Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

I suppose my point was mostly that anything anywhere near this cost tends to have *substantial* magic, and that the differences in power between having 6-8 paths in magic and having no magic was large enough that they were clearly and grossly overpriced.

And the jotun herse is probably the most damning comparison, since its (a) MA and (b) has just about everything going on that the chaos champions do at 1/3 their price.

But that's fine, we can play as is.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

A combined mod with the revised Chaos nation is attached.

I tend to agree with squirreloid about the costs of the chaos units (in fact, I think I said much the same thing in the thread to discuss the mod originally,) but those concerns do need to be counterbalanced, and I don't think we should hold up the game over it.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

I have a "name2spell: No such spell" error that causes the game to crash when trying to create a pretender god with the combined mod.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Yeah, sorry about that - have to combine the mods in the correct order or bad things happen. Gimme a minute to sort it out.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Well, that doesn't make any ****ing sense but this order works. Doublecheck all those #d Bretonnian nationals again to make sure that the script handled them right? I'm rather worried about extreme strangeness.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Oh god, is this a ****ing joke? Chaos gets 'Dark Citadel' everywhere - which is an admin 20 UW fortress type for 1200 gold. Seriously? A nation of high gold high resource units that are going to underperform for their cost - exactly what they needed was a high gold long build time fortress everywhere that has crappy administration.

Finally, I keep trying to make this work, but Chaos has so many systematic flaws its ridiculous. It really wants to be a nation of blessed troops, but it has no good way to actually bless them (no priests over H1, and they fail to bless all of *4* troops on a regular basis. A single prophet is not good enough). The non-sacred troops are either insufficiently good to even expand routinely or too resource intensive to field in sufficient mass to accomplish anything. And chaos has none of the good army-buffing schools to improve their performance. Not to mention its hard to mass anything when your real commander choices start at around 200g.

I think I've resigned myself to losing this - there is no way chaos is even really playable without a major overhaul that addresses army synergy and commander costs.

And i just took a look at Itza - Morale 13 Prot 18 mega tramplers with archers on top *and* mages that are ridiculously cheap for what they do? Those mages should be 1k and 2k gold respectively, at the least, and the trampler should probably be near doubled in price since it has no real weaknesses. (What are the disadvantages of elephants? Oh yeah, morale and protection... no such problems here, which is just amazing - and Itza's stegasaurs have a mere 3 enc on top of that so you can't even count on fatiguing them out). Then their scouts are 1g(!) and have glamour(?!?) and stealth *+65*(!!!), and their Ld40 commanders are a mere *20g* 16r with a *magic weapon* (!!!) and good stats. What the hell is this? I bet they get cheap castles somewhere too. They could probably win just by spamming castles and building as many of theose 20g commanders as they can - they don't even need equipment (which they could certainly be provided). They also have cheap researchers, H3 priests, and all of their melee units have magic weapons (!!!). And they get to mass them for peanuts. What *doesn't* Itza do well? I feel like rdonj discovering his enemy has immortal death summons of stupidly awesome.

You know, there was a lot of whining about the Lord of the Endtimes before we nerfed it, but honestly, that's about the only thing Chaos had going for it. (And even he would just die to virtually anything Itza chose to field.) Now he's a glorified 50pt chassis with a 125pt pricetag.

----------

I'll die on the field of honor, but i think this game could greatly benefit from a serious rebalancing of nations to some standard, probably somewhere in the Bretonnia end of the spectrum, although *any* one standard of balance, even Itza levels of crazy, would be acceptable so long as *all* nations were balanced there. (I think by Itza standards Chaos Lords are like 40-50g units, except for Tz who might rate 200g).

----------

Edit: I see we nerfed the stats of the Tz Lord at some point too. Well, now they aren't worth 500g anymore, so Chaos officially has *nothing* worth buying. At 500g it should be an SC out of the box. I suggested increase the price or nerf the unit, certainly not both. I feel like the things i thought were a little overpowered have been nerfed into near uselessness, and the things that are underpowered haven't really been improved at all.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

burnsaber/archeo/et al: What would you like me to compare to? I was trying to choose units near the same price point and with vaguely similar advantages - but there are no 400g units without magic. There are no 300g units without magic. Hell, I don't think there are any 200g units without magic. its hard to find decent comparisons when the units in question are so poorly designed that they fall vastly short of everything else remotely near their price range.

I could compare to the brettonian grail hero, which is much better than the Slaanesh lord at 150g less. (only Awe +1, but strictly better stats and *flying*, not to mention not cap only)

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Compare to some nation other than Jotunheim? Giant werewolves and hirdmen are *ridiculously* good thugs. I agree that Chaos is presently, probably weak enough that it won't be fun for Squirreloid. Given how long we're taking anyway I think it's reasonable to take 1 day and make the game at least kinda fair for Squirreloid:
* Lord of Khorne -> 100 gp, lose the exhaustion
* Lord of Slaanesh -> 200 gp, H3, stealthy
* Lord of Nurgle -> 150 gp, H2
* Champion of Khorne -> 80 gp, lose the exhaustion
* Champion of Slaanesh -> 100 gp, H1, stealthy
* Champion of Nurgle -> 100 gp, H1
* Chaos Cultist -> 40 gp
* Chosen of Khorne -> 60 gp, no exhaustion
* Chosen of Slaanesh -> 75 gp, stealthy
* Chosen of Nurgle -> 60 gp
* Chosen Chaos Knight -> 60 gp
* Chaos Knight -> 30 gp
* Foo Chaos Warrior -> 12 gp
* Marauders -> 9 gp

That said, I think you could make the current army work just fine as all Tzeentch all-the-time. Ethereal heavy inf. are *insane*.

Fortress should be a Jewelled City in his horribly decadant capital, and then Citadels (probably the best all around fort in the game) everywhere else.

In the long run, I think Chaos should probably kill population like the evil LA powers?

Itsa is certainly good, but those huge mages have no slots. Compare to an archtheurg -
costs 380, has 7 total picks, maxes out at 4A3B2C1D.
vs
costs 650, has 10 total picks, maxes out at 3A3B2C2D2E2F

I think that's pretty fair. He's not capital only, he's not old, and is certainly somewhat better overall, but those lizardmen are a poor substitute for Legionaires, and the shaman cost more than communicants.

Stegadons cost 2.5x as much as an elephant. I think elephants are better.

I agree that Itsa is much better than Chaos in this setup.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

Wow, some of those changes do seem a bit over the top. Exhaustion on lords of khorne in particular is a killer. I have a few ideas for you though squirrel, I'll pm some of the effective expansion parties I've come up with.

As to itza, they don't get anything other than 1400 gold forts, so you do sort of have them beat there. On the other hand, their forts all have a decent admin value. Quite a bit less defense though. Having magic weapons on all their saurus (but not skinks) is a pretty major advantage. But I wouldn't say that you could build an army of unequipped saurus veteran thugs and win the game. They are a bit cheap for how good they are, but even playing NI, it's hard to give up a skink priest for a mere commander. And 1-2k gold for slann? I really hope you're joking, I should show you my turn file for tourmaline and let you see how often those 4th gen slann end up with anything resembling decent paths. Getting anything above level 2 costs a fortune. That said, I can appreciate your frustration. The old chaos seemed a little overpowered to me, but comparing them to some of your competition now, I can certainly see how you could question your chances.

As to what Itza doesn't do well - forge, use death magic, and kill immortal SCs :D. They also don't really make very good thugs, though perhaps they make decent anti-thugs.

Re: Sign of the Hammer - A Warhammer Mod Game.
 

I like the oldbloods - if their forts didn't cost 1400 a pop, they'd be a light thug option