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Re: My AI Design Q&A

Quote:

Originally posted by cybersol:
Problem/Bug 3a)
Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit to a “newer” Version of a ship that is in fact the same as the old Version? This results in ships being wasted just sitting there and trying to be retrofitted but failing because the ships are identical.

Not what I know of, but it is not a very big deal. It does not go for more than 3 turns per ship. It can be even used for AI advantage - AI does not benefit from ship training facilities - ships rarely stay over planet even for one turn. "identical retrofit" cause ships to hover over the planet with space yard. If your AI builds ship training facility there (mod construction_facilities file ! ) it can actually train ship crews http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: My AI Design Q&A

Quote:

Originally posted by oleg:
Problem/Bug 9) Solution
Absolutely ! AI religiously follows the build order specified in A_construction_facilities file. All you should do is to insert entry with "resupply" on every colony type that has "space yard". Regarding "resupply colony", it does not have to be only one per system. It is also specified in the same file. In fact, one my Proportion' AI build up to 5 resupply baces per system and space yards+resupply baces every time

I am learning a lot about modded AI's. I looked into your Puntherraian AI and I see "Emergency Resupply" calls for resupply bases. Looking at the proportions Facility.txt in the data folder I see resupply depots have been modded to have both the "Supply Generation" and "Emergency Resupply" ability. Unfortunately the unmodded resupply depots only have the "Supply Generation" ability. It seems the "Supply Generation" call is the one that is limited to one per system. So I see how you can get it all to work in proportions, but I can also see why it doesn't work for a TDM type AI.

Thanks for the information, oleg. All around that modification to facilities is definitely a novel way around the problem.

Quote:

Originally posted by oleg:
Problem/Bug 3a) Bug turned into advantage!
Not what I know of, but it is not a very big deal. It does not go for more than 3 turns per ship. It can be even used for AI advantage - AI does not benefit from ship training facilities - ships rarely stay over planet even for one turn. "identical retrofit" cause ships to hover over the planet with space yard. If your AI builds ship training facility there (mod construction_facilities file ! ) it can actually train ship crews

That is a great point because I am building ship training facilities right now (have not decided on fleet training yet though, your thoughts?). Just to let you know though, I have had a design that changes tech rarely stay over a planet for 10 turns before the design finally changed and the retrofit was successful.

[ June 15, 2003, 08:59: Message edited by: cybersol ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A

I do not think "supply generation" is limited one per system. Or is it ? Does AI treat "supply generation" as a some sort of system-wide ability ? I doubt it very much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: My AI Design Q&A

Quote:

Originally posted by Rollo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by oleg:
I do not think "supply generation" is limited one per system. Or is it ? Does AI treat "supply generation" as a some sort of system-wide ability ? I doubt it very much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

well, in standard SE4 the AI builds only one resupply depot per system. So yes, Suppply Generation does have some sort of hardcode like system wide facilities.
A very good thing to avoid excess facilities to save slots and resources, IMO.

Rollo<hr /></blockquote>I agree with you.
Honestly, I prefer that the AI retrofit the engines of a ship into a planet without Resupply Depot, than keep more than one Resupply Depot per system.

Re: My AI Design Q&A

Quote:

Originally posted by cybersol:
Still looking for novel solutions to the following AI bugs.

Problem/Bug 3a)
Is there anyway to stop the AI from trying to retrofit to a �newer� Version of a ship that is in fact the same as the old Version? This results in ships being wasted just sitting there and trying to be retrofitted but failing because the ships are identical.

Problem/Bug 3b)
A similar bug where ships that hit the 50% retrofit limit just sit there useless trying to retrofit but failing over and over again. This happens for a long time, sometimes they switch and try to retrofit at a different ship yard with the same result.

Problem/Bug 6)
As a human player I can design a ship with a small transport hull that has only 5 mine layer components and no cargo storage components but sull fulfills the 50% cargo requirement. Since the mine layers secondary ability is cargo storage and 5*30=150 and 150/300 >= 50% then this is a valid design. Is there a way to have the AI design this ship, or is a transport hull forced to have eight cargo storage components for the AI no matter what?
To prove this design works for a human player, do the following. Start up an unmodded game with yourself in command, create a ship design with a small transport hull. Fill with command and control and engines. The "50% of spaces must be used for cargo containers" warning won't let you create the design yet. No add only five mine layer components. The warning disappears, you can create the design now. You need zero cargo components to make this ship. Now try to get your AI to build that same ship. As far as I can tell it is impossible.

