and antithetical to almost all religious beleifs. At the very least, people should be treated as ends in themselves, and we should acknowledge their dignity, accord them self respect, and strive to provide them with a minimum of rights and recourse.

Now, I'm not saying that "we Americans" don't try to do that, nor do I mean to imply that the posters don't either. But I think it's pretty clear that we could certainly do better. But even more important than that, to me, is that we recognize the inherent right to respect that all people deserve. If we fail to do that, then we are as bad as the worse country out there. At the end of the day, it is merely dumb luck that we were born where we were - there but for the grace of God go we. And as I get older, I realize more and more that what is important in life is not making money, or playing computer games, but striving for a better world. Eventually, I will be worm food - but I hope that when I am gone I will have changed the world, even a tiny bit, for the better. One key way to do that is by treating people as ends in themselves, not means.

And for these reasons, I agree with an amnesty program, by and large, and in some form or another. This is, ironically enough, one of the few remaining things I agree with Pres. Bush on anymore.

I hope this clarifies my position, and makes my passion about this and other subjects more understandable. And maybe, just maybe, I've planted a few seeds as well.

Thanks for reading this far.

AMF

EDIT:

Apparently, I was writing my post at the same time you were posting... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So in RE:

Quote:

Black_Knyght said:
...If he was that dedicated to finding out what they were it's an easy thing to do so. It just didn't seeme to me that was the case, and even less so as there are no plans to do anything with it.

In doing what I do I run across many people who'll challenge that illegal immigrants have such opportunities, without taking the time themselves to actually find out if this is true or not personally. ...[they]...rarely volunteer their own time and efforts though.

....I'm not angry at anyone, not by a longshot, and I was not implying anyone's opinion was less valid, only possibly less informed or sincere. And the only character aspersions I care to cast are the same ones I'd cast on everyone everywhere - If you're unhappy with society or feel people aren't getting treated the way they should, DO more about it and GRIPE or CHALLENGE less. Talk is easy, cheap, and in the end meaningless.

I would humbly suggest that, given the nature of listservs and forums, that to assume someone's positions or beleifs is likely to lead to mischaracterizations and projection of one's own preconceptions. I could go into great length as to why I don't think I am "less informed or sincere" or "rarely volounteer my own efforts" or so forth. IF you want to cast those aspersion "on everyone everywhere" then that's certainly your right, but you also have to be prepared for people who don't fit your preconceptions to take offense. I would humbly suggest that in our internet ago making assumptions only after getting evidence would lead to fewer misconceptions.

And it would run a lesser risk of insulting people, by implying that they are, for example, "less sincere."