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Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.

9 of the 22 neo-generic pictures ready.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>12>ResourceStation: I think in Devnullmod this is actually a station rather than a ship, so I propose this name rather than ResourceShipLarge. Also, we have to consider mods other than the ones discussed here (Including future mods). They may well prefer to have their mining hulls as stations rather than ships.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I checked DN vehicle size again, it's called mining base, but it's in a ship hull and has maxengines=2. It's a ship. A resource station picture sound good, maybe it can look like a base, or be a 23rd pic.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>15>BaseOutpost<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I vote for Warstation as suicide_junkie suggested.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>20>TroopInfantry: I think we should call it either TroopInfantry (For alphabetical reasons) or just Infantry (Most acurate description), rather than InfantryTroop as in Andres' post.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's what I was thinking about, thanks for correcting me.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>E>Distribution: So as I understand it the Neo-Standard will consist of a program (with supporting text & ini files) and maybe a few dozen pictures. That would make it what... half a meg when zipped? Should we put it in with each mod or distribute seperately, with each mod carrying just a neovehiclesize.txt or what?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I propose creating a neo-standard package, including the program, whatever inis needed, generic and original shipset pics, and a neo-vehiclesizes for all mods discussed here. Maybe even a new and simple mod that just adds the new sizes.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
generic images ready
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yoink! That was quick!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
It's a ship. A resource station picture sound good, maybe it can look like a base, or be a 23rd pic.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm. OK. Personally I think 2 resource images is enough. I would vote for a ship and a station rather than 2 ships. Look at P&N, when that had resource hulls, he used one of each.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Warstation
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That gets my vote too.
I like the idea of an "exmaple" mod as well=-)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Lost source code
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's a shame=-( It was just an idea...

OK, I'm about to post an introduction / recap to this thread, then I'm going to start crossposting to some other threads, mailing pople and generally try to get some interest. After all the neo-standard won't b much good without some more shipset ppl.

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SE4 Code:
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/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.

This post is for anyone wondering what the hell this is about. Please correct me if anything here is wrong. It's also my way of getting my head around it=-)

First up I should point out that the neo-standard is nothing to do with Hadrian Aventine's neoverse or ZeroAdunn's neo-mod, although I'm hoping they'll both participate. The word "neo" just sounds cool, that's all=-)

Here's a brief explanation of what this thread is all about.
We are creating what we call (so far) the neo-standard, which is an expansion on Malfador's standard ship list (escort, frigate etc.) We want to include things like Massive fighters, Worldships and infantry. Modders can choose tp comply with the standard so that their mods will be compatible with a greater number of shipsets, and vice versa.

Here's a not so brief explanation of what this thread is all about.
A bunch of us have noticed that there are an awful lot of mods out there which use non-standard ships sizes in their vehiclesize.txt files. The trouble is that when adding new vehicle classes, modders are limited to 2 options:

A> Create additional images for the generic shipset. The game defaults to these if a shipset doesn't have a particular ship image. Pirates and Nomads uses this method with it's battlemoon. The advantage is that shipsets creators can make race-specific images for the extra shipsizes. The drawback is that generic images tend to look out of place in the middle of another shipset.

B> Different classes of ships share the same image. For example, in Devnull mod, both the frigate and corvette currently use the same image. Although these images fit in better than generics, the disadvantage is that you end up with two classes of ship looking exactly the same.

So we have come up with a new solution which should give the advantages of both options without the disadvantages:
First of all, we have identified those extra images which need to be added. We've done this by comparing Devnullmod (recently resurrected by GeoSchmoe), Andres Lescano's Star Wars mod, Ultimate Mod, Pirates and Nomads and Zero Adunn's Neomod.
We've come up with a list of around 20 extra images which should cover most of the probable additions to the vehiclesize.txt

This list, when finished, will be the basis of the neo-standard.

Obviously these are just images, and do not dictate what properties the actual ship has. For example, the Pirates and Nomads Battlemoon will use the same picture as Andres' Death Stars. They're not the same ship, but they look similar enough. Modders can use the images however they like, but we have tried to use unambiguous and descriptive names which will provide a rough guideline for modders and shipset creators alike, so that there will be a certain level of consistency.

Next, Andres and I will create generic images for all of the classes on the list. Modders will then be able to refer to non-standard filenames in the knowledge that they won't ever create a "file not found" error. This gives the advantages of option A above.

Now the clever bit: To avoid the disadvantages of option A, we copy and rename existing images: For example, Phong_Escort is copied to Phong_Scout and so on. This provides the advantages of Option B.

This will create something in the region of 400-500 extra images on a standard installation. Someone like Andres who has over 130 races installed would have up to 150 megs' worth of new data created.
Obviously no one wants to download all that, so S_J will write a cool little program to do all the work locally. After all, everything you need to create all those extra images is already on your computer.
If you still don't fancy having all that extra data filling up your hard drive, just don't run the program. Until the program is run, compliant mods won't require the extra images: Each compliant mod will supply 2 Versions of the vehiclesize.txt file, one using standard images and one using neo-standard. The program replaces the standard file for the neo-standard one.