Problem/Bug 7)
The AI will retrofit a ship and then leave before it finished repairing all the damaged components it just created.
Since I've have been looking in more detail, I noticed a pattern the Last few time the AI has done this. It does the retrofit, waits a single turn for any repair work, then sends the ship off for duty. The ships then fly around damaged trying to perform their normal role like nothing is wrong with them.

Problem/Bug 8)
Most ships seems to understand when they are running out of supply except colony ships. Those are really important ships not to stop off and resupply before travelling across the entire quadrant. Is there any trick (before solar collectors make it unecessary) to get them to stop and resupply at a forward system and then go off and colonize.

Problem/Bug 9)
Any way to force the AI to do engine retrofits at planets with both a shipyard AND a resupply base? For instance, is there a way to get it to build a resupply base (even though it wants to put only one per system) on every planet with a shipyard?
Ships with supply storage components at least still have some supply, so this helps this problem some. The only really bad problem is then colony ships because as I mentioned above in 8), colony ships never try to resupply. Even if they retrofit engines at a non-resupply base and have only 500 supply from their supply storage they still head (very SLOWLY) accross the entire quadrant!

First all, want to say that I'm not claim to have the absolute TRUTH, right? But will try to answer your questions:

Bug/Problem 3).
Think doesn't exist a way to avoid this problem.

Bug/Problem 6).
Never liked the Transport hulls. Think is a question of taste!
Usually they're more slow moving, and slow to build than the standard
ships.
Then, my AIs use standard hulls to work as transport/layers/sweepers.
etc (also, I can include a few weapons that can help sometimes to extend
their life).
Question: for what do you want a Transport working as layer for
the AI??? Many times (specially in late game when the large mines are
slow to build), I saw the layers with a cargo of 5 or 10 mines...

Bug/Problem 7).
Design ships with Component Repairs, that will work as support ships in
your fleets. They will repair your ships.
If you are really worried about the crippled ships, then increase the
Repair rate when you design your AI...

Bug/Problem 8)
- Research Solar Collectors, think is fairly easy for the unmoded game.
- Before research this tech, you could use LC colony ships with many
supply components.
- Don't pick Ancient Race for the AI. If the AI doesn't know far systems,
will not try to colonize it!
- Don't allow to the AI sign Partnerships! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif For the same reason of above!

Bug/Problem 9)
Think already was answered.
In the unmoded doesn't exist a way to have more than 1 resupply facility
per system... and if you want my opinion, I like this way.

Re: My AI Design Q&A

Quote:

Originally posted by oleg:
I do not think "supply generation" is limited one per system. Or is it ? Does AI treat "supply generation" as a some sort of system-wide ability ? I doubt it very much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: My AI Design Q&A

Quote:

Originally posted by cybersol:
5) AI_CONSTRUCTION_VEHICLES.TXT. It seems in my experience that you get a more even distribution of ships if you add multiple copies of the exact same entry (colony ships in exploration for example). For example, build some colony ships, build some attack ships, build colony ships again to replace, build support ships, build colony ships again to replace, etc. My guess is that if the hardcode is at entry 12 in this file, then it goes to 13 when it finishes 12 without looking at 1-11 again until the next time it arrives at them by going around one at a time through the loop. How do you think it works?

Originally posted by cybersol:
5) I was just plain wrong. The construction_vehicles file reads from top to bottom inside the current state everytime it wants to construct something.

Well, the file doesn't work the way I thinking when I asked question five. MB and some further testing cleared it up though. Here is how it works. Every turn the AI goes to the top of the queue in construction_vehilces for whatever AI state you are in presently. "Exploration" for instance. It reads entry 1, adding whatever is needed to the build queue of some world. If you still have resources and more build queue slots then it goes to entry 2. So it starts at the top and goes down every turn. Thus a redundant call, say build ten colony ships at entry 1 and again at entry 4, has no value and is just redundant. Because every turn the first entry causes it to fill the build queues to have 10 colony ships total the second entry has no effect. But a second call to build 20 colony ships at entry 4 would then add 10 more if there were build slots available after 1-3.

