Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Hey, When I got home I tried DRONES with SUBVERTERS in Gold Patch 2 simulator.

Seems the drones need a POINT BLANK or RAM movement order. Short, Optimal, or Max movement orders result in the drones running away.

note: A Capture Ship movement order is ignored and the secondary movement order (point blank) is used. That's why it works.

Three drones do good against a Battle Cruiser.
Six drones get killed before closing to point blank range against my Baseship. They bunch up into Groups of 3.

Comments anyone?

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Cirvol,
Master Computers have another issue, the Computer Virus. It has a fire rate of 3.
Use it with large mounts and a fire priority of fastest ship and it is devastating.

I would not use MC without a backup crew. I would not use Subverter without the Computer Virus. The double threat would cause opponents to spend space, minerals and build time. Where as good portion of my ships will be cheaply equiped with normal weapons.

[ January 04, 2003, 04:09: Message edited by: Wardad ]

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Capture Ship strategy only applies to Boarding Parties. Subverters are considered a normal weapon for the purpose of that strategy.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Subverters on drones would be much too evil with the way subverters currently work. It's too easy to over-whelm defenses with huge numbers of drones. Now, if you changed the way subverters work so it's not so 'all or nothing' then it might be reasonable. This would involve changing the way ship capture works, too.

I suggested a long time ago that ship capture should take more than one round. It should be more like planet capture is, with multiple rounds of combat and each side taking casualties before the issue is decided. (And, both side should be able to fire on a ship that is 'in dispute' so you could destroy your own ship rather than see it captured!)

If this were implemented, then the Subverter could convert a percentage of the crew instead of just having a percentage chance to totally succeed or fail. The loyal crew and the subverted crew could then fight it out as if the ship had been boarded. Boarding parties could be subverted, too, of course! Could boarding parties capture their own ship? Why not? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Yes, under some circumstances a ship could still be totally subverted in one round -- especially by multiple hits -- but with careful balancing of the power of the subverter this could be less common than it currently is while still preserving the effectiveness of the Subverter. In particular, the subverter on a drone or satellite should be much less powerful than the subverter on a ship. Then the many attacks possible with units could be properly balanced.

And there needs to be some sort of 'psychic damper' technology to reduce the effectiveness of the Subverter. Even if it's an artifact tech that is only occasionally available that's better than no defence at all.

[ January 04, 2003, 04:33: Message edited by: Baron Munchausen ]

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Not to rehash the entire of AS/Talisman/Uberweapon (like it's not going on anyway):
1) Build hundreds or thousands of smaller ships. The AS can only capture so many per combat. Swarm them to death.
2) Researching Talisman or AS costs a good deal of extra research. Getting both costs a horrendous amount of extra research. Your economy is unlikely to be able to support all those extra ships you're going to be stealing. If you're just going to scrap them, then why not blow them up in the first place? It's more efficient in a 25-30 turn combat.
3) As stated before, it takes a while to catch up to ships/fleets set at max range. An opponent with good strategies can pick you to death.
4) Use fighters. Sure, they can be slaughtered by PDC, but AS and Talisman already take up a lot of space. PDC just takes more away from your real weapons--and I'm sure you remembered to pack those as well, right?
5) Use swarms of small boarding party ships. They don't cost much, they build quickly, and it doesn't matter if you a few get subverted--you can kill them pretty quickly anyway. If the AS ship doesn't have a self-destruct, you get all that pretty weaponry. The AS chain-reaction effect is pretty well documented. If it does have a self-destruct, then it's mission accomplished anyway.

It makes no sense, BTW, to allow shields to block psychic crew conVersion. It's supposed to be something extra-material. I don't remember the descriptions for the other psychic weapons off-hand, but it may make some sense to allow those to be blocked by shields/armor.

In summary, of course AS + Talisman hurts your opponent--it's supposed to. After all, you're spending 3000 RP on it. They can spend 3000 RP on a whole lot of other things--propulsion experts, better SY rate, better maintenance reduction, better economy, better aggressiveness, etc... There is no perfect counter to any option (well, except for building nothing but colony ships and sensor sats); but there are ways to defeat any combo. It should be expensive to defeat the AS+Talisman combo, given its cost in RP.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Subverters are not all or nothing, esp. without mounts. If the damage is lower than 100, then there is a chance they fail (as the chance to convert equals the damage). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

While on the "it makes no sense" wagon, how exactly does one go about using psychic weapons from unmanned units like sats or drones? Do they "borrow" someone's brain and put it onboard? This is just plain weird. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

The mind is nothing more than a sophisticated system of electrical impulses. It could be replicated on a drone or something with enough study and time.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Either your ship is converted to the enemy, or it has no effect. They work or they don't. That's the definition of 'all or nothing'. If the crew could be subverted in increments you could have a much more interesting situation.

Re: New Strategy: Drones with Subverters !
 

Krsk, you made an excellent post. I would add two other options to combat these weapons.

1)Use engine destroyers - If you eliminate the Talisman/Subverter ship's ability to move, you may prevent it from closing to a distance where it can use this weapon. Now it can be eliminated by longer-ranged weapons without worry.

2)Use repulser beams - As with the above strategy, this might allow your ships to move in, strike and then push the Talisman/Subverter ship far beyond a range to move in and attack.

The combination of 1 and 2 would appear to work well.

I might have added Weapon Overloading weapons, but I have never really seen them used, and they do not seem worthwhile, given their poor range, limited damage and slow firing rate. Perhaps on starbases, satellites or weapons platforms (in Gold) this might be different.