The advantages of the Neo-standard are obvious:
1> Shipset creators can create as many images for a shipset as they like. In theory, the program could be configured so that it can build a whole (but rather boring) shipset out of just one image. Obviously we want shipset creators to create more, rather than less than the old standard though.
2> Shipsets designed for one specific mod (ie just enough images for Star Wars and nothing more) will suddenly be compatible, or at least partially compatible, with loads of mods.
3> Mods with extra ship sizes will look prettier. By tapping into the Neo-standard, they will gain access to a host of shipsets with images that will work in their mod. At the same time, the Neo-Standard does not restrict a modders' freedom in anyway. They can use what they want to use and ignore the rest. They might neo-standard images alongside images which aren't part of *any* standard.

We welcome input and co-operation from any modders and shipset creators. This standard can only be only as good as the mods and shipsets that participate.

Thanks for your time=-)

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.

20 new classes seems like a lot, but i like the idea. Heck once the list is finalized i'll try to upgrade the vandron and the hevordah to the new...i mean neo standard.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.

This is very good idea. I will try to find some time to make new pics for Toron and Aquilaeian shipsets when the list is ready.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.

Ok a couple more pics. Dogscog promises he'll help me complete the generic shipset, looks like we're going to have it complete soon.

We already have a set of 22 pictures if you want to start working on your shipsets. A few sizes may be added or removed but this is how it looks now.

1>Scout - smaller than escort
2>Corvette - between escort and frigate (or rename the frigate corvette and make a new frigate)
3>DestroyerHeavy - between destroyer and light cruiser
4>CruiserHeavy - between cruiser and battlecruiser
5>DreadnoughtHeavy - between dreadnough and baseship
6>Baseship - very big base sized ship
7>BaseshipHeavy - even bigger ship
8>WorldShipSmall - planet sized ship
9>WorldShipMedium - bigger Version of worldship
10>WorldShipLarge - even bigger Version of worldship
11>ResourceShip - resource miner ship
12>ResourceStation - resource miner station
13>CarrierTiny - smaller carrier
14>CarrierMassive - bigger carrier
15>Warstation - base between battlestation and starbase
16>ColonyShipLarge
17>TransportTiny - smaller and probably faster transport
18>FighterHuge - bigger fighter
19>FighterMassive - even bigger fighter
20>TroopInfantry - Human sized troop
21>TroopHuge - very big troop
22>StellarManipBarge - big weaponless ship

The Neo-Standard Picset needs a homepage. Updating what is in Dogscoff's web page could be a good start, then we could add the descriptions posted here, the generic pictures I'm making(like examples beside each size), and the finished package for download. If you want I can host it in KDY.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.

ok thanks for the list. here are a couple of questions and comments
- why 3 classes of worldships i mean isn't one enough Why if you can destroy a planet with one size ship would you bother to build the bigger ones plus it would be easier to maks just one worldship pic
-why have a baseshipheavy if your gonna have world ships seeme like the same thing to me
- i can see having one more size of fighters but i think the massive fighter would be the same as the scout so either nix the scout or nix the massive fighter
- to me the transporttiny and carriertiny are pretty useless. i see the advantage of being a little faster but if your going to use fighters your not gonna use a tiny carrier and if you use troops same thing applies
- so i guess what i'm suggesting is getting rid of 7,8,9, and 10 and just making 1 worldship and getting rid of 13,17, and 19

only trying to make some suggestions that will compress the number of new pics we will have to make. I really think the neo-standard is cool but some of this stuff is a little overboard IMHO.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.

I have to agree with chewey that 3 worldships is a bit too much (is that used by a mod? SW maybe?). I do think the baseshipheavy is a good idea, though. So from dreadnought to superdreadnought to baseship to baseshipheavy to worldship seems a good progression.
- about massive fighter vs. scout: they might not be much different in size, but one is a ship and the other is a unit.
- I do like the idea of smaller carriers, one for each level of fighters, I assume. IMHO the smallest carrier in the stock Version is too big, anyway. Hehe, it's a nice way to get heavy mounts early, though http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif.
- smaller and faster transports seem like a good idea, too.

So except for the three deathstars/battlemoons/whatever this all sounds very good.

But heck, what do I have to say? I am neither a modder nor a shipset maker http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/tongue.gif. Just do as you feel best. This sounds very good and promising http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

Rollo

edit:typo

[This message has been edited by Rollo (edited 21 November 2001).]

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.

Six new images from baseship to battlemoon does seem like a lot, but it doesen't matter much to me.

We need to hear more from the pure gamers, other modders and shipset designers like Rollo.

Re: The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.

About worldships, yes they�re used in the SW mod that isn�t a very popular mod.
I think it should be ok to make only 1, but there�s plenty of space between the 2000kt heavy baseship and the theoretical limit of 65535 kt.

Thanks to my brother insistence I�m about to resurrect the Ultimate Vehicle Size Mod.
Anyone here played with it? For those not familiar with this mod it adds a massive number of new hull sizes what gives a complete new scale to the game, but adds no new components.
60 normal ships from 75 to 40000 kt
20 carriers from 130 to 31400 kt
20 bases from 250 to 65000 kt
5 colony ships from 240 to 370 kt
20 transports from 150 to 23500 kt
10 fighters from 7 to 56 kt
10 satellites from 40 to 200 kt
10 mines from 5 to 100 kt
10 troops from 1 to 100 kt
35 weapon mounts used by different type of vehicles
Some tests show that AI can easily be patched to work in the mod.
Of course that I don�t want a different picture for each of these 165 hull sizes, but I�ll make it use the standard for the smallest ones. And for the biggest ones, well they won�t be used that much and it doesn�t really matter if a 15000 kt ship looks the same as a 35000 kt one, if it is an enemy you know you�re in trouble.