I agree Cybersol, MOD PACKS need and most have Parameters for new additions of an AI.

To introduce a new AI that makes 5-10 Colonizers, starting from the First turn of the game, and with the other original AI is set for 3 for example, then, that at AI will be unbalanced. Having an adverse effect on the entire Mod ,and the Human Player will have a very tough time trying to compete for Planets if as you say; "this AI introduced 10 to 20 Colonizers", at jump.

For example, the only losses expect in the AI strategic State of Explore and/or Not Connected may be:

1: Bad Warp Point, in the extreme.
2: A black Hole type System
3: An improbable AI abandonment.
4: And most important the AI Colonizer dissolving into a Colony.

Please Consider this.

Se4 Default_AI_Construction_Vehicles
AI State := Exploration
Num Queue Entries := 15
Entry 1 Type := Attack Ship
Entry 1 Planet Per Item := 50
Entry 1 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 2 Type := Weapon Platform
Entry 2 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 2 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 3 Type := Satellite
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 4 Type := Mine Sweeper
Entry 4 Planet Per Item := 200
Entry 4 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 5 Type := Colonizer
Entry 5 Planet Per Item := 30
Entry 5 Must Have At Least := 2
~
~
Above may result, in a Burden to the Human Player or a Gas/Ice AI; if the above AI is Rock and has many Planets nearby. PPI = 30 resulting in 3 Colonizers at 4-6 Planets, 10 Colonizers when a Rock AI reachs 31 Planets
=================================================

With a Staggered Colonizer grouping, the results can be controlled for this AI, by the designer. For example: Proportions Abbidon_AI_Construction_Vehicles
Entry 1 Type := Missile Base
Entry 1 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 1 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 2 Type := Ship Yard
Entry 2 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 2 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 3 Type := Colonizer
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 4 Type := Ship Yard
Entry 4 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 4 Must Have At Least := 3
Entry 5 Type := Scout
Entry 5 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 5 Must Have At Least := 4
Entry 6 Type := Defense Ship
Entry 6 Planet Per Item := 80
Entry 6 Must Have At Least := 3
Entry 7 Type := Colonizer
Entry 7 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 7 Must Have At Least := 2
~
~
Entry 15 Type := Colonizer
Entry 15 Planet Per Item := 0
Entry 15 Must Have At Least := 3

The Colonizer (entry #3 :=1), (entry #7 :=2 ) and (entry #15 :=3) does not add up to a total of 6 Colonizers to be built at any times in the explore state. And it will be rare for this AI, to build another, until there is less then 3 colonizers in the Air and that will be at (entry #15) in this way the Abbidon will not to put a burden on the Human Player at any point in the Proportions Opening Game Explore State that this Abbidon AI will participate.
=
In the Abbidon illustration, the AI will want a First line defensive Weapons Platform (entry#1), followed by two Productive Shipyards (entry#2). Then the build of ONE Colonizer (entry#3) will be issued to the (HW Ship yard) at this point as set up by myself in v1.78 se4 Proportions Mod.

With the third BSY (entry #4) and four Scouts (entry #5) following this one Colonizer (entry#3), the Colonizers first Planet to Colonize has a high probability to be in the Home System allowing for some Quick Production or a Racial Facility to boast that Home System, primarily.
If this was the Case, the Colonizer did land in the Home System then another Colonizer for an existing total of ZERO, will be Issued for the next available BSY, (v1.78 se4) to fulfill the plan of ONE at this point in the Explore State, AI Game.

Now, three Defense ships (entry #6) will be built as the four Scouts (entry #5) are exploring nearby Systems. The 3 Defense ships WILL defend the Colony Built by the First Colonizer, and will also yield and maintain a boost in Happiness for this new Colony.

By the time, the next Planet to Colonize by the AI is found from the tasks of the pre built Scouts (entry #5). The Colonizer built, either by the; On Station or Replaced, Colonizer (entry #3) or the newly introduced second Colonizer (entry # 7) the expansion process is well under way, and can be Controlled with balance for all AI race types; whether Rock, Gas or Ice by the AI designer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also, please refer to Proportions; Rock type, Cue Cappa...
------
Note: Reference to v1.78 se4, is that the Priorities for the AI Home World, switch to the AI Unit Build File, may have changed in v1.84 se4, changing the initial Construction sequence of that Abbidon Spring 2002, Vehicle Build File.
-------

I believe multiple Type Ship and Base entries, if thought out and tested, is very effective in the process that Aaron Hall has made available to the AI designers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 17, 2003, 16:37: Message edited by: JLS ]

Re: My AI Design Q&A

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rollo:
well, in standard SE4 the AI builds only one resupply depot per system. So yes, Suppply Generation does have some sort of hardcode like system wide facilities.
A very good thing to avoid excess facilities to save slots and resources, IMO.

Rollo

I agree with you.
Honestly, I prefer that the AI retrofit the engines of a ship into a planet without Resupply Depot, than keep more than one Resupply Depot per system.<hr /></blockquote>I agree in general you want one resupply depot per system on your normal colony types. Sometimes you may want an additional one though, say on a construction yard type planet. The ability in proportions to call for the system ability with Supply Generation and for extras by Emergency Resupply is probably the most flexible solution if you are modding the data files.

Re: My AI Design Q&A

Quote:

Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
First all, want to say that I'm not claim to have the absolute TRUTH, right? But will try to answer your questions:

Bug/Problem 3).
Think doesn't exist a way to avoid this problem.

Bug/Problem 6).
Never liked the Transport hulls. Think is a question of taste!
Usually they're more slow moving, and slow to build than the standard
ships.
Then, my AIs use standard hulls to work as transport/layers/sweepers.
etc (also, I can include a few weapons that can help sometimes to extend
their life).
Question: for what do you want a Transport working as layer for
the AI??? Many times (specially in late game when the large mines are
slow to build), I saw the layers with a cargo of 5 or 10 mines...

Bug/Problem 7).
Design ships with Component Repairs, that will work as support ships in
your fleets. They will repair your ships.
If you are really worried about the crippled ships, then increase the
Repair rate when you design your AI...

Bug/Problem 8)
- Research Solar Collectors, think is fairly easy for the unmoded game.
- Before research this tech, you could use LC colony ships with many
supply components.
- Don't pick Ancient Race for the AI. If the AI doesn't know far systems,
will not try to colonize it!
- Don't allow to the AI sign Partnerships! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif For the same reason of above!

Bug/Problem 9)
Think already was answered.
In the unmoded doesn't exist a way to have more than 1 resupply facility
per system... and if you want my opinion, I like this way.

Bug/Problem 3a)
Yeah the only solution I see is to use designs with rapidly changing tech so they will always be different. I have done this for now.
Bug/Problem 3b)
You could make sure the lowest tech Version of a ship and the highest tech Version of a ship class are with 50% cost of each other. But this TOO limiting in the mid-game IMHO. So I am just going to live with this one for now.

Bug/Problem 6)
I would like to use transport extra hull size in the early game. But I would like them to design the type of ship I can build as a human. For instance, a medium transport hull with 16 mine layer components and one cargo storage. If it can find enough mines it can mine a warp point almost to maximum in just 3 trips. When you still only have LC tech. They are only as fast as a battleship though.

Bug/Problem 7).
Yeah, I have repair based support ships. But those do not help colony ships, scouts, layers, etc.

Bug/Problem 8)
Thanks, really good suggestions here. I also had decided to move solar supply research forward and add significantly more supply to my larger colony ships. The supply helps a lot, I highly recommend it for bigger maps with fewer players. Your AI will easily out expand another AI that has its colony ships bogged down.

Re: My AI Design Q&A

Quote:

Originally posted by JLS:
I believe multiple Type Ship and Base entries, if thought out and tested, is very effective in the process that Aaron Hall has made available to the AI designers

I agree, and as your example illustrates it is critical to control and properly formulate the initial exploration and not connected construction queues. In the unmodded game, though, I recommened a lot more colony ships because the humans will be expanding rapidly as well. Most AI modders put some attention into early construction already, though.

What I have not seen as much is using these same capabilities to better handle the various resource bonus games available. I like the idea of copying the entire heart of the build queue multiple times, doubling production for each copy. This better allows the AI to build up even force compositions in both the zero bonus and higher bonus states. I've seen this build up limited to attack ships in most TDM type AI's. IMHO, why not extend the idea and build up the whole construction queue.